Withholding limits and GP
 

Lets use an example robot,

Naked (no battery or bumpers) it weights 39 lbs. Could the team ship just the bumpers? and keep the robot under the withholding allowance?

Do you feel that this is un-GP?

- Bochek

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

This is allowed, however it is close to impossible to develop a successful robot that weighs <40 pounds including all mechanisms.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

If you actually accomplished this, I'd be so impressed! I don't think there are any GP issues at stake here.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Really? REALLY???

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

our bot currently sits at 60lbs with battery and bumpers, so its gonna be mighty close, might ship the bumpers and the lexan covers? mabie the digital side car and signal light? perhaps even the digital module from the crio.

i think that would be enough

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

The Withholding Allowance allows you to withhold fabricated parts, not the Robot. It seems like only a partially disassembled robot would fit under the withholding allowance.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

C'mon guys.....

The intent is you will ship a robot on the ship date AND you are allowed to have a limited supply of spare parts AND you are hands off on your bot on the ship date.

If you want to 'lawyer' the rules go ahead but IMHO it wouldn't be in the spirit of things.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I agree. I wasn't trying to lawyer the rules. The Withholding allowance shouldn't be used to withhold a robot.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

ROBOT - A FRC ROBOT is a remotely operated vehicle designed and built by a FRC team to perform specific tasks when competing in the 2010 competition “Breakaway.” The ROBOT must include all the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game – power, communications, control, mobility, and actuation. The ROBOT implementation must obviously follow a design approach intended to play the 2010 FRC game (e.g. a box of unassembled parts placed on the FIELD, or a ROBOT designed to play a different game, would not satisfy this definition).

We have to ship a "robot" and the definition of a robot is above. Hope that helps.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Chris,

With all due respect, the withholding allowance, by design, invalidates requirement to ship a "robot" by this definition.

From the blue box of <R27>:

By defiition, without a control system, you have no robot. But the intent of <R27> is to withhold the control system.

Here lies the rub...

For a very light robot design, the "selected relevant subsystems" can be all of them.

Going back to the origins of this thread, it is clear to me that shipping the bumpers only is legal if the remaining system, sans battery, is less than 40 pounds.

The question is if the sacrifice of a massive robot is offset by additional development time...

A most interesting trade off study...

JMHO,

Mike

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Mike,

Just a friendly reminder, the blue boxes are not part of the rules and can be wrong. According to the rules, they are there to explain the intent behind the rules. In general, they are a rule of thumb, not a rule.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I disagree. I don't think an entire robot should fall under a Fabricated part. But really only the First Q&A should be the final decider.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

As I see it, the question is simple: Can a reasonably complete robot go into the withholding allowance?

Let's discuss this from the rules.

First, what is the withholding allowance?
"Limited amount withheld from the robot" implies--note that it doesn't specifically say one way or the other--that you can't hold back your entire robot.

What is supposed to be shipped at the end of the build season?
OK, so the entire robot must be crated or bagged, along with everything else, unless it's in the allowance.

Next up, the rules on what you can do with the stuff in the allowance. Pretty much fair game.

Aha! Here we have the definition of what exactly constitutes the allowance. Note that it includes 40 lbs of custom fabricated items from all categories.

Note that nowhere does any rule explicitely say, "Thou shalt not keep your entire robot as your withholding allowance." However, the rules certainly imply that you cannot keep your entire robot as withholding, even if it is under 40 lbs.

What I am going to say is this memorable quote from a Q&A back in 2008 in response to a very...err..."inventive" team: "That would be a violation of the spirit, but not necessarily the letter, of the rules." (Also note that someone figured out a way to bring a complete second robot to an event a few years back, and nobody's done it yet to my knowledge...)

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

In the end, only Q&A can answer the question as to whether it meets the rules.

In the end, only YOU can decide whether you feel good about the decisions you made and whether or not they were in the spirit of the rules.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

And, because it's relevant to this thread, does anyone know Speed Racer's weight? IIRC, Fezzik was 80-something lbs, so if you shipped the bumpers, and you're control board was just the joysticks on a piece of paper, you could probably get a robot and controls in in under 40 lbs.

($5 says that if/when submitted to the Q&A this approach will be deemed against the rules.) :cool:

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

The Operator Console is exempt from the 40 lbs per <R38-A> (posted above).

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I'd actually bet that it'll be noticed and fixed in an update. Just sayin'.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

If your robot is under 40 pounds, not only CAN you keep it... but you DESERVE to keep it! I don't think we've ever built anything that came out under 110 pounds, let alone under 40!

The withholding limit is one of the rules, and it is not poor sportsmanship, or disrespectful to your fellow competitors to follow the rules.

And if you show up with a 40 pound robot, I don't care how good your drivers are, or how great your code is... you'll get pushed all over the place. As much as I enjoy taking rules to their logical conclusion, I think there are practical limits that make the "40 pound robot" scenario unlikely.

But PLEASE do USE the withholding allowance... it is a great way to make your robot better!

Jason

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I believe that it was under 40 lbs when I saw it at the regional.

I agree with icurtis that it will be deemed not legal. Holding back a robot would technically be a second robot which by the GDC's response in eric's post is against the intent of FIRST. I would suggest an identical practice robot.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I can't even believe this discussion is taking place. When someone asks you about FRC and how it works, do you not answer this way...
"On the first full weekend in January, every team in the world is given the game, a Kit of Parts and a set of rules. Every team then has six weeks and three days to design, build and test a robot at which point every team has to pack the robot into a shipping container and ship it to a warehouse. The next time the team sees their robot, will be their first event."
Modify as you need for bag and tag.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

you'd have to catch us first.


Weighed the robot today, came in at 50lbs sans battery + bumpers, only gotta shave 10 lbs.

I have posted the question on the first Q+A

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

IMHO I agree with others that while this may not be deemed 'illegal' it certainly violates the principals and spirit of FIRST and the other teams that adhere to the 6 week rule. Speaking for our team we hold to the rules and keep only the control system etc as explicitly defined in the manual and use test systems for tweaking code. When we head for our regional we take only spare parts to repair and tools. We do not continue fabricating parts etc. Perhaps this is a disadvantage to our team that we do not do this however when we tell people six weeks we mean six weeks...once it's in the crate it's done until we get to Lone Star...so my answer would be that yes it violates the GP spirit of FIRST.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

If anybody seriously wants MORE work after six weeks exhaustion, let them have it. I'll be taking a nap. :)

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I have two points to make:

1) If I saw a team, show up with an empty crate, and bring in their robot I would think they cheated and worked on the bot all the way up to the first regional. I wouldn't trust them.

2) If you bring in a 40 pound robot, as a fabricated part, I hope you don't break anything because you won't have any extra fabricated/spare parts.

*gets off soapbox*

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I am hopeing the GDC finds it legal. but even if they do we will still ship SOME of our bot (need room to make some spare parts!)

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Too Late! You are on the LRI top list now. Kidding of course. We don't keep a list.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Looks like the witholding allowance will be raised to 65lbs this year according to bill's blog.

Still no response from the GDC, how long does it usually take them to respond? I can barley wait for their answer.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

They shipped those in the crate.... :D

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Did the GDC just up the Withholding Limit?

Sorry if it was discussed before. I couldn't find it within this thread.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

waiting for the team update to come out in the next few days, but FRC Director posted on his blog explaining that due to weather causing a loss of build days to some teams the witholding limit will be raised to 65lbs.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

YEP!!!!:yikes: It is now 65Lb to help the teams that lost build time.

I feel a little bad getting this extra time when I live in Summerville, SC

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

That seems a fair way to handle the situation and level the field. Of course, we meet through wind and snow and hail and dark of night.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Did it really level the field or just give everyone an advantage?

I guess, if I missed a week and didn't have a lifter, I could now build a lifter. But, for a team that didn't miss anytime they can now further test and perfect their lifter. In this sense, it levels the field a bit.

If it results all around better, more polished robots, then I'm all for it.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

does anyone know how long it usualy takes the GDC to respond? I haven't heard back after posting the question on Friday. yet i see some responces to questions asked today.

- Bochek

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Questions with less obvious answers take more time to be discussed and ruled on.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

It probably depends how straightforward it is, and whether or not they think it needs to be addressed in an update. If it's something in the Manual or an Update, whoever gets to it first could answer easily. If it's a complex question, or the Manual isn't clear, and they need to discuss, it could take a while. If there's an Update due out within a day or so, it's quite possible that they hold back until the Update comes out and address it then.

This question would not be straightforward.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

still no reply from the GDC, even after team update 11, il give it one more day before i start to dig into why no response.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Adam,
The GDC is spread across the country and so they can only discuss answers at certain times. The team update, I am sure, takes precedent. Be patient, they may be doing a little research. It's an important question.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

You mean this question?




.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Go GDC! Yes! Good call.

Okay, I know the GDC doesn't really need a cheering section, but I've once or twice (in seven years) spoken up when I didn't like an interpretation or ruling, so it's only fair to speak up with the ones I really like, too.

I think the witholding limit is one of the best "new rules" I've seen introduced into FRC. We realized the significance of it last year, and built two twelve pound drive modules and one fifteen pound control board. They could be easily bolted or unbolted from the robot. We kept them behind, strapped them on a plywood "dummy chassis" and did all our traction control work at spring break.

This year we've put all our electronics and pneumatic valves into a 20 pound control box, and built two complete chassis. One chassis will ship, along with the bumpers, weighing in at about 75-80 pounds. The control board, and backup chassis will stay behind, so we can practice driving, refine our software and still have 20 pounds to build a lift or some other mechanism as we watch and learn. If we build it right, it should be about 30 minutes of work in Seattle to upgrade the "competition" chassis and install the refined components. After the season ends, we'll probably retrofit each robot with an old IFI control system so we can play soccer matches at school.

This not only makes our robot better, but should reduce shipping costs and carbon emissions involved in shipping the robot. Win, win, WIN!

Jason

P.S. I know we can now bring the 20 pound control box plus an additional 45 pounds of stuff (20+45=65 pounds), but our plan has been to work within the 40 pound witholding limit all along, and we haven't been affected by snow (as anyone watching the "Winter" Olympics will know) and shouldn't need to take advantage of the increased limits.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

65 pounds is the new 120.

That's all I wanna say :D

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

GO GDC!!! another 5 weeks of build season!

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Dave, what are you doing up at nearly 1am? and the GDC posting responses at almost 11PM. You'r all hardcore about this eh?

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Time zones?

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Same as yours.

Don't you know - the GDC never sleeps.



-dave



.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Why do I suspect that Waterloo will be weighing all incoming parts?

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I know Tristan was the Head Inspector there last year, and he frequents these forums... perhaps he'll give an indication of that, and no doubt he'll be watching 2200 especially.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

An interesting thread, and on that is open to many interpretations. Imho, I think that when these things are done perhaps a more in depth look at the existing rules or a revision that is a bit more explicit would be very helpful. I think its safe to say there are enough areas where the rules can be interpreted in more than one way and no doubt some cases where they may actually conflict, or at least seem to. Again, its all in the interpretation. Thankfully I come from an aerospace and aviation background where the FAA and only the FAA can issue, interpret and make decisions based on their rules and how everyone else interprets them. Makes me think of their motto, " We're not happy until you're not happy"

Anyway, all I know is I would give real cash to be able to hold back the Crio and be able to do more programming, whether thats against the GP or whether its a cheat is wide open but Ill just be honest about it. Come next Tuesday, Ill make the decision then.

Good luck everyone....remember, sleep is an option!

Mike

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

This is not only not against GP, and not a cheat, its EXPLICITLY allowed by the rules.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Well thats the best thing Ive heard all day, and I may actually sleep better tonight.....cept for the dreams where all those little VI's gang up on me and beat me.

Mike

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Bear in mind, though, that connecting all the little PWM connectors to the right ports can be fiddly and isnt necessarily the thing you want to be frantically doing on thursday morning at your regional.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

According to Richard Yasui the FIRST Robotics Administrator for TDSB, he made a call to FIRST who said that the robot must be shipped. I am totally confused now. Yes there is a 65 lb withholding of fabricated parts but the rules state

"<R26> During the Build Season: During the period between the Kick-off and the ROBOT shipment deadline, teams are to design and fabricate all the COMPONENTS and MECHANISMS required to complete their ROBOT. They are encouraged to use all the materials, sources and resources available to them that are in compliance with the rules of the 2010 FRC. There is no limit to the amount of time that may be put into this effort, other than via the realities of the calendar. When the ROBOT shipment deadline arrives, all work on the ROBOT must cease and the ROBOT must be placed in a “hands-off” condition. The entire ROBOT (including all FABRICATED ITEMS intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the ROBOT) must be crated or bagged (as appropriate for your event), and out of team hands by the shipment deadline specified in Section 4 (with the exception of the items covered by the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE).

The red is my highlight. If all work on the robot must cease then how can one withold the whole robot?

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

The last line of <R26> is the important part. It says "With the exception of the items covered by the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE" The robot is cover in the withholding allowance as outlined in this post. The game design committee stated that "There are no requirements on what is included or excluded from the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. Please see Team Update 11 for added clarification." Remember that the GDC rules are the only rules that apply.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Sean,

I do not disagree with your conclusion. I wanted to point out that the Game Manual is all that applies unconditionally. The updates and Q&A, if they change the manual are always reflected in the manual in it's next revision.

At least, that's the theory.

Regards,

Mike

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

It seems like people DON'T want to be able to continue to work on their robots, judging by some of their posts.
Are they crazy!!!!!:ahh:

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

No. 6 weeks is long enough to be crazy. Some of us happen to like our sanity whenever we aren't building robots.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I just recieved an email from our team's Main contact.

He quotes an email he claims he received from FIRST

Has any other team recieved this email? i could not find it on the FIRST site or in any team email blast or team update. It is also in direct conflict to the GDC responses.

- Bochek

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I agree. This sounds very wrong.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

We received the same email from our Regional Director, at 2:12 PM.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Thank you Karthik! Do you feel that this is something i should be brining up to the GDC?

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

But also note that this doesn't means teams don't like improving or even drastically changing their design throughout the season. Just think of all the teams who changed their shooters to dumpers last season.

We're not spending really late nights in the shop after we ship, but we will be making several different types of kickers and other endeffectors to test out in Trenton.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Your Regional Director is wrong. See this Q&A, which addresses this topic. If there is still any question, please post this to the Official Q&A immediately so that this can be addressed officially, and the mistaken information from the RD can be corrected.

-dave



.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I am on it

Edit: Done!

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

The "exception" at the end is an exception for all of <R26>.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I think that FIRST, of which the GDC is part of, should release a clarification of the rules as they are not all on the same page.

As stated on other occasions by FIRST, the rules are the rules. The Q&As are not the final say. The director that forwarded the email was sent an official (an email from FIRST) document saying that the robot must be shipped. Unless the rules are changed I still believe that the original stated rules should be followed.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

My understanding is that the purpose of the Q&As are to clarify the rules or any changes to the rules (like upping the limit to 65 lbs) and thus represent a "final say" with regards to the interpretation of the rules.

...now I'm really confused:confused:

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

The rules say to ship the robot, sans a withholding allowance of up to 65 lbs of fabricated items.

Q&A says that anything you like can go in that withholding allowance.

The good folks at FRC HQ say that you have to ship the robot.

Q&A is for interpretation of the rules--their interpretation, and therefore the current official interpretation, is that you can hold back anything you like.

I think we need to bring this up to the attention of Q&A, and find out what's really supposed to happen.

"Hypothetical situation: A team builds its robot such that it weighs 60 lbs without the battery or bumpers. They choose to withhold the entire robot and ship the bumpers in the crate. FRC HQ has passed down a message that this is illegal, but this Q&A [link to the appropriate one] implies that this is fine. Which interpretation is correct?"

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

whoops... sorry... accidently deleted message...

all I posted is that the original question asked if "the robot" could be in the withholding allowance and the response was that "There are no requirements on what is included or excluded from the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE." implying that the robot can be withheld.

I see now you your question isn't about the robot per se but the conflicting messages. I agree... I'll ask the question.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

question has been asked....

Withholding Allowance Restrictions
 

Is the Drive Train included in the 65 pounds maximum weight we can bring??

Re: Help on Drive Train
 

You can bring in whatever you want for fabricated items (including mechanisms), so as long as your drivetrain and anything else you bring are under 65lbs, you can withhold it. But be VERY careful, all your electronics and everything "assembled" or "fabricated" counts!

See here:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14653
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...pdate%2011.pdf
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ht=withholding

Re: Help on Drive Train
 

Kim has given you a good list of reading material on this topic. Here's one that was just published a few minutes ago.

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2010...and-early.html

Re: Help on Drive Train
 

ok thanks we thought that it would count just wanted to make sure though lol

Re: Help on Drive Train
 

I guess it's a bit off topic but there's no thread on the BB post.

I'm a little dissapointed that teams were told they could withold their entire robots, then they were told they couldn't, then they were told that someone was misinformed, and then a week after the issue was cleared up by the Q&A it's being turned around and invalidated again. That could screw up several teams planning on witholding their whole robot.

Re: Help on Drive Train
 

Now I am completely lost... that was clear as mud...
.

I dont get it, is he saying that if your robot is just a drivetrain that weighs under 65lbs you cannot withhold it???

By the definition of Fabricated Item:
A drivetrain is a fabricated mechanism... so wouldnt it count?!?!

My head hurts...

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Moderators Note: I've merged a few threads to keep all the pertinent posts and discussion on this topic in one spot.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Okay so now that bills blog is saying we CAN NOT bring a fully assembled robot (weighing less then 65lbs)

but the GDC said there where no restrictions to what we held back.

IM GOING TO LOOSE HAIR OVER THIS ONE!!!! ARH! - sorry had to get that out.

A robot, is required to have bumpers no? so if we ship the bumpers then we don't have a fully assembled robot right?

we are bagging and tagging tomorow, and we have been planing on keeping the whole robot (minus the bumpers) ever since the 65lb weight increase.

GDC has not responded to the Q+A i posted about our regional directors email, nor to another mentors question on the same subject.

Sorry i really needed to vent. Comments?

New bills blog post RE: withholding allowance
 

Alright, this has got me all fired up, so please cool me off here.

please read the following from bills blog:


So under the withholding allowance, teams are only allowed to bring FABRICATED PARTS to the competition. So lets say i was working on component X, component X used a CIM motor, do i have to ship the CIM motor and not have one to test component X with?

Secondly. Reading the GDC's post here: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14653

There are no restrictions on what can and cannot be shipped when asked directly about keeping the entire robot. Is the GDC going back on their decision?

- Bochek

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I'm disappointed with all the different opinions we are getting from a variety of people at first weather it be Bills blog, the GDC or our regional director there is really no clear option on to bag or not to bag. Ever since the 65 pound withholding limit and this post by the GDC all our decisions have been based on "we have five more weeks", in fact we are not working on our robot the day before ship day because of the snow, but we could have worked if we knew that we only had one day left. In conclusion i don't mind that we have to bag it, i do care though that we are learning about this the day before ship/bag day after being told its OK, Its a little too late to change.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Well... now it amounts to what consists of a "fully assembled robot" just to confuse the discussion further... ie... if a withholding allowance package is weighed in which consists of the sum parts of a partially disassembled robot, (as well as not including the bumpers which are bagged)...ie not a "fully assembled robot"... but one that can be assembled from the parts and is under the acceptable limit... egads! I thought the question was very politely and respectfully asked clearly indicating our intentions as we hold the concept of GP sacred. It's unfortunate we didn't get a simple "NO you can't do that" or a clearer guideline of what was acceptable in terms of the modified withholding limit. Now, in the 12th hour, it would seem to be an interpretation of the phrase "fully assembled ROBOT" and potentially risking an entire season on that interpretation as clearly there will not be any more time for further clarification.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

new GDC reply

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14773


I'm going to quote some definitions here.

WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE – A limited amount of FABRICATED ITEMS that are withheld from the ROBOT shipping requirements (specified in Section 4) and retained by the team following the shipping deadlines.

FABRICATED ITEM – Any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast, constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, surface coated, or conjured partially or completely into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT.

COMPONENT – A ROBOT part in its most basic configuration, which can not be disassembled without damaging or destroying the part, or altering its fundamental function.



What does it mean to conjure an item into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT? If you assemble some COTS parts to a fabricated part, is the assembly a FABRICATED ITEM now?

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

my last question to the GDC (this year), i swear!


WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE – A limited amount of FABRICATED ITEMS that are withheld from the ROBOT shipping requirements (specified in Section 4) and retained by the team following the shipping deadlines.

FABRICATED ITEM – Any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast, constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, surface coated, or conjured partially or completely into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT.

COMPONENT – A ROBOT part in its most basic configuration, which can not be disassembled without damaging or destroying the part, or altering its fundamental function.

MECHANISM – A COTS or custom assembly of COMPONENTS that provide specific functionality on the ROBOT. A MECHANISM can be disassembled (and then reassembled) into individual COMPONENTS without damage to the parts.


What does it mean to conjure an item into the final form in which it will be used on the ROBOT? If you assemble some COTS parts to and some FABRICATED ITEMS, is the "assembly" a FABRICATED ITEM now or is it a MECHANISM? Would this be a legal item to bring under the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I'm getting the feeling we are going to either see a bunch of disqualified teams, or a bunch of "boxes of parts" on the field. This is complete insanity. Normally I don't really get frustrated with the GDC but this is just terrible, I wish they would explain their reasoning instead of changing everything 20 times and parroting back things that we have already read. :mad: :ahh: :mad: :ahh:

Penfield has a bunch of robot crates that have been sitting there since Sunday afternoon, thank goodness all those teams decided to SHIP their robots... had they followed the rules that were in place on Sunday they might have been in trouble!!

Im now thinking that after we ship they will tell us that we arent allowed to bring mechanisms, even though mechanisms are fabricated items... we will have to disassemble and reassemble them at the regional... anyone smell battery cables????

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Thank you for seeing things from my, and my teams, point of view. Knowledge that we're not crazy is helpful.

You might also find this post helpful:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14797

I would just like to add, that tomorrow, we will not be shipping/bagging a robot. but instead a few parts. We believe that the GDC is not quite sure how to rule on this, so take our chances we will. We will see what they say in week 4.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Personally, I wouldn't take the chance on wasting 6...I mean 10... weeks I spent building a robot on whether or not FIRST understands and would enforce their rule. But, its your time, not mine.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Hold on there guys. The change to 65 pounds of withholding was announced in the Team update dated February 16. That is less than ten days ago. The GDC answers in the Q&A were dated the 16th and the 19th. It was the answers from the 19th that you are upset about and according to my watch that was a mere 5 days ago if you include the 19th. You can't make me believe you were planning to keep your robot and ship some parts based on something you knew in your heart wasn't the norm. Considering it occurred just a few days ago as opposed to kickoff, this should not affect your plans or your robot construction. 65 pounds is a lot of stuff to be able to bring with you. That alone is a gift for teams that have been able to work on their robot continuously during the build season and to help teams that have been locked out of their shops due to weather and school closings. Of all the things that have changed over the years, ship date has meant ship your ROBOT. Quite frankly I am going to view the majority of this thread as end of build exhaustion and nothing more. Get some sleep.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

It was clear from the start that you had to ship a robot:
Section 8.2 defines ROBOT:
The withholding allowance permits a team to not ship parts of their robot. But nowhere does it say you can retain the whole robot:
People are basing their opinion of withholding the whole robot on this Q&A: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14653 Answers on 2/16 and 2/19. The problem is the GDC never completely answered the first question, "Could the team ship just the bumpers? and keep the robot under the withholding allowance?" Instead, their answer was that teams could decide which parts of the robot they chose to withhold. I believe this is an unfortunate case of the GDC knowing what they wanted to say, but not saying it clearly. Edit: My initial reaction was, "Oh, 'any parts' means it could be the whole robot." But that's not what the GDC had in mind, and Bill's blog reporting on Update 13 corrects that misunderstanding.

As I understand it, you have to ship a robot, but you don't have to ship a whole robot. What parts of the robot you choose not to ship are up to you. But you can't bring a complete robot into the event with you. What you bring with you must be missing at least one of the parts listed in the ROBOT definition.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Because of the really bad weather Bill and the GDC try to help teams out by throwing them a bone and as a result this $%#& storm erupts.

I hope you folks don't expect them to be so magnanimous in the future.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

So if a team brings a 64lb. robot without its wireless gaming adapter (thus missing the communication aspect that defines a ROBOT), they would be legal? It seems like it's easy enough for these teams to do basically what they want while satisfying the rules, so what's the problem?

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Exactly what we are doing, a robot isnt a Robot Untill it has the bumpers, digital sidecar and Signal Light installed.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

If you wonder why people like myself get fed up and leave it is because certain people, you know who you are, continually try and find ways to beat the system. Breaking the rules, and the spirit of the rules, seems to be an OK thing to do. NOT!!!

FIRST tries to help out teams that do not normally have the issues with weather that many of us are used to. Others then try to take the advantage that they are given and expand it even further. The rules state that you must ship your robot. Period. you are allowed to withhold 65 lbs of fabricated parts. Period. The first rule that you must ship your robot is still in effect. Basically a robot has a frame, wheels/tread, motors to drive. As you are allowed to keep your CRio then that would be a base robot. Anything less and, in my opinion, is not shipping a robot.

'nuff said.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I really don't see why people are angry that teams want to use the witholding allowance FIRST gave them. It's not like they went "BUT BUT YOU CAN HOLD BACK 65 POUNDS" and showed up at a regional with an empty crate and expected to make it through. These guys did not lawyer the rules! They did the right thing. They saw the new rule, thought "oh, maybe it means we can do this", then asked the GDC if that was okay and got an all clear.

You're honestly mad at teams for using the Q&A to figure out if something was legal, then being told it was and planning accordingly?

They have every right to be extremely upset with whatever complete 180 FIRST is doing. I mean, obviously they were "only" planning on it for a week, but they still planned around it. And now there's not enough time to ask how much they have to ship to consider "the robot" shipped.

FYI: What's in 2791's crate is not enough to operate on field as is, just like last year which was completely legal then. Did we not ship a ROBOT then, since we held back our electronics board? Who's to say, with an update that appeared the day of ship, after we sealed our crate?

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Hi folks,

Let's tone this down a bit.

As pointed out above, the teams that saw an opportunity to withold a lightweight robot and possibly do so within the rules, asked for clarification in the Q&A, just as they were supposed to.

The question that was asked was very clear. The answer, unfortunately, was not. Based on the "what goes in the witholding allowance is up to you" answer, I honestly thought that it was okay to bring a lightweight robot to the competition with you... and I thought it was a really good answer.

So I have empathy for the teams who honestly believed that this was the intent of the answer. I know I did! The tradeoff of a light weight robot for increased build time struck me as a fair and reasonable engineering decision for a team to make.

I also have empathy for FIRST and the GDC, who attempt to answer questions quickly, and in the best interests of all involved with FIRST. Looking back, I am sure they wish they had included the "but you must ship a robot" clarification with the first Q&A response on the topic.

While it appears to me that FIRST has, in deed, if not in word, reversed the Feb. 16 Q&A response, I can also see how... from another persepective... their answers are logically consistant, even if the inital answer was somewhat ambiguous.

What is doubly unfortunate is that this issue revolves around the witholding limit, which is a great rule, and the increase in the witholding limit to compensate for the many teams that lost time to snow during build season. Making it triply unfortunate, of course, is the timing.

I hope that teams affected by this ruling are able to ship some significant part of their robot, then rebuild a duplicate of the shipped parts so that they can continue to make their robot better while complying with the rules of the game.

Jason

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I agree with everything you said besides this. The problem is that the change happened after most teams already designed and built most of their robot. If at the beggining of the year the 'if you robot is under 65 pounds, you don't have to ship it' rule was in the rule book, I would have been fine with it. But, since it came so late teams that decided to build a light robot (for completely different reasons) got the huge advantage of keeping their entire robots for extra weeks.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Sorry... I should have specified that at the time the question was asked, the question was based on a 40 pound robot. The 40 pound witholding limit was in place at the start of the build season, and teams could have planned on keeping 40 pounds of fabricated mechanisms and components, in total comprising their robot, as their witholding limit.

I can see how the increase in the witholding limit changes the cost/benefit ratio of building a lightweight robot, and am not quite as enthusiastic about allowing teams to withold a 65 pound robot as I am allowing them to withold a 40 pound robot, but would still support the concept... but can also appreciate why others might not.

I think the good thing is that we now have a clear precedent for future years, and teams will be aware that the rule requiring them to ship a robot supersedes the rule allowing them to withold a certain mass of components and mechanisms.

Of course... rules do change from year to year.

Jason

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Everyone just needs to calm down, let your blood pressure settle, and think for a minute. Kim and Adam - take a dang chill pill and stop whining. Read Team Update #13. Nobody is trying to crap in anyone's Wheaties. Everybody gets what they want. All that anyone at FIRST was trying to do was be as accommodating as possible within the overly-constrained set of realities they have to deal with. You happy now?


-dave



.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

No good deed goes unpunished.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

Dave, thanks for announcing that the update was out. And, thanks to the GDC for explaining what their reasoning was and clearing up the confusion that has been running wild over the last weekend.

I'm a little surprised that this hasn't come up in previous years. Then I remembered that the robots this year are exceptionally short by comparison, and thus many of them are lighter, leading to the questions about "can we simply withhold the robot?" The solution for next year is obvious: make a game where heavy robots have an advantage...

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

I think Al's advice to get some rest is sound. As is Jason's to tone it down. Let at least a couple of days go by and relax a bit. The build season is stressful and the end of build season is really stressful. Throw a bunch of snow days in and its worse.

To me it seems obvious that there was some confusion among members of the GDC as to what the changed rules meant in terms of having to ship your robot or not. The initial response to the question about withholding an entire 40 pound robot clearly indicated that at least someone on the GDC thought bringing your whole robot was OK.
Question:
Answer:
The question asked was very direct, and given the answer it was entirely reasonable for teams to assume that withholding their entire robot was OK as long as it did not exceed the weight limit. It may be that the initial responder did not closely read the initial question, that the GDC changed their minds, or that the initial responder was overruled by the majority.(EDIT: ... or that other issues prevented a completely clear answer and they were being as clear as the law allows...) I am confident that no one on the GDC was trying to intentionally frustrate or disadvantage any of the teams.

I don't think it is at all fair to assume/assert that teams or individuals were trying to gain an unfair advantage. It's not like they were trying to slap a ball into the goal with their hands in a World Cup qualifying match. (I know, cheap shot at Thierry Henry...) It was an honestly asked question. How often do we preach on Chief Delphi not to assume the meaning of a rule just because it was that way in the past?

But even if you were planning to bring a less than 65 pounds robot fully assembled this is not the end of the world. If you were planning to keep back the whole robot, you can disassemble your robot and put it back together on Thursday morning. More than one team under the old rules has come to a competition with a bunch of aluminum, some gear boxes, chain and wheels and built their robot from scratch. The most important thing I would tell you is have a <u>plan</u> if you opt for this course of action. Once your robot is working the way it is supposed to, disassemble the major systems. Make a plan for how you will reassemble it. You might even practice reassembling it before you get to competition (if you are not one of the week one regional teams). When we have had to perform one of our "catastrophic redesigns" we plan everything out in advance so that when we actually start working the workflow is as fast as possible.

Re: Withholding limits and GP
 

THIS has to be one of the all-time best quotes I have ever seen on CD.

thanks Dave... you brightened up my day....seriously... well not seriously ...
errr you know what i mean...

Fantastic quote...

I want the t-shirt