Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=13940

This Q&A seems to outlaw a ROBOT whose upper extremities collapse into its lower ones for the purposes of going through the TUNNEL. I can't see any good reason for the GDC to say this, nor a particular rule that such a ROBOT would break?

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

I was curious about that response, too. I have a sneaking suspicion that the GDC misunderstood the question that was being asked, because it wasn't worded very clearly. Perhaps someone with their team's Q&A access could ask that question again more clearly?

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

You're about the third one to notice...

My interpretation is that 1) Jeff is right about the wording being unclear and 2) they're asking about expanding the frame perimeter, which is illegal, not pulling a lift system down within the frame perimeter, which is legal.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

My belief is that the GDC interpreted the question as extension and/or retraction in the length and width dimensions which is not allowed based on the definition of the NORMAL CONFIGURATION.

I see no rule that would prevent extension/retraction in the height dimension.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

I think the answer was given as "no" because during the teleoperated period the robot is not allowed to go into any other section of the field besides were it starts.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

Can you find a rule to support this hypothesis?

When answering rules questions here on Chief Delphi it is always best to cite and/or quote the rule or definition that led you to your conclusion.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

...Really? Then why all the fuss about invertible robots and designing a "Shremech" as they used to be called on TV's Robot Wars (Self-Righting Mechanism) to right a tipped robot that failed going over the BUMP?

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

I think you mean during autonomous period, where the robot can't cross the middle line. In teleoperated, I'm pretty sure you can go wherever you want.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

With one limitation - you can only have one of your alliances robot in the defensive zone at any given time.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

Aha, that'd be what I was forgetting. Thanks. :p

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

<R10> During the MATCH, the ROBOT will assume one of two operating configurations. When in each configuration, the ROBOT shall fit within the limits of NORMAL CONFIGURATION or FINALE CONFIGURATION

I believe the definition of normal configuration is the reason for "NO"

NORMAL CONFIGURATION – The physical configuration and orientation of the ROBOT when the MATCH is started. This is the state of the ROBOT immediately before being enabled by the Field Management System, before the ROBOT takes any actions, deploys any mechanisms, or moves away from the starting location. This configuration is static, and does not change during a single MATCH (although it may change from MATCH to MATCH).

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

Thoughts? You start as a tall bot in auto. At end of auto you drive over, touch pole and shrink down to go through tunnel. At other end of tunnel you expand. Legal or not? I'm going to say yes as long as you never lose contact with tower parts. The amount of time you spend lowering and raising might not be worth it.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

Seems somewhat plausible per <G30>

Starting small in zone 1 or 3 you can extend in zone 2 and cannot contract to go back under a tunnel.

<G30> ROBOT Volume – During a MATCH, no part of the ROBOT shall extend outside the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER, except as follows:
c. TOWER Contact ROBOT Volume - During a MATCH, ROBOTS in contact with their ALLIANCE TOWER may extend beyond their NORMAL CONFIGURATION volume but may not exceed the FINALE CONFIGURATION maximum volume.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

true

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

That rule prohibits extending outside the VERTICAL PROJECTION of the frame perimeter. In other words, if you extend the frame perimeter up towards the ceiling to make an open box, no part of the robot can extend beyond it. The only thing it says about height is that the robot cannot extend beyond 90 inches while in contact with the tower.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

I think the GDC answer is based on the definition below:

NORMAL CONFIGURATION – The physical configuration and orientation of the ROBOT when the MATCH is started. This is the state of the ROBOT immediately before being enabled by the Field Management System, before the ROBOT takes any actions, deploys any mechanisms, or moves away
from the starting location. This configuration is static, and does not change during a single MATCH (although it may change from MATCH to MATCH).

The robot may not change shape or orientation to go under the tunnel. It may deploy or retract mechanisms.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

But look at the game animation, one of the robots folds down to go through the tunnel. At about 2:04 you'll see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iheq7yar5c4

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

See 2:04 in the game animation.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

The implications of this are very interesting. When a robot starts the match (definition of NORMAL CONFIGURATION) at in a specific configuration (LxWxH), it may not change that configuration until it enters FINALE CONFIGURATION.

This means that robots may not change size, even if it remains within the 28"x38"x60" dimensions.

Hmmmm.......

Game animation does not equal rules. ;)

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

That's my take also, upon re-reading the rules, with the exception of deploying 'mechanisms' which must follow the sizing & time rules.

Game animations often take 'liberties' Also, in this animation, the eyes that 'retract' are mechanisms.

Rules & Updates trump the animations.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

...This seems like the same sort of MECHANISM versus ROBOT argument that occured in 2008 with 1519 and the Speed Racer/Fezzik incident. What defines a MECHANISM and makes the distinction from say, and frame that changes dimensions?

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

I'm thinking that someone needs to ask Q&A for clarification. It's been several days, and I haven't seen anything that would clarify either way.

Daniel, I recall Dave saying that the animation follows all current rules when it is done, but the rules may change slightly between completion and Kickoff.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

There is no rule about not going through the tunnel in autonomous. There is a penalty for COMPLETELY crossing the center line, so it's extremely risky, but legal to to attempt a tunnel trip in autonomous.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

I'll ask as soon as my login issues are solved. (I can't log in because it says I have invalid information, but I used the exact same information in school and it worked.)

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

Hopefully the GDC will clarify this soon. A strict interpretation of static configuration (L x W x H) that cannot change...technically bans robots than use a center set of wheels lower than the front and back wheels. The tipping action changes your configuration.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

I'm really hoping that the INTENT of the NORMAL configuration rule was to lock down the LxW ... but I'd like to believe that they would leave the H as a dynamic number. (i.e. as long as it's less than the max, it's legal)


Like in the animation, at 2:04, when the toon-bot drops its eyes to fit under the tunnel. There's a good chance that my team will do the same thing with our camera.


The Q&A will clarify their ruling, hopefully in favor of a dynamic height.
[crosses fingers]

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

I believe we have found this year's battery fiasco (refering to last year's GDC scare) Hopefully the ruling will be retracted otherwise 6 wheel rockers are out.:eek:

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

GDC answered



Re: NORMAL CONFIGURATION question

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In addition to the NORMAL CONFIGURATION, the FRAME PERIMETER must also be considered. The FRAME PERIMETER must be a fixed, unchanging polygon (Rule <R11>). Parts of the ROBOT are not allowed to extend beyond the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER (Rule <R16>). MECHANISMS that stay entirely within this volume are permitted. But a MECHANISM that deploys outside the FRAME PERIMETER but inside the NORMAL CONFIGURATION (except as permitted by Rule <G30>) would be a violation. It is noted that this distinction really only makes a significant difference in the cases where the FRAME PERIMETER is substantially smaller than the NORMAL CONFIGURATION volume limits.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

That doesn't answer the question, what that one means is that I'm not allowed to make a tiny robot that uses a kicker outside of the frame perimeter that'd still be inside the NORMAL CONFIGURATION.

That'd mean that you are allowed to retract vertically as this applies only to pre-match configuration. The it may change from match to match section is probably for cases where the team choses to have a hardware switch for which alliance they are on for autonomous mode or something similar.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

There's 3 new GDC answers on this topic:

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14223

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14232

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14096

The last one specifically asks about the answer that started this thread. It seems the GDC interpreted the question differently than most of us here.

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

Thanks God!!!:p

Re: Can't retract to go under TUNNEL?
 

Seems the GDC made the sensible clarification there. The way I read the rules, the intent was for us to be able to change in the Z axis direction to fit through the TUNNEL, but not expand outside our FRAME PERIMETER, except for a MECHANISM below the BUMPER ZONE which is allowed to expand up to the BUMPER PERIMETER for up to 2 seconds, and then must remain retracted for at least 2 seconds (I can't wait to see the ref's try to call this one.)