FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

Hi ChiefDelphi,

Before I say anything, please excuse anything that sounds pretentious or arrogant. I don't think I'm an arrogant person by nature or intent, but I like to share the facts without lying. To me, lying is worse than honesty that may come off as pretentious or arrogant.

I post to discuss what I plan on doing in the future as well as asking if there are others who participate or lead a team in the engineering department (note: not marketing) but isn't actually planning on going in to Engineering. I know that there are many non-engineering mentors out there, but I'm trying to learn about the students like me! This is probably my "WAI" post. I'll see if I can figure out how to post a WAI picture, too. I share my life story below, just so you know where I'm coming from, and who I am, at least a little below the surface level.

This is my story. My name's Keehun Nam and I'm a Korean. I immigrated to the United States when I was just about 9 yrs old in 3rd Grade. I only knew "Hello" "Hi" "Bye" "Thank You" and the alphabet when I came over here. It's funny that I didn't go to heavily Korean-concentrated population centers (e.g. Chicago, LA, Seattle, etc) but rather somewhere far off. I'm from Minnesota. I'm glad that I never went to live in a heavily Korean populated areas, actually... Anyway... Ever since my friends dreamed about becoming firefighters and policemen in kindergarden, I dreamed of becoming an astronaut, only to be deterred by two major stitching that I got (to this day, I haven't heard back from NASA. I wrote them when I was little, asking if astronaut candidates couldn't have any stitches -- I was wondering if all the G-forces would rip them apart -- haha I like my childhood). Anyway... I helped start a team my freshmen year with 2 other freshmen and 1 senior-then who's a sophomore at MIT now studying EE and Math. I initially found about FIRST back when I was in 5th grade. Not knowing anything about it, I looked up how to start a team but discouraged by the text that read "For High School Students" (I must've only been interested in FRC or something back then). I put it in the back of my head until I entered High School -- when Team 2502 was started. I've been programming C, Visual Basic, C#, C++, scripting laguages (python, actionscript, JS, ruby), markup languages (XML, (X)HTML, CSS), and LabView since 5th grade (most of them only recently though). Since then, I thought I was going to go in to Computer Science and make a good living out of programming. Boy, has it changed... A lot.

When I helped start the team, I had "known" then that I'd be an engineer -- most likely a programmer. I had internal debates whether I should be an "actual" programmer (like embedded systems or applications on devices/platforms. Platforms other than through a browser) or a Web Developer. I was way more proficient as a Web Developer, so for the past couple years, I've turned my internal focus from a "programmer" (Sorry, I don't know what it's formally called!) to a web developer.

At around the same time I started programming (in 5th grade), I started to pick up the trumpet as part of the school's band program. I had my internal debate about music, too. I had been learning the piano since I was 7 years old. I was only decent at it, though. I didn't have that musical passion or will to actually get myself to become better (I somewhat did, but it took way too long). But during that debate, something flickered inside of me and I decided to completely quit piano and give all I've got -- musically -- to becoming proficient at the Trumpet. At the time, I didn't see a way where I would get something "out" of the piano. Haha, mostly because I hated practicing on the piano. Also, at this point of my life I had no idea that music would be a big part of my life.

This is all when I was like a literal FOB to the max. Poor English, poor pronunciation (I still have problems sometimes when my tongue just stops pronouncing things) and poor grammar. Being who I was, I had literally no or only a few friends from my neighborhood. That fueled my ability to learn and work on this skills. Ever since then, I was hooked and I thought I'd be going in to computer science.

Let's forward about a year. Our lower-middle school "Oak Point" (houses grades 5 and 6) has a honor band called "Bandtastics" and you have to audition and get in. We play difficult music for 6th graders and rehearsals are held after school for a solid few weeks. The Bandtastics joins the Wind Ensemble at the High School (One of the top in the country this year) and performs a concert for parents, Wind Ensemble parents, Wind Ensemble students, and other audience members. It's the pinnacle of Oak Point band experience. It's what every band member strives to join (those who are really interested in music, anyway). I auditioned and got in as last chair by half a point difference than the 11th student who didn't make it in. If I didn't make it, I would've lost self confidence in myself and I would've persued less of my instrument. But, fortunately for me, I made it in. I was really the worst in the Bandtastics. At the first rehearsal, I was lost the whole time. Eventualy I was inspired by the kids in first chairs and I started to improve, and I eventually won one of those chromatic scale contests...

Well, let's forward to the next year. I started taking private lessons at beginning of 7th grade. My lesson teacher asked me why I was playing the trumpet. Haha. This same year, I made up my mind to skip a year of mathematics. I had skipped Pre-Algebra the summer before. Now, I wanted to test out of Geometry. This was probably as close to "engineering" as I got in terms of my efforts. I barely passed, just like I did with Bandtastics, but nevertheless, I passed. (By the way, I'm really lucky that it isn't going on my transcript.)

Well, let's forward to the next year. I bussed to the High School in the morning for math classes, the district provided me with a bus to the Middle School, and I finished my day off at the Middle School. During the spring, audition materials for the High School wind Ensemble (the group that played with Bandtastics) came out. I finally had a chance to get in to the band I had only dreamed of being in. I worked hard and fortunately got in. I actually didn't get in barely this time. I got in as 4th trumpet out of 10 total trumpets (1 of 3 freshmen out of a 75 people band!). It was probably the happiest day I've ever had.

Again, let's forward to the next year, my Freshmen year... I learned that there was a Robotics Team that was starting. I was known around the school as the "Computer Kid." I could fix things that IT Department couldn't figure out. People told me to join and so I joined. We actually started as the "Physics Club" and then just upgraded ourselves to the Robotics Team ;). We were alright as rookies. (We did better rank wise our rookie year than our 2nd year, actually, but not seed-wise for elims -- We didn't go to elims our first year.)

Forward to my Junior year (current). I'm a section leader for the trumpets, our band is one of the 16 best in the country, and we're goin on tour. This past month, I've made the mental decision to go in to music the rest of my life. A natural question followed... Why on earth is a music kid leading Robotics Team? Just to be clear, I still love Robotics, its competitiveness but also its Gracious Professionalism. I learned so much (and still am learning) from Robotics, and I plan on devoting my full attention and energy (maybe exception of practicing my trumpet) in to the team and giving it direction. But really, in essence, Robotics is about inspiring kids to go in to Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics -- none of which Music will do.

I've been living a double-personality life with Robotics (encouraging and inspiring others to go in to STEM while I go in to Music) and it was building up to be "too much" for me so I decided to discuss it with ChiefDelphi and ask if there are any others that have gone through this crossroad I'm at. I know I am not going to give up Music, at least just not yet, but I am wondering if any others on ChiefDelphi (or you know of anyone) that decided to major in an instrumental performance or Music Education that was in robotics. If they've changed their mind, regretted anything, or actually thought they made the right decision. Let's talk!

Thanks,
Keehun
Team 2502.

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

The bottom line is that you have to follow your heart. There is nothing wrong with doing robotics and enjoying something else as well.
Just to site a few examples from our team:
Our 2009 WFFA winner went to school for Digital Media Arts even though she was a kid on our 2001 -2003 build team.
Our current co-captain and build team leader is going to major in History in college. This does not diminish her love of engineering.
Our 2003 Einstein driver was a building fanatic, but went to school for Art. He knew this was his path.
Even if don't go into Engineering, you will have a lifelong appreciation of the engineering process. I have found in my work as an engineer, that if non-engineering workers have some understanding of the process, then they are more sympathetic to our engineering needs. It all helps.

I hope this makes you feel better about your decisions.

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

Nice post.

I have a few things to say:

1) being good in music and engineering is not that uncommon. When I was at the University of Michigan, the marching band had more students from the college of engineering than any other school - and it's a pretty good marching band.

2) There's nothing wrong with encouraging STEM education while you do something else yourself. I left behind my career in engineering to be a pilot for the last four years, but I still stayed involved in FIRST - and I was every bit convinced about the goals of FIRST even though I quit engineering myself. (As a side note, I'm back being an engineer again - but that's another long story.)

3) I can understand where you're coming from. When I was in high school, I was convinced that I would be a music major. Then sometime around my junior or senior year I decided that I can be a starving musician or a well paid engineer and still enjoy music as a hobby. I studied engineering, did a lot of fun things in the mean time, and I still play in a band or two. It was nice having the choice.

I guess what I'm saying is that having multiple skill sets is always a good thing, and that allows you a lot of options in life. Just do whatever you choose to do with all of your abilities, and enjoy the ride.

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

Why do you think you have to limit your interests to one area? You can be a musician who hobbies in robotics, or you can be an engineer/scientist/CS who plays trumpet for relaxation. In fact, there were studies that showed computer programmers were much more likely to appreciate and participate in music than the general population; they suspected it was something to do with the same parts of the brain being used for both activities. And as an anecdote, when my son was in the University of Michigan Marching Band a couple years ago, there were more students from the College of Engineering than from any other school.

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

In my long career (in other words, I'm old) many of my years have been spent in hiring roles -- software engineering supervisor and manager.
By far -- really not even close -- the 2 best hires I ever made were both:

1) females
2) music majors in college

Maybe just coincidence -- but maybe not.

Edit: I should have just spelled this out.
Be as many things as your passion and ability allow you to be.
And don't let the fact that you're a male deter you -- I didn't. :yikes:

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

Keehun - Beware of false dichotomies - They are pernicious - Blake

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

It's not that uncommon to be involved in FIRST but not continue on to an engineering career. While it is certainly the goal that FIRST works toward, they also slip in some great skills along the way (your awards submissions, fundraising, and team marketing are a fantastic example of this). Sometimes students are more interested in those "little extras" than the actual robot. I know I'm not the first to say this, but I will be the loudest - It's okay to feel that way! You certainly aren't alone.

It's okay to be involved with FIRST but have your interests lie in a different part of the team support system. Someone has to raise money for the team, figure out the transportation logistics to and from events, make sure the team is properly clothed, and even pick up the kit of parts. Sometimes this is a "team mom" that does this, but there's a lot of team dads, team engineers, team teachers, and community supporters that make this happen on countless teams as well.

It took me my whole year on a high school team to find my niche, and it wasn't until after I graduated that I realized I wasn't interested in the robots as much as I was interested in the logistics and planning for the team. I managed to translate that realization into a number of positions that include all those little extras in an engineering-rich setting. I assure you, there's a place for you out there - there's certainly something for everyone.

In the meantime, I would still urge you to stay involved with FIRST and don't shy away from the robot just because you believe engineering is not for you. There's still valuable knowledge to be gained in working with an engineering build group, and you don't want to limit your possibilities later in life.

Good luck!

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

In high school, why chose one over the other? Like you, I also play the trumpet. In my senior year, I was both a core member of my robotics team and 1st chair of the trumpet section of my school's symphonic band. A majority of the members of 1625 are also in our school's music programs (or at least when I was there). During the build season, shuttling kids to and from the high school to play at basketball games as part of the school band was very much a part of the team's operation schedule. Additionally, since I qualified for the Illinois All-State orchestra among other music festivals, I had to juggle my obligations to both music and robotics. It was a challenge but not impossible. While I was on the team, I was exclusively a hardware person, however, I did not choose engineering as a career. I am now studying to become a software developer at the CMU School of Computer Science. I have not given up music, but am in my school's marching band (or as we like to say, "precision standing band" ;)) Regardless of which career path you ultimately choose, the positive impact of the experience of going through the FIRST program is undeniable.

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

I have had the pleasure of getting to know hundreds of students over my years in FIRST. Many of them have never touched the robot, but played important roles on the team and have gone on to major in important fields like teaching and communications and business and yes, music. I know of two who have duel majors in music and engineering. One is involved with engineering of sound (there is a fancier name for it :) )

There is a reason that 40% of the FIRST scholarships are for students majoring in any field. Colleges know that FIRSTers know how to work as a team, can problem solve and know how to work hard. These are skills useful for any productive member of society.

Follow your dream, understanding that it is ok to to change your mind. Hopefully college will be an experience where you will be exposed to all sorts of opportunities to learn about new things. You may end up majoring in something completely different than you think right now.

I have had lots of wonderful jobs and experiences because I was willing to take some chances. One of the best career decisions I ever made was to drop out of college with 9 credits to go to take a job washing dishes at night so I could hike during the day. This sounds crazy, (and there is obviously a story here) but sometimes life presents itself in crazy ways. Be open to these opportunities.

ps. I did go back to college years later, different major, and also went on to earn a graduate degree.

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

Just to add another possibility to the mix... at Carnegie Mellon (at least in the CS dept.), Prof. Roger Dannenberg is mildly famous for being the CS guy who plays the trumpet too. He has cross appointments in the School of Computer Science (SCS) and the College of Fine Arts (CFA). For those who are into computer music, his lab produced both Nyquist (one of the first audio-programming languages) and the Audacity audio editor, and he was doing work on auto-accompaniment software as early as the 1980s. CMU also has a BCSA degree (Bachelor of Computer Science and Art), in which the curriculum is taken from the SCS and CFA and combines them.

Okay, school promotion aside, just saying there may be ways to combine your passions in closer ways than you think.

Luck,
--Ryan

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

My school is a vocational school containing 16 seperate vocational areas. Students from almost all of those shops are on our robotics team. Most of our students are not going into engineering, but rather their individual fields. Many of our students are talented in many different areas and that is great. It comes in handy in the work force, that's why we run our team like a business with seperate subteams and shops.

Also, I was one of the top trumpet players and only bassoon player in my middle school. My currrent school does not have a band, so i produce music and have a band on the side. It was a tough decision to make, but i know that it will pay off. Music is one of the great things that you dont really need to take a class for.

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

The SCS department/School of Music also gives a Bachelor of Science in Music and Technology. :)

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

I think its great though that you have a passion for robotics and music. Most students from my school end up going into engineering (partially because all students are required to take 4 years of engineering and that is one of the perks of the school). I am a student that is kind of like you; caught between 2 paths. I am currently a co-leader of our build team and LOVE engineering, but I am planning on majoring in Biology when I get into college because I want to pursue my dream of becoming a doctor. I have had that internal debate about if I really want to become a doctor or an engineer. As a freshman in high school (currently a junior), I was looking at colleges based off of if they had a good pre-medicine program AND engineering program in case I changed my mind because I was so unsure at that moment. All I have to say is do what feels right, and whatever you choose to do will be the right decision. Whatever you choose not to pursue you will still always have.

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

Wow, what a story!

Personally, I plan on majoring in Environmental Policy or something of the sort. As a captain, I encourage my kids (I'm also nicknamed Team Mom) to explore all the parts of Robotics-from working on the robot to working on our business plan and other lit. As a freshman, I worked with the robot far more than any business stuff, but now, as a junior, I'm in charge of everything but the robot. For a while, I thought of Environmental Engineering, but since my math and science are somewhat lacking (despite being Chinese, haha), I'm leaning towards other environmental majors. Although I'm not as connected with engineering, I do understand it, and especially as a freshman, was inspired by the things we did.

I also understand your love of music. I'm flute section leader, and I regularly participate in District Bands and other extracurricular bands. I admire your dedication to trumpet, and I think it's awesome that you want to pursue music as your career! I think FIRST does encourage technology, science, and engineering, but at the same time, I think a good part of it is just finding something that you love to do, and from my experiences with FIRST, people will support you whatever you do. From my team, I know that there are budding engineering majors, but also pre-med, and even, I think, a Classics major who happens to be on our build team. I certainly don't think that just because someone works with a robot and loves it means that they have to major in something science/tech/engineering related.

Reading other people's posts...it seems music majors can do anything! For instance, I know one of the admissions people at Wash U in St. Louis majored in music and look what she's doing now ;)

I wish you all the best!
~Hannah

(Incidentally, have you competed in the National Trumpet Competition? One of my best friends also plays trumpet.)

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

Wow. In respect to you, I'm not even a trumpet player. Dang, Illinois All-State Orchestra? You must've been one of the best. Chicago students are eligible for Illinois All-State Orchestra, right? Wow. Haha sorry but I'm having one of those "OH WTF" moments (in a very good and hopefully positive way...)

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

I have not. I wish I was the caliber of these contestants! I could throw my academic life away and practice trumpet all day, but I don't think that's a sustainable plan, either, since even if I practice 10 hours a day and start winning these competitions, there will always be someone better than me -- to get that one orchestral job that I needed to keep myself fed. I'm not too interested in the pure performance and competing with others. I want to spread and share the passion of music by being a teacher. Nonetheless, I have auditions coming up and I'm preparing hard for those! It sucks that it coincides with the robotics season... Anyway... :)

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

Keehun, just being a city away and having not quite the same experience for the first half of your story, but the ending about choosing between band and Robotics/Engineering. I remember everyday at my elementary school going to the library and hoping, that there was a new robotics book in the robot section there. I wanted to know all there was about robotics since I was in elementary school. By my first grade year I had already read every book on robotics in the school library. But once fifth grade came around for me, I too joined the band group in Bloomington. Originally I started with the violin, but after playing the violin for about 6 months I switched to percussion. At this point I forgot all about robotics, band was my life I was in the marching band, I stayed after school every single day to practice my malleting skills on the marimba. I did this until my sophomore year, when I heard about this new thing at my school called "Robotics Club," now many of my friends were in this club, and they convinced me to join, because I too was the so called computer geek of my grade. They said I could fix a computer just by looking at it. My best memory of this was one day when the IT staff was gone, and I ended up fixing all of the computers in my elementary school because of a programming error Apple made with Appleworks at the time >.< anyways, I joined the robotics club and at the same time I joined the school play, which was Charlie and the Chocolate factory, now I admit that, that was a big mistake. I swear no one will ever see me dressed up like an oompa loompa for as long as I live. I ended up missing most of the robotics season because I was always at play practice. The next year I realized that robotics was a big thing in my life and I quit everything except for Band, Marching band and Robotics. I tried so hard for robotics that year (Which was last year) and I ended up becoming the team's driver that year, and the lead programmer. After winning the 10,000 Lakes regional (which I must say REALLY inspired me) and going to Georgia (I must recommend you to going to this even if your team is not going Keehun, It is an amazing experience to have in your life.) I became the summer captain of the team, and ran meetings and events for the team throughout the summer. After the summer past, so at the beginning of this year I was voted captain of the robotics team. Now over this past summer I also participated in Marching Band (Drumline which required about 40 hours of practice every week) and I am in the Wind Ensemble at my school. Because of my continued practicing on the mallets since freshman year, I am now the best mallet player in the school and I can play some things even college members cannot. Alas, I am captain of the robotics team, and leading is a very hard thing to do on Jefferson's Robotics Team, especially since we only have 3 members coming back from last year, not including myself. I have a team of 17 newbies that have no idea what they are doing, but it is my job to inspire and create things in their mind that I hope will inspire them to become like me and lead the robotics team one day. This year we re-named our Robotics Club to Robotics Team. All of this was possible because I planned out the entire season as best as possible before the season started. That officially meant that we were a varsity sport at our school. Marching Band is also a Varsity Sport at our school, which posed quite a large problem. I ended up losing about 2 solos in the drumline because I kept getting too sick from trying to bobble Robotics, Drumline/Marching Band, and homework all into one. I had to make a decision between Robotics and band, and of course I chose band because, well I don't know why I chose it but I did. Now that The robotics season is here I have had to almost quit band, that means the only time I am in band all day is during my last period. I don't have time to practice anything even after school. Now overall I would have to say that my best experience in high school is not one thing, but two. The friends I made in Band, and the accomplishment I felt after going to my first FIRST Robotics Competition Regional. Band helped me get through the rough times, and Robotics inspired me to become a better person, and to try to help people become better people themselves. As a career choice I think I am going to go with Engineering, why? Because I can engineer and still play the mallets, but I can play mallets and engineer. Music has helped me through my life more then I can explain with mere words, but I can always still have music with engineering.

Yeah, this is kind of all my thoughts poured into one run-on paragraph. I've never been good a essays sorry! D: I hope it is at least understandable/readable!

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

Hey, were you at the University of Minnesota Honor Band? What grade are you in? You definitely need to try out for that and/or All-State.

Anyway, thank you for all your stories! Looks like I'm not quite alone in having the internal debates... (Not that I honestly expected me to be the only person)

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

I was on the exact same road as you are on right now. I was considering a career in the music field or the engineering field. After putting a lot of thought into the decision, and asking for peoples' thoughts and opinion regarding the two majors/fields, I decided to go for engineering. I will not list the reasons why I favored engineering instead of music, because I do not want to possibly persuade you from doing what you truly want to do (If you want me to give you my reasons, then I will).

I don't really know my scales at all. I'm a drummer for my schools marching band, so scales are not something I have experience with... ;)

In regards to careers, I agree with the handful of people that have been saying that you should do what you want to do. A good career, in my opinion, is not only about making a decent profit, but it is also about having fun with what you want to do. As of now, I plan on going to college for mechanical engineering (maybe a double major in education), so I can be a physics teacher and/or an engineer when I become older. As it has been said before, do what you think is best for you, and do what makes you happy.

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

I am in a similar situation to you. I am involved in the build of our robot and am on the pit crew, but i do not plan on going into any field that involve what i am learning. I feel out of place when judges ask me what i want to go into, because i am not going into engineering, but i still enjoy doing robotics as an extra-curricular, and want to learn as much as I can. i may be only a sophmore, but i would say enjoy your time in robotics, but follow what you really want to do.

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

Keehun, the next time you've got the trumpet in your hands and there's a couple of bars of rest on the score, take the "measure" of your instrument and consider the engineering that must have been required to get it into your hands. Metallurgy, applied physics, etc. etc. all played a part in the fabrication of your horn. If FIRST is the reason you or anyone else has a degree of appreciation for some other discipline, then it's a good result for all of us.

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

You bring up something I've been thinking about. So some of the best trumpet players around have started up designing their own horns and making companies. Several well known are Vincent Bach and Monette (Monette is like the Lamborghini of all trumpets. 200hrs worth of hand-made artistry craft. Wynton Marsalis plays on one). I was thinking about prototyping my own horn and developing it as I become a better performer. Anyhow, it's just an idea...

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

That sounds like fun. When I was in high school I made a trombone out of PVC. A small funnel was used for the mouthpiece and a large one was used for the bell. The challenge was to make an instrument that can play a scale out of plumbing parts. It didn't sound great, but it actually worked.

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

We try and track our students, and over the past 10 years about 85% of our students go to college with plans to major in a STEM area - mainly engineering, but not all by far. In reality, a lot of these change their majors after a year or two for various reasons. In my experience almost half of all college students end up graduating in a field other than what they had planned with they started. (Okay, my experience in college was a long, long time ago)

One story from our team. We had a student on the team several years ago who had always wanted to study meteorology. He applied early decision to the meteorology department at Penn State and was accepted. In his first conference with his adviser, he was told the main reason he was accepted early was because of his FIRST experience. Colleges want you even for non-engineering majors. Go for what you enjoy.

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

There is no "correct" answer if the judges ask this question. The answer " i still enjoy doing robotics as an extra-curricular, and want to learn as much as I can" is honest and just fine.

Think about what it is you enjoy learning if you want to give a more specific response. The technical aspects? Working as a team? Meeting new people? Going to competitions? (I could list about 100 categories, but you get the idea).

What is it that keeps you working and learning on the team?

Re: FIRST for Non-Engineering Students
 

good point