KOP recieved 11 days late
 

Rookie Team 3368 recieved thier KOP yesterday, eleven days after Kickoff, they are located in Bosnia, customs was the hold up. Should FIRST extend thier build deadline 11 days?

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I think they should. They horrible to get your kop 11 days after kickoff. At least give them a 11 day grace period for the 11 days they lost.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I do not think they should. Even if their kit was late, the beginning of build season is more about design and strategy than it is cutting metal.

As it is, the fabrication rules this year do allow quite a bit of work to continue even after the ship date - this should help ease the 11 days without a kit.

Still sucks that it got there so late.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

It's my understanding from talking with mentors from different international teams, that this can happen. They receive their KOP later than the teams here in the US that don't have to have the KOPs shipped.

Teams learn to work with that and it is never easy. Teams in other countries may also have difficulty receiving the game piece in a timely fashion.

Keep in mind though, that teams here have faced difficulties during build season. I remember teams in regions who didn't have access to their shop because of weather conditions that cancelled school for several days, forcing the teams to have to wait.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I think so, because here in Brazil, some seasons our KoP came to us in the third week!!!!

Since last year, one person of #1860 travels to Manchester to get the KoP!!
It's complicated....

Good Luck guys!

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

If they got the game on time then I definitely don't think their deadline should be extended by the full 11 days.

Many teams use the first week or more to design their robots.

I'd say call the first week design time and give them 4 extra days.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I don't think there is a need to extend the deadline. While the build season is a daunting task, there is not much you need the kit for in the first week or so. As a rookie I would bet the hardest part is getting their control system going but since you don't have to ship that it shouldn't be an issue.

Getting extra days effectively allows for an extra 2 weeks of brainstorming the problem. I think there is something to learn from dealing with issues that are beyond your control. Additionally 11 days would allow them to see the first week of regionals before they ship allowing them to directly implement design changes based on things they see.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

Exactly Jane!
Some games like Lunacy we hadn't balls and the floor material to try our robot!!
A normal importation from USA takes 2 weeks at minimum to come here!

I have no doubt that this is most hard!!!

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

This is an example of what I mentioned in my initial post.

Hi Rafael!:) I posted this before reading your response.

This is a thread that Tonya Scott started when things were so bad weatherwise in Oklahoma in 2007.

These are only 2 examples - there are more, and all discuss the constraints and difficulties they have to face. It is one of the reasons that I stick with FIRST. I have tremendous respect for teams like these, and what they go through and do, to make it possible for their teams to compete at the events.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

Just yesterday our team captain, a mentor, and I were talking about how awful it would be if something like the ice storm had hit during build season. Our mentor responded that storms like that have happened, and FIRST has pushed the ship date back because of it. I don't know anything more specific than that, but customs are something FIRST can foresee, as opposed to a storm.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

FIRST has, in the past redefined ship date in light of extreme weather conditions, however, i doubt they will do it for a single team.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

Honestly, we haven't even youched our KoP yet....i could see if you liker, wern't able to see the kickoff video untill then, but a lot of work can still be done before you get teh KoP

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

As I recall, when the ship date was changed it was because the storm was on ship day. Either UPS wasn't coming to pick up robots, or the school was closed and locked up tight so the team didn't have access to be able to ship.

I concur with the others, this is a hazard for international teams and they adjust to it.

By the way, they're competing in Isreal. If they delay shipping for 11 days, they only have 8 days before the start of competition. They probably need all 19 days to get the bot from Bosnia to Isreal.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

It's actually been changed twice. 2003 was weather as noted above. Pretty much the entire Northeast couldn't get to their robots, and if they could, FedEx couldn't. (CA teams enjoyed the bonus time...)

In 2004, the deadline was extended for all teams due to massive KOP issues. A lot of teams that year had missing parts, or something like that, even though they all got the KOP.

It's never been changed because one team, or one country, or anything like that got a KOP over a week after Kickoff.

To give some hope, one of the 2005 World Champs didn't cut metal for their custom frame until the end of Week 4/beginning of Week 5. Other teams were getting their custom frames back from powdercoating at that time. You should be using any time without a KOP to brainstorm, design, and plan for manufacturing. That way, when you get the KOP, everything falls into place and you can build in a week or two.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

Does everyone remember the extension due to snow a few years back? It may not be necessary to give them all 11 days back but there should be some time given for not being able to design without parts in their hands.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

But we are talking about a rookie team in another country!!

They need to familiarize with system and softwares as soon as possible!
Imagine a rookie team that never had seen a Labview Interface, for example....
How long do you think they will take to learn how to use the software??

I think that they will need at least one week to learn how to manipulate the software!!!

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

The only thing that strikes me about this as being a special case is that they're a rookie team, in Bosnia. I don't know of any Bosnian veteran teams that could help them out.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

Not to kill the thread, but everyone needs to face a little reality. FIRST is not going to extend the deadline for a team just because the KOP arrived late. Ain't gonna happen. No way. No use in even talking about it.

There have been some very rare instances where the deadline has been extended due to truly extreme circumstances. Late arrival of the KOP is not one of those reasons.. The Israel and Brazil teams deal with late kit arrivals every year (and the delays they contend with have been much worse than 11 days), and their deadlines are not extended. So it is not reasonable to expect that it will happen here. To their perpetual credit, the Israeli and Brazilian teams always find a way to work around the late arrival of their kits, and still show up with competitive robots. And, more importantly, they have shown year after year that even if their kits show up late they are still able to extract real value and a positive impact out of their experience, no matter what the robot construction limitations may be.

-dave



.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I would be opposed to an extension past the Week1 competition.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

Any deadline change would result in some sort of disparity between this team and all of the others—of course, receiving the KOP late is a significant disparity in its own right, especially for a rookie team which is likely to have depended on its contents to perform even cursory design and prototyping work.

Something like this should depend on why the delay occurred. If the team was allowed to register after the deadline as a courtesy, there may not have been enough time to handle the logistics. On the other hand, if they were not a late registrant, I think FIRST should probably have anticipated that shipping might not be straightforward. Assuming the team registered on time, and is paying for shipping (as teams can do, if they're not picking it up at a kickoff event), timely receipt of their materials would be a wholly reasonable expectation.

There's also the question of whether someone didn't fill out the required forms or customs manifests, or didn't do so in the right language—it's not improbable that the team and/or FIRST could have made an innocent error there. I'm not sure how Bosnia handles these things, but even when dealing with Canada-U.S. shipping, it's important to itemize the contents, indicate the value, and describe the expected use (especially if not for resale).

I suspect this is one of those times when you want to just pay a customs broker to handle everything for you—if that's what FIRST did, and it still arrived late, there's probably not much that can be done, except to ship earlier next year.

I wouldn't be opposed to a short extension, if it was clear (to FIRST) that this wasn't the team's own fault, but a full 11 days is a bit too optimistic. If FIRST is unwilling to contemplate the possibility of an extension of any sort, then perhaps a partial refund is in order—certainly at least the cost of shipping.


Now, on the subject of late kit arrivals every year, that's simply unacceptable. When you understand the problem (because it happened last year), and still can't avoid it, you're doing it wrong.

In terms of a long-term resolution to this issue, maybe there could be a note in the list of deadlines explaining that registrants from outside North America who haven't paid by early November should not expect their KOP to arrive in-country by the kickoff date. If the registrants do pay early, FIRST would have an extra month to put together an early shipment of whatever KOP parts it has on hand at that point, and the team would get the bulk of its materials on time. At least this way, the teams would be forewarned, and have the option to resolve it. (It's not totally fair, because they'd have to raise funds faster than everyone else, but at least it doesn't interfere with the build season.)

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I suppose the biggest part of the difficulty is that the GDC doesnt want these teams to get their kit AHEAD of kickoff, lest a dishonest team open it, and learn something vital about the game (game piece, anyone?) and disclose it to the community on here, for example. Co-ordinating ship dates so things arrive somewhere on a specific day is not easy when using big international shippers like FedEx. This is the very reason that for us Canadians buying off Amazon, for example, we're quoted 9-15 days. They have no idea when it's going to get here.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I don't think that is a big concern. I mean, people put the field together for remote Kickoffs and those people keep their mouth shut in the day or so before Kickoff, so I don't think they hold back the KOPs in fear of people opening them and finding out about the game.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

Actually, this problem is mostly unavoidable. Customs officers can't clear a shipment before it arrives, and the evaluation period can not be anticipated. I can't begin to tell you how many times radios were received long after build season or not at all, thus preventing teams from properly practicing driving their robot. Every design challenge has unexpected difficulties outside of your control. Late shipments are one of them.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

Yeah, that really sucks. :ahh: But, unfortunately, FIRST will most likely not extend their time. Good luck anyway! ;)

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I think that it would be reasonable for those that received their KOP late to get an extension on the missing parts deadline but not much more than that. If our KOP came more than a weekend late like it doeds now I would be sad .

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I think that They should have there time extended, pending that they don't compete within that 11 days because it may change their schedual and may not have the full time.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

This is like the real world. Sometimes, a vendor for a critical part for your product can't get the part to you in time for whatever reason. Your customer, who is buying your product, won't wait for the product. If they have to wait, they pay less, or maybe even cancel the deal.

It doesn't look like any of them are on CD. If someone has direct contact to them, could they be informed of CD's existence? It may be helpful if they made contact with veterans, whether "nearby" (Turkey and Israel are the closest countries with teams, and may have some experience with things like this) or farther away via email/CD. We've all been rookies; we may not have had their unique challenges, but we can still help.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

Attached is a history of how the team was started, this was written by Ingrid's mother for our local newspaper. It is a great FIRST story, Ingrid has taken on a lot, we are very proud of her and we are helping mentor the team via video conferences. I put the poll up because I was curious as to how people would feel about an extension. I don't think it will happen, I agree with Dave. I disagree that it is not worth talking about.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I know it's a moot point, and all this discussion is academic, but as a previous poster said, it's a rookie team, which suggests, among other things, they don't have any stockpile of old parts to play with. Granted, most of the first week or so is design, but there's still the control system to learn and various systems to become familiar with (pneumo, drive, wiring, etc). I don't know if they should have a full extension of 11 days, but I would not be opposed to an extra 3-4 days.

As was previously mentioned, there don't seem to be any experienced teams to help them in their area.

I'd be curious to see how some of the experienced teams would do, if they were given a challenge (via video) and then a printed document (with conflicting measurements), but not provided with actual parts for almost two weeks. And I'm not talking about an FRC type challenge that those teams are familiar with, but something completely new, that they've had zero experience with. The only resource those teams would have would be the internet. Hmmm...

Just my thoughts,
G

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I think the discussion should lean towards how do we get international teams their KOP on time in the future, especially in dealing with teams from new countries that participate in FIRST.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I am happy to see people writing about this topic and thinking about it. Imagine being on the GDC and taking so many aspects of the competition into account when designing the game and implementing it. I have absolutely no doubt that the challenges that teams face are taken into account each season.

I also think that many teams take a lot for granted - like being able to pick up their KOP at their kick off location without thinking a thing about it. There are teams who have to figure out how to get to the location to get their KOP or make arrangements with other teams to pick it up for them and get it to them. We've participated in helping with that before. Travel to a remote kick off that involves time, money, and transportation isn't always easy. International teams face that as well as other challenges, some of which are being talked about here in this thread. It's good for the members of the FRC community to have an opportunity to learn more and understand more about what it takes to make the program that we are passionate about available to teams.

I wish all the best to the team in Bosnia, Pat. Let me know if there is any way I can be of help to them or to you. Thank you and the team for supporting them in their effort this season. Rookies rock. Veterans rock. Veterans helping rookies totally rock.

Jane

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

The fact that we have a team from Bosnia is such a leap forward in the past 5 years. But I think there needs to be a vast improvement in the reception of these new teams and the whole organization of how and when they receive their KOP and other essential materials

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

ok... now, we are probably right in the fact that this thread is utterly unimportant, but i guess we get to say our peace. that is what tis was made for...

if i remember correctly, the reason for a late shipment was because of customs, so that rules out any chance that it was the fault of the team. on that note, i do believe that they should be given an extension. what is so major about a team building when there is a competition going on? if a team has not created an idea by the start of the games(btw, i lost the game:yikes: ) then they will not have a completed robot by the time they have to ship it, some few days later...(games start like the beginning of march...) a 11 day extension would give them until march 6th to be done... the team should be fairly colse to being done...

do not forget that this team has NO EXPERIENCE, NO MENTOR, NOTHING! any non-rookie team had almost 3 months to get used to the new control system. now, they lose 11 days working with those components, but also working with the classmate. we have been working about 9 or so days on that thing, and we are still having problems with that infernal contraption!:mad:

they are already at a defecit, and if they can still get their robot to their competition site on time, then i see no reason not to let them have the time they lost... it may not be design time lost, but there is more than just design. we were prototyping by like day 3 of the build.

last note:
you would think with dean's homework and the president supporting FIRST as well as the "DoD sponsorship" that somebody would let customs know that we would be shipping stuff to them and that they NEED it on time... i do believe that someone told Obama that there was a 6 week time limit on this project... or did we...?:ahh:

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

Many have argued that they should not have the extension on the basis that 'the first week is for brainstorming anyway.' As a mentor of a recently-rookie team, I'd add that many rookie teams don't have the human capital to know how to effectively use that brainstorming time. Having my kids do things like the bench test and assembling an AM chassis were invaluable last year -- I would want any rookie team to have the same opportunity we did.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

To be clear, that's exactly what I mean: FIRST could offer the opportunity to register and pay a month earlier, so FIRST can ship it a month earlier, so that it arrives at the port of entry a month earlier, so that customs has an extra month to do whatever they do to it, and eventually release it to you once they're satisfied. (If FIRST doesn't have an entire KOP on hand at that point, they can send the balance of your materials at a later date, even though those may arrive late.)

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I would say that they should receive an extension of any wheres from 1-2 days at the most. Why? Because they are a rookie team. Yes they can read online about how to put together the gearboxes and frames and read all of the schematics for the control system, they still will not be able to build it/put it together in a couple of hours like some veteran teams. However, I don't think that they should receive a full 11 days. As like what was said before, the first two weeks are usually design only. How many of you teams were stuck in your first few weeks in your rookie season?

But being an international team does have its drawbacks, I'm sure that FIRST ships out the KoP's with enough time to make it to the teams and enough time for customs. They cannot control customs and therefore while competing internationally, expect delays like this. Consider it a side-affect of international FIRST, it is a risk that you are taking. :o

So 1-2 days to have it in the crate would be my inclination as they haven't lost too much time with the critical parts in the kit. If this were 2008 or 2009, then it would be difficult as the orbit balls and trackballs were critical when designing the robots.

Good luck! :)

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

We are in Australia and we recived our kit ~5 days late. We however have had the grate fortune of having a Crio donated and our BAE sponsers pulling strings to get FIRST to ship of our KOP ~2 days early.

While they may not get 11 days of build time to build the robot I belive they should at least have extensions in all other aspects i.e. They should have an extensions to request replacment/extra parts.

What also needs to be considered is if the robot will get through US customs on time for the competition even if they don't get the extension.

Thanks,
timytamy

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

The GDC has absolutely nothing to do with the packing, scheduling, or shipping of the Kits. Don't blame them for this one.

-dave



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Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

It would be nice if teams could pay extra for it to ship early. The game could still be kept secret if the extra money paid went into a lock mechanism (something that requires a code or combination to open) which isn't given until kickoff. To be sure no teams broke into their kit early, those that paid the extra fee would be required to bring the boxes back when they got to their regional (maybe even got some or all of the extra money they put in back and traded their 'locking' box for a regular kop box).

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I reluctantly voted "no". The ship date is a common feature for all FRC teams, and... love it or hate it (usually I do both), is also constrained by the first week of competitions. Mostly, though, I voted "no" because one of the great things about FIRST is that it is very reliable, and very firm in enforcing rules.... and one of the great things about the FRC community is how it comes together to help teams work within those rules. As much as the inflexibility drives me nuts at times, it is reassuring to know that there are no "unimportant" rules.

I have to agree with Tristan, however, when he points out that the kits simply need to be shipped sooner to overseas competitors.

Crossing the Canada/US border is a breeze compared to what overseas teams face, but it is enough of a pain in the butt to give me great empathy for the challenges they face.

If we can trust hundreds of Michigan teams to "bag and tag", their robots, I'm sure we can trust dozens of overseas teams to "bag and tag" their KoP until kickoff if it arrives early.

Enforce the rule.... but fix the problem.

Jason

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

In all the years that the Israel Regional had existed, no robot has been held in customs on it's way to Championships, so I really think that won't be a problem.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

I try to refrain from commenting on how to tell FIRST to do things but, I really sympathize with the international teams on this one.

This year, should they receive an extension? No, I don't feel that they should because there are a bunch of international teams that have received kits late..

But, onto next year and every year after, I feel like every step should be taken to get them their KOP on time. Perhaps, in each country where a large cluster of teams is present (Brazil and Israel come to mind) there is a person who is in charge of the KOP's for the team in that country and is not allowed to ship them out or let teams pick them up until the day of Kick-off. This should, in theory, keep the delays to a minimum since the Kits would already be in the country.

In countries where there are single teams or a few teams, perhaps each team could have their kit shipped to them 2 weeks early with some sort of system like the "Bag and Tag system" or what have you...

I know it's not a perfect solution, but just a suggestion.

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

Hopefully as more teams join internationally FIRST will have the ability to address these issues. I'm not sure how many teams are in Brazil or Israel, but maybe at some point FIRST could find a procedure for getting the KOP's to the country ahead of time and storing them somewhere until they can be released to teams. I like the idea of a locking mechanism, but either way I hope FIRST addresses the problem because it is a disadvantage that could be avoidable. Obviously there would be logistical and financial issues to consider, but I think that if enough teams were based in a region, it could be done.


Just a thought, I'm not completely up on the financial costs of international shipping or International Import Laws so I could very well be wrong.

Edit: Like what Dustin said ^^

Re: KOP recieved 11 days late
 

Well, but isn't this the point? How many of us know what it takes to get the KOPs shipped in a timely manner and guarantee that the teams receive them on time? I don't. I also don't work at FIRST and am not responsible for getting them to the teams, so I'm not going to say what FIRST should and should not do if I don't have my facts in order and know exactly what the procedure is and how that affects/impacts the delay for receiving the KOP.

We can vote in a poll as to what our opinion is, but how much of that vote is educated, knowledgeable, and based on facts - and how much of that is based on emotions?

I think the discussion is healthy but the poll won't work without sound information on which to base our votes. This has been a problem for a while now, and there have been rookie teams in other countries that have had to contend with receiving their KOP and sometimes, game pieces, late into the build season. One rookie team should not receive preferential treatment when others have had to contend with this same issue and have dealt with it and may have to continue to deal with it.

.02
Jane