clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

ok, i have a question on part H of that rule.
i don't know how "easily" visible our power distribution board would be. we have a 2 tiered component layout with our first layer containing our power distribution board but it isnt the most easily visible component we have. (Detailed pic will be provided an about a day or so). But basically theres about 4-5 inches of open space between the bottom and top level but sadly they are both made a black plastic material so seeing through them is not an option.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

I would ask the FIRST Q&A for all non obvious rules interpretations, including this one.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

It sounds like it's not visible enough. Usually easily visible means you can see it when standing up a couple of feet away. Switching to a clear plastic mateiral may do it for you depending on what it looks like now.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

After asking Q&A, think about what the intent of the rule is. The intent is to not bury the PD board so you can see the lights and read the breaker values on it. As long as you can see it without sticking your head in the robot, you should be fine. In 2009, ours was about 1' under a roller/conveyor, buried in 6" of folded sheet metal, meaning it was not easily visible from a few feet away but visible from a foot or so, enough to read the values on breakers and see the lights. A past robot (2006) had no place for the controller, and the rules dictated that the lights had to be visible. It was mounted on perforated aluminum hanging under the rotating ball sorter, of which the bottom was made out of polycarb and had an open top. You could see the lights if you looked directly over it with no balls in the sorter, and it passed. If you had to modify the wiring you probably would have had to remove the ball sorter.

Remember, my opinion dosen't count. Only that of the GDC does, ask them.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

Ben, et al,

Regardless of the GDC answer, the inspector will need to inspect the breaker values and wiring to insure that all rules are met.

We would appreciate it if you did not force us to ask you to dismantle your robot in order to accomplish this.

Regards,

Mike

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

Mike is trying to tell you here, that the electrical wire size and breaker value rules are linked together. An inspector must be able to determine which breaker is feeding which wire in order to determine if the rules are met. We will try to make that determination with the robot assembled. If we cannot see the wiring and breakers, then you will have to disassemble to the point that you can demonstrate you are compliant.

As to being able to see indicators on control system components, that works in your favor as well as inspectors and field volunteers. When you are on the field and non-functional, we will try and diagnose and allow you to make changes to give you and your alliance a chance to play every match. If you take away the ability for us to help you through diagnosing, your alliance partners will be playing one robot short. This does not go unnoticed among participants and the result may be you watch instead of play on Saturday afternoon. Your decision.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

heres a bad picture of the component system from a video(ill have a much more detailed picture tomorrow). the PDB is mounted roughly right under the cRio and from the backside you can see all the lights on it (5v/12v/24v) and you might be able to see all the breakers with a flashlight. and as far as the other side goes you can easily see the connections from the 120 amp breaker to the PDB.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

A clear sheet of Polycarb looks like it might do the trick.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

Ben,

Polycarbonate may help but I'm not sure that it will be good enough. It depends on the layout of what is below...

Mike

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

Agree with Mike and Al. Having the board easily accessible is to your advantage, as well. You never know when you will need to check the board, breakers, or tighten something. Always good to be able to get to all your electrical components easily and quickly. Wires connected to Victors is another place you will want easy, good access to.

No doubt the need to do this will occur two minutes before the final match for the Regional Championship, as Mr. Murphy would say.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

@Coffeeism
i dont think polycarb will work for us, we already had our components mounted on 3/8 plexiglass but we kinda broke that lol

@rest
the top layer of components is easily removed with 4 wing nuts so while getting inspected would it be allowed to remove the top layer for inspection or do you think we really need to go with a different layout or a clear substance on the top layer.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

Polycarbonate is much stronger than Plexiglass(Acrylic). If you're breaking it, you're doing something wrong...

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

The standard tests for what clear plastic is are as follows (choose one):

A) Drill a hole. Plexiglass cracks; Lexan (polycarb) doesn't. There are ways to avoid the cracks, but in general, this works.

B) Clamp one end to a solid surface and hit it with your biggest hammer. If it breaks, it's Plexiglass.

C) If it still has the backing on it, read that.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

Ben,

Please read this post.

Mike

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

In many cases, a removable upper section would suffice. The decision is still up to your inspector. The ability to diagnose and repair quickly still remains.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

Surprisingly, part of our robot is going to look very similar - we're stacking the cRio and the PDB as well. However, we're flipping ours around - the cRio is mounted horizontally below the PDB, making the PDB easily seen at all times. For easy access, we've routed all the wires from the PDB to one side - this allows us to run them over a hinge, so the PDB can quickly and easily be raised out of the way for access to the cRio if needed during competition.

If you have the capability to create a sturdy bracket for the top board, a hinge (specifically a piano hinge) might be a great way to go. This will be the third year in a row we've used one. The first year was for a piece of plexiglass covering our electronics and the second year on a sheet aluminum "door" that allowed access to the orbit balls when the robot was turned off so they could be inserted to or removed from our mechanism quickly and easily.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

Might I suggest using a hinge on one side of your black plastic so that you can quickly unscrew the other side and flip it up for the inspector.

Otherwise, I see a little disassembly at inspection.

Remember: The inspectors are trying to get you out on to the playing field, but they are also tasked with ensuring that the robot complies with all rules. If they cannot see if you comply with the wires/breaker size rule then you will need to have you disassemble enough so they can see.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

Here's a good picture of our hinge mount.


The cRio mounts directly below this, however it's currently in use on our practice robot, thus not pictured here. We used a standard piano hinge for the mount.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

Ben,

As a robot inspector for both Portland and Seattle, I would think as I'm aproaching your robot, 'Oh no, not another one I will have to bend down and get my flashlight out and figure out what is connected to what.' I would then, bend down and get my flashlight out and figure out what is connected to what. It will take a lot longer to do that then other teams...

however...

if everything is connected properly I would check it off as good.

Now, the question you have to ask yourself is, if your team has made it to the final match, and before that match a breaker stops working, your alliance has already used it's one time out in the semi-finals, will you be able to replace it in 6 minutes?

-Jim

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

Jon,
Another beautiful job by the Robettes. Can't wait to see it up close. Goldstar for the electrical team.

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

Thanks Al. The hard part comes tonight, tomorrow and Friday, as we run all the wires between the various components. Due to an overwhelming desire to keep the robot under 17.5 inches AND still be able to do everything a robot could possibly do in this game, we weren't left with very much room to even put the electronics, let alone run the wires neatly and safely.

Our one saving grace for running the wires, however... due to the limited space, we spread everything out all over the place, and the speed controllers all ended up being extremely close to their motors. Coincidence?

Re: clarification of rule <R44> on the "The Robot" section
 

+1 to everything said here. And speaking of Mr. Murphy..

Murphy reared his ugly head when when our CRIO died in the first quarterfinals match at the San Diego Regional this year. Easy access and unobstructed placement allowed us to replace it in under 2 minites. Flashing the new one on the other hand... A different matter entirely. :rolleyes: