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-   -   Gas Shock Legality? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82492)

Bill Taylor 12-02-2010 15:04
Gas Shock Legality?
 
In the manual, <R72-I>, seems to allow for the use of gas shocks so long as they are safe. This implies that they are legal for this game. But, <R01> restricts the methods of stored energy and does not mention gas shocks specifically. Our strategy depends on compressing gas shocks prior to match start; holding that energy throughout gameplay and releasing that energy by a motorized latch system to lift a considerable section of our robot during the Finale. Is it legal to store energy as a compressed gas shock (or multiple shocks) for use later in in the end-game?

Josh Drake 12-02-2010 15:23
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
Without a lot of years of experience, I would say yes, because it has been allowed in the past.

Tom Line 12-02-2010 15:48
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
You will need to ask the Q&A for an official answer, but if I were laying odds I'd say you've got a 90% chance of being legal. Gas shocks are no different than any other spring or elastic system, and there's never (that I'm aware of) been a prohibition on using those.

Andrew Schreiber 12-02-2010 15:48
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
Short answer, as far as I can tell the answer is yes. Unless you can find a rule that explicitly forbids them they are legal. I believe they would fall under the same category as springs. (In cases where I need force and not velocity I prefer gas shocks for safety reasons) This is my interpretation and I would really appreciate if someone with more FRC experience (preferably on the inspector side of things) would confirm this interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRAKE343 (Post 918696)
Without a lot of years of experience, I would say yes, because it has been allowed in the past.
I happen to agree with you based on my reading of the 2010 rules but have to argue with how you came to this decision. Past years rules have no bearing this year.

Daniel_LaFleur 12-02-2010 16:00
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 918715)
Short answer, as far as I can tell the answer is yes. Unless you can find a rule that explicitly forbids them they are legal. I believe they would fall under the same category as springs. (In cases where I need force and not velocity I prefer gas shocks for safety reasons) This is my interpretation and I would really appreciate if someone with more FRC experience (preferably on the inspector side of things) would confirm this interpretation.



I happen to agree with you based on my reading of the 2010 rules but have to argue with how you came to this decision. Past years rules have no bearing this year.
Quote:
<R01> Energy used by FRC ROBOTS, (i.e., stored at the start of a MATCH), shall come only from the following sources:
A. Electrical energy derived from the onboard 12V battery (see Rule <R40> for specifications and further details).
B. Compressed air stored in the pneumatic system, stored at a maximum pressure of 120 PSI in no more than four Clippard Instruments tanks. Extraneous lengths of pneumatic tubing shall not be used to increase the storage capacity of the air storage system.
C. A change in the altitude of the ROBOT center of gravity.
D. Storage achieved by deformation of ROBOT parts.
Gas shocks are legal, but the letter of the rule <R1> does not allow them to store energy at the start of the match. Bill is correct in questioning this.

Bill, I would Q&A this if I were you. Asking if they are specifically not allowing energy to be stored in gas shocks

Mike Betts 12-02-2010 16:11
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Taylor (Post 918680)
In the manual, <R72-I>, seems to allow for the use of gas shocks so long as they are safe. This implies that they are legal for this game. But, <R01> restricts the methods of stored energy and does not mention gas shocks specifically. Our strategy depends on compressing gas shocks prior to match start; holding that energy throughout gameplay and releasing that energy by a motorized latch system to lift a considerable section of our robot during the Finale. Is it legal to store energy as a compressed gas shock (or multiple shocks) for use later in in the end-game?
Bill,

The GDC has posted multiple threads that verify that gas shocks can be used. Just be aware that lifting a "considerable section" of your robot implies a considerable stored energy and will attract considerable attention from the inspectors in regards to safety.

In particular, please insure that you have solid engineering data that the shocks are being used within their specifications and that you have an absolutely fail safe method of insuring the safety of all in the pits, at inspection and going onto and off of the field.

Regards,

Mike

Karibou 12-02-2010 16:11
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 918727)
Gas shocks are legal, but the letter of the rule <R1> does not allow them to store energy at the start of the match. Bill is correct in questioning this.
So would that mean that using a spring to store energy at the beginning of the match is illegal too? I would think that bending/expanding/etc a spring (or in this case, using a gas shock) of any kind would qualify as "deforming a ROBOT part."


Definitely hit up the Q&A with the question, though.

thefro526 12-02-2010 16:17
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karibou (Post 918734)
So would that mean that using a spring to store energy at the beginning of the match is illegal too? I would think that bending/expanding/etc a spring (or in this case, using a gas shock) of any kind would qualify as "deforming a ROBOT part."


Definitely hit up the Q&A with the question, though.
I would agree with this too.

Can someone please bring this up in the Q&A system or point me towards an answer already posted in Q&A? We're planning on using a gas strut on our machine this year and it would be compressed (Storing Energy) at the beginning of a match...

Mike Betts 12-02-2010 16:18
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 918727)
Gas shocks are legal, but the letter of the rule <R1> does not allow them to store energy at the start of the match.
Daniel,

<R01> does explicitly permit the deformation of robot parts (part D).

See also Team Update #7 further addresses this...

Regards.

Mike

Alan Anderson 12-02-2010 16:19
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karibou (Post 918734)
I would think that bending/expanding/etc a spring (or in this case, using a gas shock) of any kind would qualify as "deforming a ROBOT part."
I can't quite convince myself that compressing a gas is a close enough equivalent to deforming a solid for <R01> to permit it as a pre-match source of stored energy. This one will definitely need an official ruling before everyone can agree on its legality.

thefro526 12-02-2010 16:24
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Betts (Post 918744)
Thank you, but the above posting and answer are from 2007.

I would like to think that the ruling would be made with the same logic this year but I can't be sure... I guess we'll move forward until we hear otherwise.

Daniel_LaFleur 12-02-2010 16:26
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karibou (Post 918734)
So would that mean that using a spring to store energy at the beginning of the match is illegal too? I would think that bending/expanding/etc a spring (or in this case, using a gas shock) of any kind would qualify as "deforming a ROBOT part."


Definitely hit up the Q&A with the question, though.
Springs are a deformed part and thus are allowed under <R01-D>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Betts (Post 918739)
Daniel,

<R01> does explicitly permit the deformation of robot parts (part D).

See also Team Update #7 further addresses this...

Regards.

Mike
Compressed gasses are not deformed parts, if they were then we would not need pneumatic rules.

<R01> does not specifically allow compressed gasses (other than the pneumatic system) to be used as stored energy.

Personally, I see no issue with using it as long as it was legal and safe.

Mike, If you believe that compressed gas shocks are allowed to store energy at the beginning of a match, please show me the exact rule. TU#7 does not directly address compressed gasses at all, just the safety of stored energy.

Andrew Schreiber 12-02-2010 16:27
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Betts (Post 918744)
Mike, I want to accept that but that was from 2007. Definitely get a Q&A ruling on this one guys.

Mike Betts 12-02-2010 16:36
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 918748)
Mike, I want to accept that but that was from 2007. Definitely get a Q&A ruling on this one guys.
Andrew,

You are correct. I am multitasking and did not notice the date...

Mike

Mike Betts 12-02-2010 16:44
Re: Gas Shock Legality?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 918746)
Mike, If you believe that compressed gas shocks are allowed to store energy at the beginning of a match, please show me the exact rule.
Daniel,

As you well know by now, <R72> part I is the only place that gas shocks are mentioned in this year's rules.

They are not prohibited either. That makes them a non-pneumatic robot part which, in my opinion, may be deformed IAW <R01> part D.

This is my opinion. I am not a member of the GDC.

I'm going to stop typing now...

Mike


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