Who is hanging and how?
 

Hi I was just wondering what teams plan on hanging, allowing teams to hang from them, hanging from other robots, or sitting on the platform.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

You forgot an option, but I'm not allowed to say which :p

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

+1
None of the above, but robot will be elevated.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

If all things go to plan, 2791 will be hangin'-a-round. A lot of convincing will be needed before grabbing onto someone else's robot rather than the tower, in my personal opinion. The robot will have no means to suspend others.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Yeah, I agree. An option has been forgotten ;)

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Well, there's ramping other robots either onto the platform or onto yourself as you become ELEVATED, but I think that's included in the "hanging others" option personally.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

We'll be elevating ourselves, hopefully.

And depending on how everything shapes up with our mechanism, we may add the provision for another team to hang off of us. If we do, I doubt it'll ever be used in a Qualification match, and would probably only be used in Elims when a win is absolutely necessary.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

If you are referring to climbing the vertical pole, that may be included in hanging from the tower.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

I still find myself wondering what the advantage of hanging by yourself is? It's only 2 points and I think it is likely that if you keep playing offense you will score at least 2 points and if you were playing defense you would probably be giving up at least 2 points given an undefended goal. If you can reliably hang and suspend another robot then I can see where 5 points is worth getting. The difficulty in doing so with a teammate that has never seen your robot or practiced with you or has properly anticipated how to hang from you seems quite high and is likely to limit the success of this operation. Thoughts??
Bruce

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

What if your mechanism only takes, say, 5-10 seconds to hang? Can you score 2 goals in 5-10 seconds consistently? I'd be impressed.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Bruceb,
I agree on the hanging by yourself part.
Its only 2 points.
I suspect that the superior robot is one that can hang and "lift" or "carry" another robot for the 5 pointers.
The lack of rampbots discussed in CD is surprising to me for possible 4 pointers. If robots are being built to climb 45 degree angles, isnt it very possible to climb a 30 degree one?;)

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

very very true ;)

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

but how do you fit a 30 degree ramp in a 84 in circle?

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

we are doing it this way:

1- raise hook via screw driven scissor lift
2- disconnect hook from lift
3- use the uber-winch to pull us up (and anybody hanging from us)

we are using both of the 2 "taboo devices"- scissor lifts and vaccums. but as long as it works and is clearly legal, we'll do it.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

What pushed you toward a scissor lift for your hook delivery system versus other kinds of lifts?

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Something along the lines of this

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Carbon fiber grappling hook + carbon fiber telescoping arm.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Lifting is best solved by a TENSION solution. Ramps are compression based.
Compression is high mass and produces TORQUE.
Tension is self aligning and LOW MASS.
Think cables and synthetic fiber lines.
-Dick Ledford 3135 Robbotic Colonels

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

A combination of pneumatics and a ramp deploying mechanism.
Technically 27.xx degrees.:D

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Does your bot traverse the tunnel? Why the telescoping scheme, when getting from the 60" max. vert. bot size limit to the 84" bar requires only a 24"+hook size swing arm. Seems harder to do telescoping?
-Dick Ledford

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

No we only cross the bump. We want to keep the arm low and close to the robot to help keep a low CG.

Telescoping should be easy how we do it. Connecting the bottom of the upper(inner) tube to the top of the bottom(outer) tube with surgical tubing. We'll use a worm transmission to hold the upper tube down inside the bottom tube against the tension, unwind the worm to release tension, allowing the arm to spring up, then after hooking, re-wind the worm to lift our robot up.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

To lift a robot onto your robot that is on the platform?

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

How are rampbots 4 pointers?

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

If the other two bots climb your rampbot to become ELEVATED, they get 2 points each.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Good luck achieving any rampbot. From the near part of the tower (from the driver's station) to the far part, the distance is less than the length of the robot. While the wheels won't be on the edge of the bot, it is still a very small room for the robot to fit on, and any error could be catostrophic. Plus, if one robot getting 2 points is questionable, then 2 robots getting 2 points should be out of the question. It is almost impossilbe for 2 robots to fit on the platform side by side, and in any eleimination round at least 1 of your alliance partners should be able to hang by themselves.

The only way I could see a ramp bot being worthwhile would be if the ramp bot could hang from the elevated bot, but this would most likely just result from the elevated bot being pulled down and landing on the rampbot.

My team is going with a telescoping rod with a grappling hook on the end. The hook detaches and the bot is winched up. Incase that somehow fails, we have a side hanger being made too as a back-up.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Never say never. As long as the whole robot is above the plane of the platform it is ELEVATED. The ramp's "top" could be longer than the platform in theory.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

And the robot is touching the tower. It may be tricky(but not impossible) to get the second robot you are trying to elevate in contact with the tower if the first robot doesn't quite fit and has to hang off.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Team 58 - The Riot Crew will be hanging. In fact we tested our robot tonight. Video can be seen on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TToKIpXpVI

We hope to make it a little faster but it works.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Tested the hooks the hooks tonight, nice and light weight...

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

If our team ever gets off our little #25 chain tangent, we'll finally get back to making our lifting arm work with 3840-pound breaking strength Dyneema. We snapped our 1050-pound Spectra A spearfishing line, so our mentor has typecast the material as being weak, and he's trying to get it to work with #25 chain. But once we get back onto the Dyneema (since the chain failed tonight, even faster than the Spectra), we'll be set up to support two robots and ourselves.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Spring-loaded telescoping arm with pneumatics to lift the bot. I hope we finish it up soon so I can post pictures...

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

You could be in the middle of the field, it doesn't really matter if you touch the tower or not.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Not true. The definition of elevated:

Emphasis mine

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

We are not hanging but if we are in the middle we are going to keep you from hanging.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Yeah we're not hanging anymore after breaking our carbon fiber arm, oh well though, we still can push you and keep you from getting 2.
:p

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Better have some careful drivers, if your pushing a robot and while you're pushing they make contact with the tower, its a red card on you per <G34>.

I'm sad your arm didn't work out, it was so cool! The way those keyed hubs were set in the carbon fiber was sweet!

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Of course, we just plan on not letting them get even close to the tower in the first place, or if they leave really earlier then we'll take advantage of the handicap and score on them.

We'll be very careful about that, no one wants any penalties.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

While driving, our arm, if extended bends like crazy. Luckilly, it is made of cheap material (aluminium U shapd thingys), so we will be making a few extra, and bringing them. Just in case.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

We use this.

To do this.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

If the robot is on top of you, and the top of you is the height of the platform or more, the robot on top of you has to touch the platform to get 2 points. Get two bots up, one on the platform, one on you, and you have 4 points.

MARS created a rampbot. The ramp is about 37 degrees, but we have skateboard grip tape to help robots up. Even Swamp's (179) heavy robot was able to get up. Deploying it is easy. Ours is spring loaded, you just pull the pin holding it in with pneumatics and it unfolds by itself.

Building rampbots was heavily implied in the rules and video, I'm surprised there aren't more.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Sorry, I forgot to check the manual:ahh:

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

yes, but allowing them to score two and then you hanging, scoring 2, gives you more seating points increasing your rank at competitions

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

I guess I am showing my ignorance here, but what is "hanging"?

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

This was the endgame for the 2010 game, Breakaway. More info can be found at the FIRST website. For the endgame, robots hung themselves onto towers situated near the center of the field.

This has no relation to the 2012 game Rebound Rumble, so you won't get confused.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Holy thread revival, Batman!

In other words,

Welcome to ChiefDelphi :D

As Andrew said, this thread is 2 years old now and doesn't relate anything to this year's game.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

:D http://mrlim.net/pluginfile.php?file...2FPIC-0039.jpg

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Would that be considered grabbing the field element? If not, looks good to me :D

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

We briefly considered a similar mechanism but decided against it in large part because it would only work if there was another robot, like the one you pictured.

This potential rule violation is another reason why we didn't pursue the idea. I think it would be considered 'attaching to' the field element, but I may be wrong. Depending on how the ramp/robot interacted I could also see great potential for playing field damage too.

[G10]
Robots may not grab, grasp, grapple, or attach to any Arena structure. Robots may not push or react against the top of the Fender. (Robots may push or react against any element of the Arena that is not protected by another rule.)
Violation: Foul

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

There were 29 people who said they would be suspending. Over the entire season there was what, one suspension?

There were 33 people who said they could be suspended from. See above.

There were 14 people who said they would be climbing onto the base of the tower. I don't recall anyone successfully doing that, either.

How did so many teams horribly misread the game that year? Is suspending just like three robots balancing?

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

One did, using a ramp supplied by another team's robot (1629 was the ramp; don't remember who climbed up).

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Teams are overconfident every year. Honest evaluation of your capabilities with regard to your design strategy is a skill few teams have.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Quoted for truth.


This is a wonderful example of teams not really understanding how difficult some of the tasks are, and their own capabilities.

Build within your capabilities, and understand your capabilities (and what you cannot do) and you will do well.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Which is why I loathe pit scouting.
Too many teams lie. They will tell you their robot can do anything and everything and it can barely move 1o feet.
All pit scouting really does is weed out teams that I never ever want on my alliance. If I can't trust you to tell me honestly what your own robot can or cannot do how can I trust you to execute the strategy in the eliminations?

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

How many of those teams do you think are actually lying instead of citing their designed "upside?" Their robots were designed to do those tasks, and many still believe they'll be able to by weekends' end.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

100% agree.

I believe that pit scouting is only good for getting close up pictures of each robot, so when you are talking about who to pick you have a picture to reference to in addition to your match scouting data.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Oftentimes it is so overstated it is lying even if it is well intentioned. In 2008 at BAE we asked teams in the pit what they though a realistic estimate of their hurdles/match would be over the course of qualifiers. The average team told us 4, yet come noon Saturday only four teams had averaged two hurdles per match, one was very close to three. Interestingly, all five of those teams had come close to correctly guessing how many hurdles/match they would be worth.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Practically none.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Being asked something like "how well can you score" can put a lot of pressure on an unprepared student. Students are awkward, excited, and optimistic sometimes - I wouldn't blame them for overstating their machine. While I'm not proud, I've gotten a bit excited myself. Especially right after a good match.

My response to this is to just not pit scout. Other than photos. It makes it easier for everyone that way.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

That's why teams should be careful about who is standing in their pits. Make sure they are prepared to answer the questions asked of them or point people in the right direction to properly answer questions about the robot instead of spreading false information about the robot and doing more damage to your teams reputation than having a bad robot will.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

You ask a team to make a guess about a game they have never played with a robot they have barely driven? No surprise they got it wrong. A bad guess is not a lie. You should give these young and inexperienced teams/members a break. If a team tells me on Thursday morning that they can shoot the moon, I know they are telling me their hopes for their design. If they stick to that story on Saturday morning, and still haven't achieved it, then they are probably lying and trusting them is problematic.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Then they should say I'm guessing and not represent it as fact. Part of scouting is understanding if the team actually bought a clue.

I don't blame rookies for messing up, but you still have to evaluate their capabilities. Some rookies may be good enough to play in the bigs but their word on it won't buy you a cup of water at MD.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

Of course our robot can fly!

Who's scouting whom? If the scout is gullible, let's have some fun. If the scout is cute, let's keep talking so s/he'll stay around longer. Scout is gross, let's say something unbelievable so s/he'll get outta here.

cum grano salis for all reports, especially this one. ;) :D

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

This doesn't have much to do with rookies, teams and team members of all levels of experience are guilty of nisrepresenting what the robot can do.

I find pit scouting to be valuable but I don't find getting information from the other teams members to be of much use. My pit scouting has always consisted of taking pictures of the robot and making observations, type of drive train, and type of manipulator. This is more for vetting our scouts data later in the weekend than anything else.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

I'm sure our team is guilty of a lie or two, but...I should explain. Our first two years we showed up with robots that were completely untested, and based on ideas that came from people who had very little experience actually building anything of this size.

We also had a problem with team membership shifting...Our first year we had six people, two of which had never seen the robot before taking it out of the crate at the competition. Our second year wasn't much better.

I think good scouting comes down to asking the right questions.

How many practice matches have you had?

What happened, or how did your robot do?

What problems have you run into and how did you solve them?

Take pictures of the robot (as other people have said)
And collect data during actual matches.

Awe said things like, we are going to try to hang, but in half the matches our robot ended up on its side, with a ball stuck in the kicker, and a missing wheel... The one time we did hook the bar we learned that 2CIM motors on a simple box were not enough to lift 135 or so pounds and ripped one of our bumpers off.

The thing is we learned...we are better now...but all of the things we said we thought were true at the time.

Re: Who is hanging and how?
 

I agree with the above post. Pit scouting is only useful if you ask the right questions. The questions proposed above have very valuable information in them.

Have you played in any practice matches? Did you participate in a preship scrimmage? How did you perform? What problems did you encounter and how did you solve them?

These all include information that is very valuable to you in gauging the general preparedness of a team which can play a huge factor in performance. If they encounter a problem that they haven't fixed, don't intend to fix, or don't know how to fix it tells you a lot about the preparedness of the robot. If they have played several practice matches, built a duplicate robot, or attended a preship scrimmage it tells you something about the preparedness of their drive-team.

You will get actual data on how they perform on the field by field scouting anyway which is undoubtedly more accurate than a guess from a team that has yet to play the game. I intend to implement these types of questions in our pit scouting this year, and this is the type of information that we attempt to be upfront about when others come to scout us.