Team Update #14
 

http://usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Rob...pdate%2014.pdf

This one really throws a wrinkle into the pinning rule... and expands the acceptable wireless operation zone.

Re: Team Update #14
 

Sounds similar to 2008 where they were making it tough to play defense in an aggressive way. That had the affect of encouraging team play and scoring as well as making teams think of new ways and strategies for playing defense without getting penalized.

I see many different ways of playing defense this year other than pinning so it will be interesting to see how it goes.

Re: Team Update #14
 

How does that change things? I guess it means you don't have to be 6 feet away for 3 whole seconds, so the pinning victim can't extend it's own safety window?

Wireless practice fields! <3

Re: Team Update #14
 

You still need to back away 6 feet for 3 seconds. It's one of those things like "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Why do they feel the need to change things that don't need to be changed? :rolleyes:

Re: Team Update #14
 

It means that the pin count doesn't stop as soon as you break contact like it used to; with speeds that robots travel, this effectively takes the pin count from 5 seconds to 4 seconds before the robots need to separate.

Re: Team Update #14
 

They might have well said "no pinning is permitted" If it takes your bot 1 second to travel 6 feel then you establish a pin then hold for 4 seconds and have to drive away.

There are 2 problems I have with this is 1) it gives the refs another thing to pass a judgment on ie. What is 6 feet. Before the count itself was always in question but now they have to judge time and distance. and 2) what happens if the robot who is pinned makes it impossible for your robot to get 6 feet away, or in another case if you are trapped in by another robot 4 ft behind you.

I understand the intent of the rule is to discourage pinning a team to completely shut down scoring, but i am not sure they didn't open up Pandora's box of bad/tough calls by the implementation of this rule.

Re: Team Update #14
 

I'd think that would fall under a penalty forced by another robot so no penalty. Could be some interesting calls though

Re: Team Update #14
 

Agreed.
In what seems to be such a low scoring game, additional (and questionable) ref calls could cause some serious discontent.

Re: Team Update #14
 

Completely agreed. I understand the intent as well, but I think the fewer rules the better. We'll see how it plays out, but I love watching and playing defense, and I don't think discouraging it is the right way to go. I think defence should just be part of the game and teams should need to make their robots able to win pushing battles or be pushed. It's something teams should have to keep in mind in design and it makes the game more fun.

That said, I'm sure the GDC had a good reason, and I can't say I have thought about the game and what it needs to any degree near comparable to the people on the GDC.

Re: Team Update #14
 

In order to run wireless on the practice field teams will be required to use a FIRST issued radio on the practice field that has been paired with the practice field router. Teams will not be allowed (or able) to run on the practice field with their own team radio.

While this is better it still does not allow teams to verify that their radio is configured properly and functioning before they arrive at the playing field. [Edit: That is what the first practice match is for]

Re: Team Update #14
 

Well i guess that rule makes the game a lot more like soccer in a sense. A pinned robot who has the ability to keep themselves within 6 ft of the other robot can try to draw the foul by chasing the pinner. Lol, instead of dramatic soccer players acting hurt there will be robot follow the leader :p

Re: Team Update #14
 

Incorrect as per <G13>

By keeping themselves purposely within 6 feet they are attempting to cause the other alliance a penalty, and thus excusing them from said penalty.

Re: Team Update #14
 

6 feet won't be that hard to estimate. It's 2xlong side of robots and 3x short sides of most robots on the field.

As to pining about no pinning - back off brutes! I've been reading various brags about how they're not going to be pushed or push people all over the field. Perhaps it comes from too much exposure to the many electronic games that emphasize anti-social gaming.

I think it's good that the game be compared to soccer. Just imagine if it were more like rugby! That would be a game for the heavy duty pushing machines all right. You've heard that soccer is a gentleman's game played by ruffians, while rugby is the ruffian's game played by gentlemen. Maybe next year for the rugby-like frame-crunching FRC game?

Re: Team Update #14
 

Or perhaps it comes from people remembering 2007 where defense was a huge factor and had similar pinning rules. Like it or not, I think defense will be a factor.

Re: Team Update #14
 

FIRST is really pushing this game to be more like soccer. Lets just hope the FIRSTer's don't take the forthcoming questionable calls too seriously...


If another robot is intentionally trying to push you while their pinned. Would <G11> be enforced. In other words. to be essentially counted as pinned. Would one have to either a) stop moving or b) try to move AWAY from the other robot?

Re: Team Update #14
 

Gee, this gets more like real soccer with every day that passes!

-Nick

Re: Team Update #14
 

Pinning only happens when a team is stuck against a field element. You can bump and grind in the middle of the field to your heart's content.

The matches could actually be pretty boring without some kind of pinning rule, so even though we've built a drive train with "physical interaction" in mind, I'm happy to comply with any reasonable rule on pinning.

Jason

Re: Team Update #14
 

I can't say I like this very much.

In 2007, with a "small" field (basically cut in half because of the rack) swerves and mechanums advantages were largely removed. They didn't have the distance or time to maneuver, and this made it possible to take a not-so-great robot and play defense on them reasonably well. This made the games closer and more strategic.

With the field cut in 3rds this year, you have even less room. Yes, swerves and mechanum are nice to get to that ball, but their drawback has always been lack of power and ability to be pinned (some swerves overcame that).

This played a huge roll in our drivetrain and our gearing selections this year. We figured on close in battles and a ton of defense in those little 1/3 size fields, and sized our drivetrain accordingly.

Now, I'm looking at this and wishing we had known at the beginning of the season that hard-nose defense on a good "O" bot wasn't going to be as effective. We may very well have gone down a different road.

Oh well. Another opportunity to improve!

Re: Team Update #14
 

"Somehow, Section 7, Rev I still doesn’t have the changes issued in Team Update 10 (and subsequently, 11) incorporated. Third time’s a charm."

I lol'd

In regards to the pinning rule, I like it. I was afraid that elims were going to be a defense fest as it is. I would like to see some high scoring mathes in Elims but as Car Nack predicted, there's a high probability that Quals will have higher scores.

Re: Team Update #14
 

Tom,

Hard nosed defense doesn't mean pinning always. And hard nosed defense will be effective, just different.

The game just became a little (1 second) more fluid and defense now must be a bit more agile.

TBH, I believe that once you get into the elims, good defense will be king.

Re: Team Update #14
 

;) Man no one's ever happy, huh?

Re: Team Update #14
 

my point exactly hard nose defense is all about making the other person feel uncomfortable and cause them to make mistakes.

Re: Team Update #14
 

As a team that plans on playing a lot of effective defense, I'm just a bit offended at the implied anti-social tendencies of my teammates and myself solely because we think pushing a robot aside to get to a ball is a good idea in a game full of mecanum and other lower-traction drives. "Physical" interaction has been a part of FRC for every year that isn't 2001, and I don't want my team being called funny names just because we interact with our opponents to help an alliance succeed. (Not very anti-social to me...)

---

With Update 14, I hope teams remember that there are other ways to play defense rather than pure immobilization! :)

Re: Team Update #14
 

It appears that FIRST has realized through the pre-ship scrimmages that this will be a very low scoring game and changed pinning to encourage scoring.

Breakaway is a good game, but only when there is scoring on the field. Week 1 events will certainly not be the exciting soccer matches that FIRST envisioned spectators would enjoy, but will improve greatly as the weeks go on.

Re: Team Update #14
 

Now it says no pinning against a field element. The floor is not a field element, but is the bump?

Re: Team Update #14
 

It's always said "field element". That's not a change.

As for whether the bump counts as a field element, there was discussion on that previously--inconclusive, IIRC. Looking at the Q&A, I can't find anything either.

I would say that it probably does, being part of the field and all (as opposed to being a game piece or a robot), but I'm not 100% certain, and I don't think anyone has specifically asked Q&A for a ruling.

Re: Team Update #14
 

1> please quote the rule that states no pinning against a field element. All the GDC did was redefine how the timing of pinning is to be determined, and it didn't change much.

2> The bump is, and always has been, part of the field. As such, teams can (and will) be pinned against it.

None of these will stop effective defense. Good defensive teams will keep offensive teams from just lining up and shooting.

Now lets all just take a deep breath. Things aren't as bad as it seems ... really.

I find it a complete waste of time to whine about rule changes, and a much better use of my time making sure my team knows the rules and knows how to play all aspects of the game (defense included) within those rules. I might suggest others do the same.

Re: Team Update #14
 

Sorry you are correct. I read the update as they just added the 6 foot rule.

We aren't a defence team and never have been. Some teams are and I would hate to see a major rule change for them that effects their design.