Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

OK,
Now I see what you are worried about. I interpret the update to include the intrusion of all fasteners. If they are excluded from determining the frame perimeter at the bumper zone, and the frame perimeter is a series of vertical planes, then any fastener that would be legally excluded at the bumper zone must also be excluded if they exist outside the bumper zone.

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

There is a simple answer to all of this.

Please refer to the diagram below (taken from R07 in manual):



The 1" allowance for hard parts that has been highlighted.

Questions you should ask yourself:
1. Are the bolt heads in question within the 28"x38" box? Yes = Good, No = Fix that first.

2. Are the bolt heads on the frame perimeter? Yes = You're fine. No = Go to question 3.

3. If not on frame perimeter, are the bolt heads within the 1" zone allowed by the bumpers? Yes= You're fine. No = Fix that.


Its not that hard. Don't lawyer the rules and you'll find the intent of the rule that was there before.

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

Uh, Chuck,
The hard parts reference construction of the bumpers not the robot. Sorry...

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

Al,

I understand that, however it appears that the GDC's intent for this rule is that the bumpers are the first thing all bots contact. Therefore, if your "protrusions" (that are within the 28"x38" box) are within this 1" hard parts zone, you should be fine.

I understand that this is not what the rule is referring to at all, but I am trying to apply the rules in a method that doesn't lawyer the rules. I will draw up a diagram to show what I am trying to convey in an easier way.

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

Chuck, we're working with the robot frame, not the bumpers. You might get further with the pocketing part of <R07>.

Taken as a whole, the rules imply that you can have minor protrusions. Take the update by itself, and the rules say that nothing can be beyond the frame perimeter except the bumpers (and, probably, their mounting system) without penalty.

What they should have said: Small protrusions (axles, bolt heads, and the like) are excluded from both the determination of the FRAME PERIMETER and violations of [applicable rules regarding going beyond the frame perimeter].

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

Eric,

I get that as well. The rules intent as it seems is that the frame perimeter, that the bumpers attach to, is the max dimension of the robot.

Say team A has built a standard "box" frame where their drive rails are the same size as the "frame perimeter, But they use hex bolts to have as their drive axles. All of this assembly fits within the 28"x38" box that we all have come to know and love, but as per this new frame perimeter ruling, these bolts are 1/4" farther out than the frame perimeter above them. Now for this example, lets say that the box itself is a 20"x30" frame, and where the bolts protrude make the lower area a total of 20.5"x30.5". This is now where the bumper rule comes in. If you were to attach the bumpers on the "frame perimeter" which is 20"x30". Now, the 1" allowance all the way around makes it possible that the protrusions you have below to be within a 22"x32" box, that is defined by the bumpers. All hard parts of your robot are within both the 28"x38" box AND within the 1" added perimeter of the bumpers.



Does this make sense?

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

While I understand the desire to not try and lawyer the rules, in this case we are not lawyering the rules to gain an advantage, we are lawyering the rules in a way that makes our current frames illegal.

The intent of this lawyering is not that we want our frames to be illegal, but rather that we want either the rules clarified or we want to be sure we have to modify our frames to comply. Having the inspector do the lawyering when we're at the competition and rule our robot is illegal is not a scenario I'm comfortable gambling with.

EDIT: While the post you made directly above this one makes perfect sense to BE the rule, unfortunately I do not believe that is currently the case. The 1" hard parts rule comes from <R07-N> which specifically makes reference to the BUMPERS.

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

Chuck,

Hard parts refers only to the bumper itself (<R07N> "“Hard” parts of the BUMPER ...") or bumper covers (<R12B> "i.e. no further than any other hard parts of the BUMPER"). These rules have nothing to do with the frame or other parts of the robot.

Your diagram shows the problem in the rules, both original and as amended in Team Update 6. You have bumpers flat against a flat FRAME PERIMETER. The protrusion you show is outside the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER, and thus fails <R16>. Team Update 6 excluded minor protrusions of the FRAME PERIMETER itself, but not protrusions such as you show. (The FRAME PERIMETER is defined as the maximum robot size in the BUMPER ZONE.)

It is Al's and my belief that the GDC may have meant Team Update 6 to exclude protrusions such as you illustrate, but that is not the way it was written. In fact, it makes it worse, because before this exclusion, you could have a matching small protrusion in the BUMPER ZONE which would expand your FRAME PERIMETER, making the lower protrusion equal to the projection of the FRAME PERIMETER, not a violation.

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

Lets just hope the GDC clears this up quick. I hope that the interpretation that you, Al, and I all have is what the intent is. It's a shame that when things are written in such a manner it can cause threads like this to emerge.

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

It's been cleared up.

Team update #6

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

There's no argument about the determination of the FRAME PERIMETER. The lingering question of this thread (Post TU#6) is whether the bolt head protrusion rule only applies to bolt heads in the bumper zone, of it it applies to all bolt heads that may protrude from the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER.

For people who need to nail down robot dimensions (all of us) it seems safer to assume that bolt heads outside the BUMPER ZONE may not leave the boundary defined by the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER. Any robot designed within this interpretation is always legal, while the other option has a chance of not being legal.

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

This is an excellent discussion and I thank everyone for trying to noodle this out.

From my point of view it is more important to get a QUICK answer than it is to get any particular answer. Right now, life could be a bit tricky if they made this or that ruling, but we would deal with it. If they wait another week to answer, I'll have to reorder metal because we've already started cutting and the fix is not easy once that happens.

So... GDC, please oh please think about this and answer SOONER rather than later (and give lots of examples of what you intend so that we don't have further issues or misunderstandings).

Joe J.

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

I can tell you with absolute certainty that the intent of the rule is to allow the heads of fasteners to stick out past the frame perimeter to allow the bolting of axles, etc. I have read the update several times and the update specifically excludes fastener heads from the definition of frame perimeter.

In this case, maybe a picture can say 1,000 words. Just show the picture and be done with it.

I do think that some of you are reading way too into this update. They are trying to help us here so we don't all rest our bumpers on screw heads. I am proceeding with our protruding bolt heads below the bumper.

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

I think we all agree on the intent of the rule.

The problem is that instead of permitting reasonable protrusions, the actual wording makes minor protrusions illegal, period. They stick beyond the FRAME PERIMETER by definition, and the rules still prohibit any part of the robot from doing that (except for two seconds at a time) in NORMAL CONFIGURATION.

Re: Fasteners extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER
 

No disagreement on the intent. The disagreement is over the wording used. The wording of the rules disallows anything beyond the frame perimeter. Ditto for the wording of the update, which shrinks the frame perimeter slightly.

The wording of other rules indicates that small protrusions are allowed. This is implied, not stated, so what is stated is the rule until shown otherwise. Therefore, if a bolt head is sticking beyond the frame perimeter, the robot is illegal. (I can already hear inspectors all over the country cringing, pulling their hair out, and screaming--there's always that one team that builds right up to the size without allowing for bolts in the first place. Now multiply that by about 1700.)

Better wording would have said that minor protrusions would not be used in either the determination of the frame perimeter of determination of violations of the frame perimeter.