The Spirit of FIRST
 

I know that we only have 6 weeks to build the best robot we possibly can. However what stops a team from building two bots, ship one, and then get an extra few weeks to practice driving with the other. I know that a few teams do this, and those teams are also very good.

This is totally against the spirit of FIRST, and gives an unfair advantage to those teams, and should not be allowed. It all comes down to if you think Dean would be upset, or not, with what those teams are doing.

I would like to know other views on this subject.

Thanks

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

How is that against the spirit of FIRST?
FIRST wants each team to bring students to the peak of their abilities and if that means that they are able to build 2 robots and for some to build 2 championship caliber robots, then why not gor for it?

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

How is it at all against the spirit of FIRST? It's not as if the teams that are doing this are preventing other teams from doing the same thing.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

I don't see anything wrong with it if they decide to build a robot quickly and without much precision, then it's their issue. If they do it well, it's their gain the same is true for teams that build one robot or meet one day less per week, or whatever.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

Nothing does. It's been known about for years, and is not disallowed. You should try it sometime.

I'm assuming by this you mean "against the 6 week build cycle". It's not, since you can't incorporate practice bot changes on your real robot outside of fix-it windows if I understand the rules correctly (I don't really need to as I'm not building one).

How is it unfair? They worked harder to get more money to do so, and they chose to do so, which is a smart decision.

If you're able, yet unwilling, to do something completely within the rules, it's not "unfair" that others are doing what you don't. If you're unable... fundraise more!

The GDC has had multiple opportunities to make it against the rules. Practice bots have been common since the introduction of autonomy.

No it doesn't. Even if it did, I'm sure many, MANY people in FIRST are fully aware of practice robots, and if it upset too many of them, it wouldn't be like it is now.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

Cite a quote or a rule and I'll stop. Otherwise do not hinder the progress of those around you. Worry about yourself and improving yourself.

You can do two things from here:

1) Bicker and complain about "unfair" advantages. Whatever that even means (it means nothing to me).

2) Get your butt out there and allow the same success for your team.

"There are two ways to compete in this world, you can drag your competitors down, or you can rise above them. Which is better for the world in the long run?" ~John Abele- Chairman of FIRST, Founder Chairman of Boston Scientific

I encourage you to read this post by Adam Heard.

You're basically saying for teams to stop being smart and actually make a practice robot if they have the ability to do so. That logic is very flawed. I don't know how many times I've said this by now "Every year someone makes this competition about whining rather than winning."

PS- Dean would be proud to see all the successful teams who can pull of multiple robots. He's an engineer. He knows how things work in this world.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

Dean, Woodie, Dave, FIRST HQ are all aware and, to my knowledge, no one is upset in the least. Even if you had a rule in place, it's virtually unenforceable anyway. For those that have the resources to do so, fabulous. It raises the bar for all of us. My team does not build two, nor do we have the resources or schedule to do so, but I certainly admire those who do and look forward to competing against them.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

I don't see it against the spirit of FIRST. We built two last year and plan doing it again this year. If anything, it takes more time and effort to get two running compared to one all while pushing our skills to the limit. Is that against the spirit of FIRST? No.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

1) Search Before You Post, no really, discussed many times read those threads, might learn a thing or two.

2) So glad someone finally appointed themselves SPIRIT OF FIRST GESTAPO... again... You do what you think will inspire students I'll do what I think will inspire students. My team, my rules, as long as the students get inspired what difference does it make? Got 30 students and only enough room for 15 of em on one robot? MAKE 2 so they all get a chance, not against the spirit at all.

3) Unfair advantage, what stops you from building two robots? Nothing, if you don't like them beating you because of what you perceive as an advantage man up and do something about it. You can compete two ways in this world, rise up to their level or drag them down to yours. Me? I always want to rise to theirs, no matter what I learn something.

(Irritated by this post? There is a little scale, feel free to use it. I am sick and tired of people coming on here and saying Team X is un GP because of this, Team Y is not in the spirit of FIRST.)

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

I meant solely on the "six week Build season"

Our team was thinking of doing 2 bots.
However several people brought this up topic up.

I respect everyone's opinion I just needed to know what other people thought.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

wow I feel like I am being hunted lol

I just needed to know outside opinions.

I apologize for getting anyone upset.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

Asking for outside opinions and passing judgement are two very different things. Statements like, "This is totally against the spirit of FIRST" are passing judgements and is in no way asking for an opinion.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

Ok instead of the usual... "bash the post", which is already well done in this and other threads, I'd like to offer some advice and wisdom that comes from 10 years of experience.

In 2001, our first season, we built the scrappiest robot and went out and competed fairly well and had to go against the Bionic Bulldogs from Kingman, AZ. It was a fun quarterfinal and had that David and Goliath feel to it. The following year at SVR, we went against them once again in the Finals and lost. For those that know about their robot in 2002, it was a marvel of engineering on par with Beatty (71). But our team felt a sense of, "that's not fair, they had they help of Ford engineers, more sponsers, etc..." . We had very little engineering help or sponsors and it really just seemed unfair. We then witnessed the rise of the poofs, wildhats, and many other NorCal powerhouses. We were quite jealous of them all, could we ever compete on a level playing field with these teams? It's just not fair.

BUT then a few years back, we stopped comparing ourselves with other teams and just focused on the best WE could do with the resources we had and if we needed more, we took the steps to improve. Now we raise over $50,000 each year, started a non-profit, build partnerships with sponsors and community and while building a great bot is always a goal, it is NOT our focus. Because of this we feel a lot more successful, garnered a few more awards, AND still no banner to show for it (yet).

So as others have already stated, focus on your team and robot - don't worry about other teams. If you want to go through life thinking about what's not fair or unGP then your missing the point of FIRST. Dean doesn't strike me as a type of person that focuses on what's not fair, and perhaps that's why he has the success that he does.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

Don't sweat it, just remember you're not the only one thinking this, you just posted your thoughts, and I respect that.

We thought we could do 2 bots in 2008, but found out it took too many resources since we do most everything in house. We instead focus on finishing a robot early. That can be the biggest advantage a team can have. It's a five week build - at least that's what we shoot for. Give your drive team several days of practice. Give your programmers several days to troubleshoot their program and auto code. Decorate/paint the bot, etc...

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

There are 3 things I want to talk about. All of them are relevant; none of them is an attack on the original poster, or intended as such. If it is perceived as an attack, I apologize in advance.

1) All teams have the same amount of time. Another poster brought up fix-it windows. We have fix-it windows this year that are from ship day to competition. Maybe not all teams have the same resources, or the same practice space. Meet the incentive to get those resources--the robot that has them and beats yours (or not). For reference, my team used old robots as practice until 2007, when we built a practice robot first, as a prototype, and then used what we learned to build the real deal. We won the Championship in 2005 without an accurate practice robot, just a retrofitted 2004 robot that wasn't really meant for driving on the floor. Since 2007, there have been several practice robots...

2) No rule prevents any of the following: collaboration, intentionally identical robots on different teams, mentor-built robots, student-built robots, or practice robots built by one team. If anyone can show a rule, I'll shut up on that topic. (Also note: this is the umpteenth year that all of the above items have been legal--collaboration was officially approved in 2004, and was the last of the list.)

3) What is the spirit of FIRST? Does anybody know? United States Foundation For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology... Does that not describe the spirit of FIRST in a nutshell? For those wondering, yes, that is the full official name of FIRST. They've since stopped using the United States part, and to a large extent the Foundation part. I don't see how building a second robot detracts from either inspiration or recognition--in fact, it may even expand it by allowing more students to get their hands dirty playing with science and technology, and improving their understanding.

In short, you have to define the spirit of FIRST before you ask if something is a violation. That definition is a very good topic, because we all need the reminder. "Asking if" something is a violation is not the best topic, as we all just found out.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

Dean has made clear his stance on this before. Simply stated "Life isn't fair."
FIRST does not want to get into the business of micromanaging thousands of teams on what they do, how they do it, why, where or when they get together to work (the teams that strive for excellence in FIRST do as much outside the six weeks more importantly building their team than they do the robot. Because when you build the people and the team building the robot comes much easier when they learn to work together which enables them to build that second robot).
As you have already learned you don't want to open that Pandora's box about complaining about what other FIRST teams do. Every FIRST team is different from their sizes to funding to motivations and histories.
We've been in FIRST from year one and have almost every robot from all those years at our disposal to observe at our leisure at our build site to learn from. That is a huge help for us (not every robot is a great one but you can learn just as much from your failures as you can from your successes).
So is that fair that a handful of legacy teams have that history and long term mentors to help them while other teams have to learn on the go?
You'd be wise to learn from these teams that it is not just about the robot. Instead of looking at the robot on the field observe the drives team and see how they interact with their partners. Watch and see what the team itself is doing while the match is going on and after their match is going on what they are doing. Most of their success comes outside of the 2 minute and 15 second window when they are preparing for the nest round. I go to alot of events and the one thing that has always stood out to me is how some teams come so grossly unprepared to the field that could simply be remedied with some organization and simply reading the manual. You don't need to build a second robot to do that.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

First is like the game of golf its a gentlemens sport.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

This is 1727's first year building a practice 'bot. The main reason behind it is that we experienced a large influx of members this year, our team stands at over 40 students. In order to keep everyone learning, building, and interacting with mentors, we decided to build a second robot. Any practice we get out of it will be an added bonus. Not to mention that it gives us a much more refined final product.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

No, FIRST is a soccer game. There is an old saying that "football is a gentleman’s game played by hooligans, and rugby is a hooligans’ game played by gentlemen". :rolleyes:

Brendan has touched on something here that no one else has picked up on yet. Not only does it take more time, there has to be more effort put into it to ensure your tolerances. A practice robot does no good if it is not a copy of your competition bot. You need to perfect your building skills so you can make two things alike. That's not an easy endeavor.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

You should never be made to feel like you are being hunted on CD. If veteran posters are part of the reason that you are feeling that way, then they should look at how they are posting and the attack mode that they are using.

It is also wise for veteran posters to remember and keep in mind, that the build season brings ideas and innovations to individual teams that are new to those teams, even though they may have already become common practices to other teams. The benefits of having the opportunity to build a second robot is an excellent example. It is always good to think about doing some searches in CD on the topic that is of interest. It can also be helpful to provide an example of a thread that is already in existence when making that suggestion.

Some discussions in CD can mirror the part of FRC that is cyclical and follows a structured pattern, creating opportunities to think. We are all on the path, but we aren't all in the same place at the same time in areas of team development. Some of us would do well to remember that and rein in our impatience and intolerance. If we don't, that zero tolerance can lead to fast/superfast burnout.

Jane

P.S. It's good to see that experience, humor, and wisdom are being shared in this thread now, replacing judgment.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

Regarding building two robots with Team 2502, it's always been a "We wish" sort of a thing. We see it also as an "unfair advantage" but only because they've worked hard for it. This year, we have the funds to build two robots. However, after building two robots, we aren't going to have any money left, so we decided against it (haha, pretty quickly, too). This is something every team should strive to get to, instead of complaining and trying to bring other teams down.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

Thank you i really appreciate all of this input.

I wish everyone the best of luck this year.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

You should look at rule R27 and especially the text in the blue box at the end of this rule:
It very specifically states that they are encouraging teams to continue software development after the ship date.

Another point to consider is teams who can only afford to attend a single regional in week 5 or 6, where other teams that they are competing against have attended several before that. Those other teams would have had the advantage of the driving practice (and robot system tuning) during those previous competitions.

The point is that every team must make choices to get the most out of the resources that are available to them (eg. $ for a prototype vs. $ for another regional)... and possibly work to get more resources. Engineering is about more than just what part to bolt where and what wire to connect where; it is about trade-offs and making the most of the time, talent, and physical resources available. The spirit of FIRST is about learning not just about winning.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

And now, for our next topic - "Why I hate puppies and kittens" - ;)

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

My thought at reading the start of this post was that we have all had these thoughts... so for those of you immediately on the attack, think back to your first years, Im SURE there was something you thought was "unfair". Now realize you have gained wisdom and seen so much that others havent, then sit back down and type something NICE.

As for my thoughts, it all comes back to what you think FIRST is about. Is it about winning? NO! Dean & Woodie & Dave have clearly stated that. It is about Inspiration. Is winning inspirational? heck yes. Is building a robot alongside an awesome group of engineers inspirational? Absolutely! Does it really matter in a game that is based more on luck of the draw (partners and such) if you win?? Not really... while it feels great to win, teams competing in FIRST come from all different backgrounds, from all different countries, from all different sponsorship levels, to make all of them compete at the exact same level would be nearly impossible. So lets all just have fun with it!!

I will echo what those here have already said. If it feels unfair, take a step back and learn from them. Two years ago 1511 wrote to Paul, Karthik & Andy B asking "how do you develop such key strategies", and every one of them responded with some amazing answers that we learned so much from. If you really desperately want to build a second robot, ask one of those "fortunate" teams for help... they may be able to lend you parts, help you make things, etc! You will be surprised how much teams that "have" will help those that "have not", all it takes is someone to ask!

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

In several conversations with my previous Team Captain this has come up many times. I respect him greatly, he has helped me grow as an engineer and as a leader in ways he will never fully understand. But many a times have we been looking at pictures of previous years robots to see how things have been done just in case we need them.

At some point he would say "I wish we could do that. I really do. It would be so amazing. And it would make us so much better." We would then sit there for a moment and I would respond "But we can't. We don't have the resources, and our mentors are holding us back." that would get us both thinking. He would typically respond "Your right. So how can we fix that?" I would think for a bit and respond "Well, we know what we have, and we know what we can do. Lets start with that."

What I am saying is that, no, it's not unfair. They are simply taking advantage of the hard work they have done. What right do we have to stop them? I personally like seeing the teams that can do this. I look at them and say "I want to be like them. We will strive to be like them. Lets get started! :D "

Good luck this season! :D

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

My team has completed seasons with and without a practice robot. Yes there is nothing in the rules about not having one. Yes, it is an ethical dilema that all teams have to face. But if you can look past the ethical roadblock for a second and weigh the advantages and disadvantages, things become a bit clearer. I remember in 2007 when my team had this exact same debate. It was hard for some to see past the ethics, I was one of those people. Due to this some asked others to weigh the advantages and disadvantages, then if it is close add the ethics in. In the end we went with the practice bot for a few years, those were our best seasons. (This past year due to resources we did not, and regreted the decision.) Not only did the inexperianced members have more time on the robot, but it gave the advanced members an opertunity to teach and see how far they have come. Not only did we inspire the new team members, but allowed the old to recignize their own engineering expertise.

Obviously I'm skewed towards the practice bot idea, but notice there was no attack. I have been attacked myself on CD and view it as a hostile place. I think some FIRSTers need to ask themselves "Am I acting like my grandmother is watching?" If the answer is no, then why are you posting in a FIRST forum? (I'm fully aware this is an unofficial forum:o ) Just some food for thought, that I expect will affect my green dots.

Re: The Spirit of FIRST
 

How is this an ethical dilemma at all?