Best of the Best
 

::confused: Which team has the best chance of wining and why?:cool:


Only thing to Fear is Fear itself.-FDR

Re: Best of the Best
 

The wise bet here is not to pass judgment until we see Wk 1 regionals, however, it can be safely assumed that the perennial powerhouses (1114, 111, 254, 2056, 1503, 25, 47 51, 148, 217 to name a few) will put forward a strong entry once again.

Re: Best of the Best
 

I think this game is right up 118's alley.

Re: Best of the Best
 

I actually think that this year we will see teams in the 2000's emerge as power house teams. The low 2000's have a couple years experience now. The game seems very heavy on strategy with the new rankings, and strategy is something anyone can be good at, given enough time to study.

Re: Best of the Best
 

Really?

Already?

Re: Best of the Best
 

There could be some merit to this statement (low 2000 teams were rookies in 2007).

Course, theres 2056, who've shown us all they're a powerhouse from the get go.

2056 is poised to set a record, come Waterloo Regional. They've won 6 out of 6 regionals they've competed in, and won IRI in their rookie year. HUGE accomplishments. Can they go 7 for 7 and 8 for 8 at Waterloo and GTR this year, and go 4 time defending champs at both? We'll have to wait and see.

Re: Best of the Best
 

You sound like Michael Kay (New York Yankees announcer who doesn't believe in jinxes). Well I hope they can do it, as it would be an amazing feat.

Of course I meant teams other than 2056 too.

Re: Best of the Best
 

:cool: My team 2389 will definitly be in the top this year.:cool:

Only thing to Fear is Fear itself.-FDR

Re: Best of the Best
 

I don't know how many times I've heard my own team say something to this effect.

I wish you luck, but never underestimate the power of other teams. They will think of everything you didn't. What decides who wins and loses is largely the strategizing at competition, and to a lesser extent the robots themselves. I recall many times people on here and at competitions remarking how often the best offense, is a good defense. There have been some teams who are consistently good at defense, even if they are lacking in other areas, and they can often shut down a really good scoring robot.

Every year I see at least one robot that makes me go: "wow, that's so elegant and simple, why didn't I think of that?"

Re: Best of the Best
 

Jordan, Confidence is good, but we are not ensured going to the top.
You never know how it will turn out. Tone it down a little.

Re: Best of the Best
 

I have to agree with this. Usually half of the robots at competition are capable of winning given the optimal alliance and game play for their team. The problem is in setting up such an alliance.

Scouting wins matches.

Relationships with other teams wins matches.

Knowing your opponents, and knowing how other teams can help you is a key to being the best.

25 and 103 as a team ruled NJ and even other regionals for a few years now. From an external observers point of view, their relationship was solid. Sure they were great robots, but teamwork is always what wins.

Re: Best of the Best
 

Agreed folks...week 1 is where its at.

Re: Best of the Best
 

Yeah, I cannot wait until we get the robots out on the field and start playing.

Re: Best of the Best
 

This conversation, no matter when or where it's held, presumes by its title that "Best of the Best" means on field wins. I love trophies and banners too (and I read "Looking Forward" posts whenever I can), but perhaps we can have this conversation someday and it will list inspired graduates of a team, where they are going to school, what jobs they have, and how they are making their community and world a better place. In FIRST is there any other way to judge "best teams," really?

Re: Best of the Best
 

:cool: I agree the Best of the Best is the ones who keep challenging each other to make the world a better place.:cool:

The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want.-Psalms 23

Re: Best of the Best
 

Last year we had a rookie on Einstien, so it's not really out of the question that a 2000's team can be a powerhouse.

Re: Best of the Best
 

I don't really see what we have to go on for this thread other than listing the teams everyone knows well due to their past success that will likely lead them to future similar success.

Though I do wonder what elements of success used by veteran teams in other games will be applied to this one. Will 25 have their trademark drivetrain? Will 233 have a variant on their ubiquitous telescoping jointed arm? Will 1771 really suck? (As in air, like in 2008)

I think if there's a year for a 2000 level team to dominate, it's this one. I think the distribution of regional wins this year between the three "blocks" (0000 / 1000 / 2000) will be pretty much even.

Re: Best of the Best
 

I will say that our 2010 robot has very few completely "new" concepts on it. It is comprised almost entirely of variants of systems we've built and learned from since 2003.

That being said, some of the systems have had some pretty cool updates.

Re: Best of the Best
 

Hey. You calm down. He is trying to get pumped. It sounds like your talking to someone who has never been in a frc. You are a first year, you dont understand that the enviroment is like chuckie cheeses. There is a sense of competitivity but it is mostly people having fun with strangers and not being ashamed. The seriousness is only for the teams who are currently competeing and building. Loosen up and stop acting like we are trying to win a million dollars. We are not in it to win it. We are in it to get the experiance, have fun, and meet new people. The compitition is just extra. So get some team spirit and dont hold it back, and never tell someone else to "Tone it down alittle", especially if they are on your own team.

Re: Best of the Best
 

It's pretty funny that you brought these teams up, I was actually asking those questions to myself the other day.

In 25's case, I totally see them doing extremely well. I really would like to see them bring back a level of Dominance like they had in 2006.

And I really hope that 233's robot has some sort of telescoping arm on it... And I hope they bring the Pink back too.

Re: Best of the Best
 

I want them to bring pink back too...I'm hoping the lack of pink last year jinxed us ;) (I'm in college...so I don't know for sure whether the robot will be pink)

Re: Best of the Best
 

There is nothing wrong in believing in oneself because it be to be optimistic than be a pessimist and believe our team is going to lose.

Re: Best of the Best
 

At the risk of jutting in to what should probably be a private team discussion...

There's a difference between confidence and cockiness. Being satisfied and optimistic is acceptable and probably encouraged, while insisting your team is the best and will destroy the competition can come off as delusional or arrogant. There's a line, and while I don't mean to say that anyone's crossed it (no, seriously, I don't), it's something to consider when making comments in public spaces.

Be wary of the dangers of blind confidence as well. If you believe you are the best, you may miss opportunities for improvement.

On that note, 2791 is totally going to be better than every other robot for sure this year! ;)

Re: Best of the Best
 

Ummmm it better be PINK;)

Re: Best of the Best
 

...how bout a lil love for the 3000 teams? ;)

Re: Best of the Best
 

I'll be disappointed if 233 isn't Pink and MOE isn't Green

Re: Best of the Best
 

Every year there is always a team (however old or new the team is) that surprises everyone (for better or for worse)...

good luck teams! do your scouting!!!:D

Re: Best of the Best
 

Mostly, they're rookies. There have been standout rookies, to be sure--1902 was one win shy of making Einstein in 2006 and made it the next year; 2056 has yet to lose a regional they've entered; 2753 made Einstein after winning New Jersey in 2009. However, my guess is that most of the 3000 teams are going not going to be as good as the 2000s or the 1000s. Yet. (And this is coming from one of the Fantasy FIRST players who snapped up rookies quickly.)

Do your best, and maybe we'll see an all-rookie alliance on Einstein this year... That'll be a surprise.

Re: Best of the Best
 

2056 also won IRI 2007. Winning IRI in your rookie year is almost unheard of.

Re: Best of the Best
 

At the end of the season, it really doesn't matter who was great and who wasn't. All that matters is that everyone had fun, did their best, and learned something new. Having a poor season isn't always a bad thing anyways. In 2007 when I was on 145 we had a bad season, only had a rolling chassis and didn't get picked for eliminations (only the 2nd time that happened up till then). But looking back at our mistakes, such as poorly using build time, low team spirit, and settling on a design 5 times. We made a better robot (with about a week to play with, break, improve and fix), worked on team spirit, even tried to make a new team image with new shirts, got picked by the 1st seed alliance. No 145 did not win FLR in 2008, but everyone had a lot of fun.

Re: Best of the Best
 

Though to be completely fair, they made a modification that significantly increased their competitiveness at IRI. Not that it takes anything away from their accomplishment. I doubt that story will be repeated anytime soon. 2753's second overall selection at IRI got them close...

Re: Best of the Best
 

2865 is gonna dominate Portland Regional, I hope. :D
We got to Quarter Finals in Portland and Semi Finals in Seattle last year, as a rookie team.
:)

Re: Best of the Best
 

I personally I think that there could definitively be some stand out rookie teams. This year's game seems to be fairly simple and a simple robot design could do very well, while something very complicated could fail hilariously.

People are really going to need to watch out for rookie teams. The one I'd look out for is 3136, their robot is looking pretty strong and they got their kicker working the other day. They could act pretty well as a striker.

Side note: Talking about yourself in the third person is hard ;)

Re: Best of the Best
 

1114 is dominating Pittsburgh, 'course it is a smaller regional.. Not quite the domination they showed in 2008, but they have put on a clinic today! Be interesting to see how they handle defense in the eliminations...:ahh:

Re: Best of the Best
 

I'm undecided as to whether or not I think 1114 is as good or better at Breakaway than they were at FIRST Overdrive. Its certainly open for debate.

Re: Best of the Best
 

I definitely have to say that IFI has taken the field again this year...just...*more* than usual. 217 is unstoppable, and 148 is the same design. 1114 seems to be ever more lethal, and I'm sure with the level of collaboration that the IFI teams do, 254 and 2056 aren't any worse.

Re: Best of the Best
 

Yeah, when I saw 1114 come out and dominate the field like that yesterday, my first thought was "Aw crap, if they're this good on their own, I'm not sure I WANT to see them WITH 2056"

Re: Best of the Best
 

469 broke the game

Re: Best of the Best
 

Pretty much. I'm interested in seeing how well their strategy works when against an opponent like 217 instead of on an alliance with them. If the other alliance can clear balls it could make it much more interesting.

Re: Best of the Best
 

The problem is that the other team has two robots to shut down that one that might make a difference. So its pretty foolproof. Remember only one of the other team in the defending zone. The only way to stop them would be to Place a team right in their way in the begining and never move it.

Re: Best of the Best
 

My guess would not be not as well, cause while their system acts like an infinite loop (:P) teams can intercept the balls, and it requires scoring bots to feed the system.

But I would look for them to taken as a quick first pick if they are worlds.

Re: Best of the Best
 

The thing is, so far 217 and 469 are putting 5 balls into the goal/zone in autonomous and the other alliances aren't removing any. If the other alliance can even get some out during autonomous, it goes a long way to reducing the score of 469's alliance. Couple in a few more removed during teleop, and you give the other alliance a fighting chance.

Re: Best of the Best
 

469 just made every scout add a new line to their sheets,"Do you have a way to stop 469?"

Re: Best of the Best
 

With a good forward, I'm not sure much can be done to stop 469. The defender would have to be way better than the forward to even give the other alliance a chance. I think the best way to stop them nay just be to stop them from deploying with a fast auton. The problem I see is that whatever team seeds first will pick 469, and assuming the first seed is deserving of said position, that alliance will just dominate.

The funny thing about this in my opinion is that lots of people thought of this idea. I know a few people on my team did. But everyone said something like "That has to be illegal", then scoured the rulebooks but didn't find anything. But almost no one built it anyway. Credit to 469 for having the guts to do what everyone else didn't. It's paying off!

Re: Best of the Best
 

There are other teams who attempted various forms of ball deflectors. However, of all of them we've seen so far, 469 has the best way to deflect them towards the goal consistently and (easily) the best way to remain in position. Most teams who built deflectors simply tried to stay put using their drive trains, rather than wedging themselves into the tunnel. I know of a couple other teams who will try and give 469 a run for their money, but I'm not optimistic about their chances. 469 executed their design extremely well, and should be the cream of the crop in that class of robot.

We'll see how they do in Troy (and Michigan States) before crowning them kings, though. Their strategy is still very dependent on having one or two capable robots in front of them to help with the scoring and one or two behind them to help add balls to the "cycle" initially.

Re: Best of the Best
 

Can someone post pictures or provide a link to video on 469?

I missed the webcasts today and am curious about what 469 looks like.

Re: Best of the Best
 

Re: Best of the Best
 

I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that 469 is unstoppable.

First off, don't get me wrong, they have one heck of a robot, and their design is *genius*.

But, 469 by themselves, or even with a couple of pusher bots against a kicker with a good holding mechanism would get annoying. This point has been brought up before in that how would they face against 217. My thought is that even if 217 was with them, if another robot, say 1114, was playing against them, then I believe the game would be much different.

469 is great because paired with a powerful kicker, they are unstoppable. But by themselves, they just represent a really unique design.

Best Robot of 2010
 

Week 2's happened, so why not get the ball rolling. Who's the best robot and why?

Who's the best (insert robot archetype here) and why?

What robots are really underrated this year?

Just from what I've seen in person, 230's match domination begins to approach 217 levels. They have a similar rushing strategy, great autonomous, and good control.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

469 without a doubt. They absolutely dominate every match and it would shock me if they don't take the national championship. no robot even comes close and they have come up with the best dominating robot since 02

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

230 has some well polished code, and a reliable hanging mechanism, but they can be pushed around far too easily, I think, to be considered the best. However, their ability to shoot from any of the 3 zones will make them a good robot to ally with because they can score well when unobstructed.

Obviously, 469 comes to mind, but not only because of their ability to play "god bot", but also because they can be successful playing Breakaway by driving and kicking like other robots. They don't dominate at this like they do with the god bot strategy, but their ability to play both ways will make them versatile and useful.

1114's kicker is fast and consistent, as is their hanger. They also don't get pushed easily, and shoot well from the mid zone. They cross bumps very well too, and they could easily overload the home zone from the mid, and then cross over to help score.

217 has proven to be agile and fast when it comes to scoring, but this doesn't make them stand out, because many other teams are working toward their level of speed and consistency, especially in the home zone, where 217 likes to play (from what I've seen).


So as of now, my list is 217, 1114, 469, and 230.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

I am gona have to say 217. They have won two regionals now, and are all in all a great robot that can work with any team. That is something that 469 can not say.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

A lot of 230's damage is done before you can get to defending them. The three in auto, then they manage to swerve and kick one or two before you can slide them across the floor. 4-5 + 2 for hanging from one partner while they draw all the defense is not too shabby at all. They won't carry an alliance at the Championship, but they're a fairly flexible component of one.

Other bots worth a mention just from what I've seen in person would be 20, probably one of the best striker type robots with their swerve drive and ability to loft over defenders. Extend my comments to what you've seen on webcasts and you'd hear the same "1114, 217, 469" from me.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

Im going to give 67 The Hot Team a vote here. Great team ,great bot ,they really play this game well! Also 217,469,27,33,51,all powerful bots to be delt with. The Michigan state championships are going to be something special to watch!!!!!

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

359 has led two alliances to wins in the same fashion as 217. They may not be playing vs. the poofs this year but they are definitely one of the best in the west!

And then 469... what can I say... I am a huge fan of the god-bot :D

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

i would have to say 217, 148, 230 (but like chris said, they can be pushed around to easily. I pushed them with ease in WPI) and probably lastly 78. 469 doesn't come into my book

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

The IFI squad never fails to put out good machines, and this year, it seems like they're sweeping their competitions. (217, 148, 1114, 254, 2056)

469 + good kicker is definitely a really strong alliance, and the combination is beyond a doubt one of the strongest there are.

1771 has a powerful kicker and really good drivers. I think with a strong roller mech. they can dominate the field even more than they have been doing.

Re: Best of the Best
 

"Best" threads merged.

Re: Best of the Best
 

469 on its own isn't necessarily a dominating robot. That being said however, I see 469 having the best chance of winning the world championship this year due to the fact that they can take any alliance with a powerful offensive robot and turn it into a juggernaut.

217 has designed yet another highly competitive robot (and one cannot talk about 217 without talking about 148), but I wouldn't say they're the best robot out there until we see other teams compete (such as 254, 968, and 971) in the week 3 regionals. The same goes for 1114.

In my opinion, 230 isn't in the same realm as the teams I've mentioned above. They've got a very consistent robot that performs well in every match, but they don't have the scoring capability of 217, 1114, 148, 67, or 469. We also must consider the level of competition at each team's respective regional events, and I believe that WPI did not have as deep a field of competition as some of the other regional events.

Re: Best of the Best
 

Most of the reason I mentioned 230 is because I figured most of the thread would mention 217, 1114, 469 repeatedly and discussion of other bests would be nice as well. Also, it's one of the few candidates I've seen in person.

I could see 230 as a second selection in a division with an alliance that has a bump traversing member that needs autonomous assistance. 230's opening "rush" often seals the deal, as if you clear an opponent's zone enough to execute a 2 on 1, that's basically the match right there.

Re: Best of the Best
 

Team IFI can't claim any credit for 2056's machine this year.
Those guys worked independently this year without any help from Texas. I can't wait to see what they came up with.

-John

Re: Best of the Best
 

Not to worry John, you only have to wait until next weekend (Week 4), when they play in Waterloo.

If they're going to live up to their reputation, and them or 1114 seeds #1... look out 469+217, you might have a rival for peak score.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

148 and 217 actually almost cannot be pushed around once the treads are put down. You need a powerfull bot to do so. If you've watched a regional you can tell the tremendous difference once treads are deployed.

I cannot speak on 230, since I have not seen their bot, but I most say 469 is a killer bot.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

This is an understatement.
I mentioned to my driver after the second match during week 1, that he is like a running back and this is tackle football, NOT flag football.
The results have been great. :)

Re: Best of the Best
 

Team 2185 is coming with the BEAST...so look out Waterloo and the GTA.

Waterloo Champions 2009 with 2056 and 2609

GTA Champions 2009 with 2056 and 1114

Quarter-finalist in Atlanta 2009 (CURRIE FIELD)

wendells

Re: Best of the Best
 

Past success does not guarantee future success. Show us a video, or anything really, of why anyone should believe your robot is the "Best of the Best". Stop tooting your own team's horn. Sure I think my team's bot is great, but I'll leave that for everyone else to decide.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

I'm almost certain he was referring to 230 there, considering that was the only team at WPI and they have a standard mecanum drive.

Re: Best of the Best
 

There is also no need to post it, delete it and repeat it two more times. Isn't that against the rules of the forums?

Re: Best of the Best
 

If by best you mean best looking, than I think we're beating the heck out of everyone else :rolleyes:

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

I assumed since the person said "they" that they meant all three, but if they didn't i apologize. I know nothing about team 230. Well, now I know they have standard mecanum drive =)

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

We aligned with 230 at the elims and won at WPI. They had an auto where they started in the defensive zone and cleared all 3 balls to the offensive zone, often times scoring 1 or 2 of them and even all 3 a couple of times. Then they would go into the mid field via the bumps and clear balls into the offensive zone from there. It worked great with a good scoring bot in the offensive zone and we put up 8 or 9 points a few times. They also hung during the quals, but we were up by enough points that they decided to avoid hanging and the risks associated in the elims. However, they did have a very durable method of hanging and I really can't see them breaking like some of the other bots did when trying to hang. Extremely strong auto, good end game and a good teleop. And they did all of this w/o a possession method.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

yes i forgot to mention the robowranglers... but you are going to need a high traction robot to be able to push you guys and 148 around... 469 can easily be pushed around because of their mecanums

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

You sure about that?

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

Did they stay in the middle zone the whole time and allow the homezone robot to score?
And was 8-9 points about the average in elims?
Can they sweep balls into the goal efficiently?
(Sorry, just trying to gather some information).
I hear they are a very good bot, but have never seen them myself. Anyone have pictures?

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

if you have a robot that can get under the tunnel then you can just push them out

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

From what I've heard, they're wedged in. You're more likely to make holes in the carpet than get them out.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

They basically climbed over right away in teleop (probably will do it in auto for their next event imo) and then kicked the other 3 balls over. From there, they'd either play midfield or run a 2 on 1 offense. They weren't the best at either of these since they lacked possession, but their whole game is played around getting early ball advantage anyway. Basically if you lock up the opponent's zone so there are no balls there, you get 3 on 2 in the zones with balls and effectively control the game.

Part of their domination was due to the fact that no other alliance could do this at WPI. The 5th alliance (2791 195 1124) could grab 1 ball in auto and kick 2 into the midfield if everything lined up right, making the game a lot more contested, but they got knocked out by an alliance that was worse equipped to handle 230.

If you exclude Final 2, where 20 just stopped moving for some reason, yes.

Their kicker automatically fired which made it tricky, but they scored very effectively in every zone.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

When they were teamed up with us, they stayed in the middle the entire time b/c we were able to score past anyone else there and when we scored, there was a steady amount of balls in the midfield from the ball return to keep them busy. When they were with other teams who struggled to score, they would clear defensive zone, move up, clear mid field, move up, score balls on offense, then either go back to the midfield to try to score or start to get ready for the hang, whichever time and score necessitated.

To answer the question about our bot breaking down, the power cable to our camera came loose when we got bumped. We're fixing it though, making it hard-wired since we realized it was pretty loose. Good thing we caught it before it happened in Atlanta.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

Alright, thanks a lot.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

how does this fit in the rules... can someone direct me in the rule book where it says that a team can latch onto a field element

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

There's no rule prohibiting it.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

really... i would think that with all the strict ruling this year, something like that would be prohibited

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

(emphasis mine)

Re: Best of the Best
 

Of course this suggestion is mostly a product of an over-active sense of patriotism, but 188 didn't look too shabby at Finger Lakes... even when stacked against 217.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

yes... but that is in the finale... not regular teleoperated

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

thank you for pointing this out to me...

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

Actually, a robot can hang at any time during the match. (If it is touching its tower, it can actually expand to finale configuration any time during the match.)

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

yeah... ijust read that section of the rules... thanks for all the answers guys

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

I am on 230 and I have to say that this is pretty accurate. I spent a lot of time looking at results around the country (thus far) and a 4 point match will win 75% of all matchups. In fact of the 42 matches day 1 matches at WPI, only 11 had scrores of 5Pts or More. We were in 4 of those, another two teams were in 3 and the rest were spiratic. Of those 5+ point matches, 9 would have still one with only a 4 pt Game and 2 would have tied... thats if the winning alliance only scored 4 that match. So 469 has had some impressive scores in the 20's but that is not the norm. Our High is 11. That is closer to the average regional high score.

I agree we can be pushed, but that was a sacrifice we decided on for mobility. But if we can still win 75% of the matches in the country before our partners score, than thats pretty good and our partners just add to that. Ofcourse there are those high scoring matches to look out for!

I think the only way to beat a 469 is to not let the alliance score in the first place. If the balls dont go in the goal, they cant return them. So you need to clear the zone and keep their partners from scroing.

If you are from 469... my hats off to you for thinking out of the box. Awesome job.

I think there are several good sweepers out there, most of them just plow the balls in. We just feed them and if they are tied up with a defender we score our selves on the other goal from any of the zones. 20 did a great job because that have a great ball handler.

Others have mentioned this too, I dont know why they allow teams to push more than one ball in at a time, I saw several doing it (217 , 2370, 3280 to name a few - my appologies if I remember the team numbers wrong) I thought that was a penalty! Not saying I like the rule, but I was pretty sure we werent allowed to score that way. OR was this changed in a Team Update?

Any how, good luck to you all in remaining regionals.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

You cannot possess more than one ball at a time. You can herd as many as you can jam in front of your robot (or on the side or behind for that matter). It has been this way since the beginning, but this Q&A confirms it:

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=15072

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

If the robots never posses the balls, they are allowed to manipulate more than one. Say, only one manipulated by a roller or vacuum to stay with the bot, but as many as needed can be "herded" by the bot

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

Just an FYI, we have a kicker that can fire Manually or Automatically. The automode is good because the timing of the sensor and when the ball need to be kicked is right on. But the Opperator and release the auto button and fire manually if we want to time the firing based on a partner or opponents position. SO... we can line up and score either way. We also use a camera and provide visual feedback to the computer as extra assurance we are in line with the target.

Re: Best Robot of 2010
 

OK, thanks... that was one of those rules that was odd in the beginning- then they hoped the definition of "Possession" and "Carrying" would clear it up, but the initial impression was already etched in my brain!