pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

This is actually a pretty ingenious idea. I would check with the GDC about legality, but I don't see why they would disallow this.

Depending on how you attach your bumpers (with bolts, for example), you could also run a bolt through the flap to make absolutely sure it won't go anywhere.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

That is really cool! Agree with Jared, if it works out put a bolt on there to help hold it!

Very smart idea!:]

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

That's a great idea. Please get an official answer from the GDC on whether it satisfies the bumper rules.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Great idea. I will be interested in what the GDC rules.

You could put a grommet in the flap on each side and have a bolt that goes through the grommet to hold it in place.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

What a great idea. I hope this gets approved.

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Genius. Love it.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

This is legit! I always love when good ideas come from central ill

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

That's a very elegant solution. I love it.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

hope they approve this it is a great idea

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Thanks for the feedback. We'll probably back up the velcro with grommets or something similar. The only downside I can think of is it coming loose and leaving the bumper zone.

I haven't been able to post this to Q&A yet (I need to get our login information), but feel free to use my picture and ask them yourself.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that while this is an ingenious idea, it probably won't be approved. Quoting <R12>, "Therefore, each ROBOT must be able to display red BUMPERS and blue BUMPERS This may be done via either of two acceptable methods:" and then it goes on to list the methods.

What they don't say is if any other method is acceptable. That's what I'd ask. If I had Q&A access, I would say something like: "We have found another method to change bumper color. We would like to know if we are allowed to use this method. [describe method] If this is not legal, we would also like to know which rule it specifically violates."

Like I say, I'm not sure this method would go through, but I'd love it if it did. I'd also use the grommet attachment suggested.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Has anyone posted this on the Q&A yet? I am my team's Q&A guy, so I will gladly do it if the OP has yet to gain access to the Q&A. I would actually just copy the picture and use Eric's question format. :D lol

-Rion

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Go ahead, that would be appreciated. Eric's phrasing of the question sounds good.

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I really like this idea, you guys are good! The Q&A has the final say on this though as to whether it satisfies R12. I wonder why someone didn't think of this before.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

I hope this get's approved, if it does this could save a LOT of teams (mine included) from having to make 2 sets of bumpers or a bumper cover that could potentially fall off!

Can't wait to see the GDC feedback on this one! :yikes:

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Innovation at its finest. Wonderful idea, and I also hope it gets approved. :D

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I have posted this to the Q&A. For the moment it can be found here.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Not only is this ingenious, it also radically reduces the possibility of the secondary, or slip cover, color from hanging down and causing a penalty due to rough play.

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If you posted it there, in the "New Topics" forum, it will not get answered. If you actually want an official answer to your question, it has to be submitted to the "Submit Your Questions Here" forum (clever title, eh?). Access to the submission forum is limited to the officially appointed team representative.

-dave


.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

How do you do the ends? Great idea but i just can't picture the ends.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Sorry about that. I fixed it. (That Submit Your Questions Here" forum is well hidden... )

Sorry about that everyone,
Rion

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If this is approved would you mind other teams using the idea?

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

This is a great idea. Kudos to whoever thought of it

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Has it been submitted? Answered yet?

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Formerly Famous submitted it, but I don't see it in the submit area, so maybe the GDC removes them from the submit area until they post the answer in the responses section. Another possibility is that they put something in the team update (don't those usually come out on Tuesday?).

IF this gets approved, anyone is welcome to use it. The more people that use it, the more we can develop and tweak it for next year.

This might explain the idea a little better. The sections on the right and left side would be on the sides of the bumper.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Instead of velcro, perhaps a line of several snap fasteners would work better. Same repeatability, a bit more grip.

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The snap fasteners sound good. Using grommets and pulling them over a post should work as well. The tension from compressing the noodles as you pull the flap back should hold it.

Read all about snap fasteners here:
http://www.snapsource.com/faqs/introtosnaps.php
The only question is if they are strong enough.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Looks like it is legal --- if I am reading this right.

Alternately, the ROBOT may use changeable BUMPER covers. The BUMPER covers
− may be removable, reversible, or fixed

From Update #9 http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...Update%209.pdf

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

I think we all need to see that the GDC can recognize and value good and creative ways to play the game. They can see a good solution and are willing to make it possible to use it...

A round of applause for them!!

And now a bigger round of applause for the ingenious inventors of this bumper idea..!!!

Thank you for sharing!!!

When we share .... everyone benefits....!!

see you on the field...
now we just have to figure out how to sew these...!!

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Well I guess that answers my question... now we just have to build them :ahh:

Better get to work, I'll be sure to post some pictures when we finish.

Anyone's welcome to use this design (or come up with other methods and post them!), but make sure you follow all the rules and build them robustly. On another note, it's pretty cool our idea made it into a team update...:cool:

But this raises the question of if the stitching is allowed... would it count as "fabric?"

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Stitching is used to hem fabric all the time. As long as you use a good strong thread and not something weird like weld rod to stitch the fabric, I can not imagine an inspector who would not allow it.

JMHO,

Mike

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And the answer to the question...

B. Alternately, the ROBOT may use changeable BUMPER covers. The BUMPER covers
− may be removable, reversible, or fixed
− must completely enclose the BUMPERS
− must show only a single color such that when the BUMPER covers are in use, only fabric of the assigned ALLIANCE color may be visible.

We all win, nice job guys! Take a pat on the back out of petty cash!

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Caution re: snap fasteners. I think Velcro is a bit easier to work with. Snap fasteners:
--can be tricky to attach. You have to get it right on the first try.
--must be precisely aligned
--can sometimes be difficult to fasten
--often come unsnapped when under stress

There's a reason Velcro has outstripped snap fasteners in popularity. So be sure to experiment and test, test, test with extra fabric and bumper assemblies before committing to using snap fasteners on your competition bumpers.

Thread shouldn't be a problem; use of fabric implies use of thread, even more so than use of aluminum or steel implies use of welding. Thread is not generally regarded as a "fastener" the way buttons, snaps, and Velcro are.

Invisible thread would solve the problem of color matching. Sulky brand invisible thread is nicer to work with than some others, but I don't know if it's as strong. Sewing a second line of stitching over the first line of stitching is a good way to make a strong seam using any kind of thread.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

You might consider fusible interfacing between the red and blue to keep them laying flat and neat.

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Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

The other interesting change due to Update #9 is that apparently non-red/blue bumpers are allowed, as long as the covers are red and blue (or reversible red & blue).

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

I agree. They struck out the wording "constructed with a fabric covering of one color" which was the basis for the base bumper cover having to be red or blue. My reasoning in this previous post http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=22 is no longer valid.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Rule <R07-F> has not been changed and is still in force.



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Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

For reference,

I believe Tristan's comment meant that the bumpers themselves could be any color as long as the covers were the correct Red/Blue. This appears to be supported by the rules as well.

Now if the rule said: "The fabric the bumper is constructed of must be solid red or solid blue in color....." then it would be a different story.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Rule <R07> discusses the bumpers. Rule <R12-B> discusses removable/reversible covers. The changes to Rule <R12-B> in Update #9 do not affect the fact that Rule <R07> still requires that the BUMPERS be a single, solid red or blue color.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

I think to save everyone the hastle, just make a set of red and blue bumpers, case closed and worry about building the robot.
Seattle Fabrics doesnt have a shortage of those colors. :D

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

OK, in light of BOTH rules <R07> and <R12-B>, I must concede you are correct again.
[Billbo bows in the presence of greatness....again]



(Man, my bald spot is starting to turn red from all the head slaps. Maybe I should read every rule on every detail before I stick my foot in my mouth again.) :o

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Dave,
Thank you for your thoughts on the matter.

This not being an official FIRST forum, I am asking your opinion, with the explicit understanding that your opinion (possibly expressed here) carries no weight at all as far as inspection, rules, or competitions are concerned. That is, your opinion is not an official communication from FIRST. Just some guy's opinion.

Is it legal to use the idea presented here?

Don
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Dave,
The proposed construction method above would present a single piece/color of fabric to the view of all. A good seamstress would of course use a different color when stitching the fabric so that the red side is stitched in red and the blue side in blue. Numbers would of course have to be present on both sides.

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The only problem I see with the fold over bumper cover design is how do you keep the ends covered in the correct color?

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Don, the Q&A said to read Update #9. http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14549

Given that it met all bumper rules with either color showing, my (unofficial) opinion is that it would pass inspection.

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Ah, I didn't get that connection; I was a little fuzzy on how we got from the idea to #9; now I see it was directly through Q&A. OK then.

I don't want to put words into Dave's mouth (but I will anyway):p but I think he was just reminding us that there are other issues to consider when skinning a bumper...

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

The wording you cite in <R07>, paragraph F is ambiguous, because the removable fabric cover is also "[t]he fabric covering the BUMPERS" (it is fabric, it is a cover, and it is identified as part of the bumpers in <R10> and by implication in the preface to <R07>).

If you interpret <R07F> to deal with the fabric directly enclosing the pool noodles, or all fabric in the bumpers, then I agree, your interpretation is accurate. However, if you interpret the same paragraph to refer instead to the single layer of "fabric covering the BUMPERS", then the combination of <R07> and <R12> does not restrict the colour of the rest of the bumper, when properly covered with a red or blue fabric shroud.

Is the intent of that part of the rule simply to permit clear identification, or also to restrict the selection of fabric colours and markings that will be invisible during matches?

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

Read the second paragraph of Section 8.3 of The Manual. Apply Occam's Razor. Which interpretation do you think is true?

Or, just show up at a competition with purple and yellow plaid bumpers at a competition and try to pass inspection.




.

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As mentioned before, there is one thing that must be taken into account when using this bumper cover configuration. Do not forget that the ends of the bumpers must also be wrapped in such a way that ONLY the alliance color you are on at that time can be seen.
The banging around that is sure to happen in this game can very easily place considerable forces on the cover fabric. Those forces need to be anticipated and handled in a way that will prevent the cover from slipping and exposing the opposing alliance color.


I'm getting the distinct impression from Dave that this will be strictly enforced. The bottom line is, you can spend up to $8500 to build a robot and enter a competition, but every rule must be met to the letter or you can't participate. IMHO, that is as it should be. Otherwise, why have rules?

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Does the velcro have to bed red/blue?

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

The Velcro on the bumpers does not need to be red/blue because the Velcro should never show
I'd suggest something along the lines of fishing wire for the "heavy duty stitching"

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

When experienced FIRST participants such as Gary and I arrive at a different interpretation than you do—and yet, that interpretation relies only upon the plainest meaning of "cover", i.e. that which keeps the inside from being on the outside—it is hardly fitting to liken it to the difference between lawyers and engineers.

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We have made a set of reversable bumpers and that has been the tricky part.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

After much wrangling and wrestling with the bumpers, especially with the soft ended ones, we came up with a very simple solution, which was very good because I was at the point of begging to make a second set of bumpers! :yikes:

Add a strip of fabric to the flap about 2-1/2 inches wide and 5-6 inches long and sew it to align with the seam line joining the two colors where the flap starts. Put sturdy velcro on the strip and a matching piece on the back or the bumper (or on the adjacent bumper). When you fold the ends pull this strip the whole way over the end and secure the velcro. It holds all of the end fabric in place and hides any stray edges of the wrong color.

If you need a better description or photos to help you from tearing the blasted bumpers to shreds, let me know. :rolleyes:

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We finished our bumpers and have them on the robot. We tailored the corners so they can fold over on themselves and cover... they have velcro.

I will continue to salute the team that came up with this innovate design..and to those that have boldly gone ahead and done it...and made it work.

I will continue to choose to believe that the spirit of the regulations is what is important... the intent ot his rule should be plain to anyone without meadering the rules..or worrying about it.

When you go on the field you should be identified as either the red or the blue alliance based on the bumper color.

Dave mentioned this rule:

<R07-F>. The fabric covering the BUMPERS must be solid red or solid blue in color. Visually, the red or blue must be as close to the corresponding color in the FIRST logo as reasonable (i.e. to a reasonably astute observer, they appear similar). The only markings permitted on the BUMPER fabric cover are the team number (see Rule <R15>).

One can read that many ways.... and if your bumpers are capable of being covered by solid red or blue fabric...the intent AND the word of the rule are satisfied.

Covering means what is on the OUTSIDE of the bumper...

Good luck and have a great time at the competition
We hope to see you on the field...

We have a pic of our robot on CD here with the bumpers on if anyone wants to do a quick search...blue out in the pic...

take care

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

that is exactly what team paragon did... they are the coolest bumbers we have ever had

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For the teams that tried this idea -- did the bumpers pass inspection and how well did they work?

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Absolutely! It was fun with the first weigh-in for our team. We put the red covered bumpers on the scale and the inspector said, "I need to see the blue ones, too." One of our team mentors, who was standing there, turned to a team member and said, "Go get the blue bumpers." The team member got a very confused look on his face. He turned to go and then turned back and said, "Wait, we only have one set!" Then it was the mentor's turn to look confused!

Our only problem with them was in Atlanta when the robot hooked on the robot gate with the bumper with enough force to pull the velcroed flap open to expose the other color. The drive team made sure to take an extra few seconds after that to make sure the cover was pulled tight and the velcro pieces aligned. Compared to some of the saggy bumper covers we saw, the two sided ones were much more elegant!

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I would love to see some pics if any team has them!

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Here is Rolling Thunder's Thunderfoot with the red-side fabric on the outside: 1511 Red Bumper,

and with the blue-side out: 1511 Blue Bumper.

You could tell the double sided bumpers by the tell-tale horizontal seam along the centerline of the bumpers.

(Can you tell what pose is my favorite for our robot? ;) )

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Those look really good!

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Ya our team did the same team. I think that the bumper covers were too loose looking

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Our team did the same thing. It was so easy to switch between bumpers. We went out to get on the field after we were working on the robot. Our bumpers were the wrong color and a volunteer said, "You guys have the wrong bumpers on! You need to change them!" We switched colors before she could finish her sentence.

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You can see our version of these bumpers here:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/35596

We never had any problems with them and the field crew loved the fact we made them for them.

One set was far simpler than making two.

Thanks again for the idea.

Pete

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1747 used that bumper design. when our robot is back, i can get pics of it.

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Same with us...at one of our inspections this was the flow of our bumper checking:

1) we show up with bumpers set for blue
2) he tells us to put the red bumpers on the scale
3) we explain that they are the same bumpers, just flipped differently
4) we put our bumpers (still in blue mode) on the scale
5) he tells us he wanteds to weigh the red ones, not the blue ones
6) we have to change them to red to get weighed
7) we take bumpers off
8) he tells us we need to now weigh the blue bumpers......
9) as we swich them over, he still doesnt understand that they are the same bumpers......

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wow! very creative and innovative!!!!!!!! I dont know for sure that it's legal, but it should be. I mean, its 1 piece (assuming your heavy duty stitching holds up) it seems less likely to "have an incident" than the current bumper covers do. I've seen a couple matches where robots bumper covers fall off... if made correctly this would help prevent that! great idea.

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Used it and loved it, didnt look quite as good as individual sets but we're lazy....

thanks for the idea

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yeah... they passed inspection... the inspectors asked, lets see the red bumpers... so we quickly rushed to flip to the red bumpers... they thought it was the coolest thing ever... they by far are the coolest bumper's we have ever had

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Sweet! I've gotta show my team this! We spent six hours making our bumpers, and this would cut that down to about two.


Thaine

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If i could upload a picture i would, maybe i will have to upload one CD media. They were really quite slick, excellent idea.

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Our team tried out the reversible bumper last year, and it's a good concept but be very careful! When the bumpers were on one color, small fringes of the other color would show, especially on the ends and sides. Our inspector let it slide, but said if we were to go to Nationals, that wouldn't be legal. So with a project like that, make it perfect

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I know that 1511 did that in 2010, and I have seen it on a few other robots too. It's a really cool idea, although I'm not sure if it is legal with this year's set of bumper rules.

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This is what we used last year: link

Quick-change and inspector approved. :D

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Skunkworks (1983) has been using this idea for three years now and have never had a problem in inspection. They work wonderfully and they come in handy on the Fourth of July when we show BOTH red and blue at the same time...alternating bumpers......

Find any picture of one of our robots from 2010,2011, 2012 and you will see these... I encourage more teams to use it....

Less to haul around.... less materials to waste every year...

works and looks great...

see you on the field!!

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Amazing bumpers :D

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Ive seen these before specifically by 3130 last year, as far as i know they didn't have any problems with inspection.

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Whoever thought of this... is a WIZARD!:yikes:

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1425 has something similar. You should be okay, just make sure to cover the corners.

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We did this last year and made it through two regionals and CMP. Everyone was very impressed.

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People have thought of it. We, the High Tekerz, do exactly that with our bumpers. It certainly is legal (our mentor who happens to be a robot inspector made sure of that) and it saves a LOT of time and effort.

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The OP was in 2010. It wasn't legal then.

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My team did this settup last year, and it was a dream... Well-designed bumpers are SO worth it. Here's a video of them in action: http://youtu.be/DlyujQaTLlA

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I realized that after I'd posted. Oops.

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It was legal in 2010. This post was put in the Q&A to verify that it was.

Also we did this in 2010 and 2011 but I don't think we would do it again. As much of a pain as it is to make to sets of bumpers we realized that it takes less time and less skilled labor to make 2 sets. We also didn't like the way the velcro, used to allow the color change, never allowed the flaps to sit right.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

That is the exact bumper system we used last year, it passed inspection at all our events and was an awesome system, the drive team was able to change colors in the queing line in a matter of seconds!!

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

This idea is pretty much what we did last year. It worked out great since we didn't have to fiddle with taking bumpers on and off. The changeover could be accomplished in a few seconds.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

2075 has been using this for 4 years, no problems with inspection!

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It may be more effort to make bumpers using this design than it is to make 2 sets... but the amount of time saved in the pits changing bumpers is definitely worth it!

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It only took one instance of showing up to staging with the wrong color showing to convince me of how awesome reversible bumpers are. 10 seconds later we were correct.

We're never going back to separate bumpers ever again.

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I would have to agree. This is really ingenious. As to the legality, I would definitely check on the Q&A, they are the final authority on questions like this.
I've seen teams' bumper covers come completely off during a match and not get penalized. Probably not a good thing but that's what happens.

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I'm asking for a mod to lock this; the question is now answered and 4 years old.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

We've been doing this with our bumpers for a couple of years now. No one has ever challeneged them. In fact, we won a judges award at one of our competitions due in part to the bumpers.

The big advantages are 1) only one set of bumpers to keep track of, pack and transport, and 2) quick and easy color change.

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

We made bumpers like these last year with great success

Re: pic: Bumper idea - legal?
 

We used this method at the 2012 Israeli Regional and passed inspection just fine. It worked great and was very easy to switch the colors.
if you plan on using one bumper piece to circle the robot than plan the cornres and how the fabric will "bend". Take time to really plan it before you manufacture it..

Video of the switching

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I hope someone hasn't posted this before, but team 2809 has a tutorial on how to make these on our website. http://kbots.files.wordpress.com/201...ble-bumper.pdf. Best of luck to everyone using them, they are super handy.

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Could you post the pics or e-mail them to me at calamari.ethan@gmail.com, that would be VERY helpful. I am having a hard time visualizing what you mean. Thanks. :)

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Looks real good. Had trouble last year. Only thought about two bumpers, one red, one blue. All four sides were connected. To any team that is thinking about doing that, DON'T (!!!!!!!):eek: , it is a terribly hard sewing job.