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Tanner 05-03-2010 22:09

Ranking
 
Hi all,

Second day of Peachtree - yay!

Now that we're actually playing matches and having the ranking system react, it doesn't make very much sense to us.

My team has lost a few matches due to mechanical problems, and have found ourselves going up in the rankings for no reason. We have even missed matches and gone up. I talked to a team that had won 80% of their matches and are ranked towards the bottom of the list.

I'm confused. How is this supposed to work? Like I've read the rules and all, but what?!

Cheers
-Tanner

Tarzan19 05-03-2010 22:13

Re: Ranking
 
Dont worry, this years ranking systems has thrown everyone at the Kansas City Regional off as well.
Example: we were ranked 5, lossed 9 to 0 and went to rank 2. :eek:
We are just going with the flow here.

Tanner 05-03-2010 22:16

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarzan19 (Post 931932)
Example: we were ranked 5, lossed 9 to 0 and went to rank 2. :eek:

That's really odd. Kinda like the odd that makes you tilt your head.

Yeah, we've can't change it so there's not much to do. Hopefully some of the rookie teams in the top will realize its not all about ranking.

-Tanner

IndySam 05-03-2010 22:20

Re: Ranking
 
Did you guys go into this without reading and understanding the seeding rules?

This leaves me completely baffled and befuddled.

,4lex S. 05-03-2010 22:23

Re: Ranking
 
People who are surprised by their low rank, despite winning matches need to A) STOP TAKING PENALTIES!!! and B) Strategize with the rules in mind.

Vikesrock 05-03-2010 22:27

Re: Ranking
 
Maybe we need to get people to make multiple announcements about this at events, many teams obviously don't understand this based on the gameplay I'm seeing (I'm not just picking on you two).

WINS AND LOSSES DO NOT MATTER FOR RANKING THIS YEAR. They affect how many qualifying points you receive from a match, but after QPs are assigned the system no longer tracks who won and lost the match.

Quote:

9.3.4 Match Seeding Points
All teams on the winning ALLIANCE will receive a number of seeding points equal to the penalized score (the score with any assessed penalties) of the winning ALLIANCE.
All teams on the losing ALLIANCE will receive a number of seeding points equal to un-penalized score (the score without any assessed penalties) of the winning ALLIANCE.
In the case of a tie, all participating teams will receive a number of seeding points equal to their ALLIANCE score (with any assessed penalties).
9.3.5 Coopertition™ Bonus
All teams on the winning ALLIANCE will receive a coopertition bonus: a number of seeding points equal to twice the un-penalized score (the score without any assessed penalties) of the losing ALLIANCE.
In the case of a tie, all participating teams will receive a coopertition bonus of a number of seeding points equal to twice their ALLIANCE score (with any assessed penalties).
The Coopertition Bonus is the important part here. It is added to the Seeding Points earned as described in section 9.3.4 in addition to being recoded separately as a tiebreaker.

You want high scores in this game! If both alliances are scoring high it is much better to win than lose, but a 5-0 loss is better than a 3-0 win!!

Mr. Lim 05-03-2010 22:28

Re: Ranking
 
Pro-tip:

Friends don't let friends play defense! (in qualifications)

Tarzan19 05-03-2010 22:30

Re: Ranking
 
I understand the rules.
a day of competition made sure of that, it just baffled me that we were stomp and still shoot up 3 ranks, thats all.

Collin Fultz 05-03-2010 22:36

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Lim (Post 931953)
Pro-tip:

Friends don't let friends play defense! (in qualifications)

Good luck getting this to happen. Every match at KC has had defense played in it. Teams still want to win. And, judging by the scores across the country, KC isn't the only place this is true.

I am personally becomming a fan of this new ranking system. It's really factoring in a strength of schedule into the rankings. In the old system, a 2-0 win was worth the same as a 10-9 win (I know...ranking points...but the W was the most important). Now, a 10-9 win is a HUGE score.

We'll see how it plays out, but so far, I'm a fan. And, as I look through the top teams at KC on the rankings, I agree with most of them, which is more than I could say for the old system at times.

Chris is me 05-03-2010 22:37

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Lim (Post 931953)
Pro-tip:

Friends don't let friends play defense! (in qualifications)

If both teams have scored points, playing limited defense to secure a win is often more beneficial than a zero defense match.

Tanner 05-03-2010 22:37

Re: Ranking
 
Well, yeah we always try not to get penalties (isn't that the general goal for any alliance?).

I'm not saying I don't understand how it is found, I'm saying I don't understand why it was made to be like this. It doesn't make much sense to me. 'Course I never understood completely how it worked in year's past, but at least it made logical sense.

-Tanner

Chuck Glick 05-03-2010 22:59

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Collin Fultz (Post 931963)
I am personally becomming a fan of this new ranking system. It's really factoring in a strength of schedule into the rankings. In the old system, a 2-0 win was worth the same as a 10-9 win (I know...ranking points...but the W was the most important). Now, a 10-9 win is a HUGE score.

There is an easy way to factor in the difficulty of a match. Take both the red and blue scores (before penalties), add them together, and divide by 2 (or not). There is your match difficulty score. Teams are ranked by win/loss first, then difficulty score. This both promotes scoring and winning.

Collin Fultz 05-03-2010 23:48

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Glick (Post 931989)
There is an easy way to factor in the difficulty of a match. Take both the red and blue scores (before penalties), add them together, and divide by 2 (or not). There is your match difficulty score. Teams are ranked by win/loss first, then difficulty score. This both promotes scoring and winning.

Isn't this basically what the old system did? It ranked you by W/L then by opponent's points, so if you were winning high scoring matches, you ranked higher than if you were winning low scoring matches or matches where you scored high but your opponents don't score much.

I'm not saying one way is better than the other, yet. Let's get through a few weeks of regionals and Champs before hashing it out. All I'm saying is that I REALLY didn't like the ranking process going into this morning, but after watching it play out for a day, it's not so bad.

Will there be flaws in any system that uses such a small population of data to "rank" teams? Of course. That's the world in which we choose to compete. I'm just saying it's not as bad as I thought it would be going in.

ubermeister 05-03-2010 23:53

Re: Ranking
 
I would be a fan of the new ranking system if the matches were higher-scoring. Here is an example of what happened to us:

We won a match 3-2 and were very happy, this was a fairly good match for us. Then, a robot on our alliance was assessed 5 <G46> penalties and the other team 1, causing us to lose 0-1. This means we get 2 seeding points. The other team gets 1 + 6 = 7 seeding points. This is a huge number of seeding points when the matches are usually won 1 or 2 to 0 (we only have around 8 seeding points total). A win due to exorbitant penalties on a good alliance is not a strategic win, and should not be rewarded like this.

Vikesrock 05-03-2010 23:57

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermeister (Post 932018)
A win due to exorbitant penalties on a good alliance is not a strategic win, and should not be rewarded like this.

If the alliance wracked up exorbitant penalties I guess they weren't really so good after all were they?

Moral of the story: Don't get penalties!!

nikeairmancurry 06-03-2010 00:04

Re: Ranking
 
Yeah, but Michigan teams still need to win every match possible to quailfiy for states (State ranking points are based on wins/loses).. Kinda throws a monkey wrench into everything...

Nawaid Ladak 06-03-2010 00:09

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarzan19 (Post 931956)
I understand the rules.
a day of competition made sure of that, it just baffled me that we were stomp and still shoot up 3 ranks, thats all.

the reason you shot up 3 spots was because nobody else played who was ranked above you, you pretty much gained nine points in the seeding match while everyone else didn't play.

I love this new rating system. I still do not comprehend why someone would want to play defense during qualifications, unless that's their outlet to get into the eliminations.

Speaking of that, im going to get a good laugh when those scores are much lower than what we're already seeing.

Vikesrock 06-03-2010 00:11

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry (Post 932020)
Yeah, but Michigan teams still need to win every match possible to quailfiy for states (State ranking points are based on wins/loses).. Kinda throws a monkey wrench into everything...

While Michigan teams definitely have an added wrinkle, don't forget that making the Top 8 is also worth points in the Michigan system.

Being the #8 seed is worth more than 4 wins, and being the number 1 seed is worth the same as 8 wins.

Smoores 06-03-2010 00:11

Re: Ranking
 
Yeah it seems that after 5 solid hours of live streaming today. A significant amount of teams don"t realize how they should play the game. Blocking hurts everyone, and multiple times people tried bumping robots trying to elevate. But holy cow, THERE WERE SO MANY PENALTIES!!!:ahh:

davidfv 06-03-2010 00:23

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 931946)
Did you guys go into this without reading and understanding the seeding rules?

This leaves me completely baffled and befuddled.

IndySam... Sounds like many people did just that...

TD912 06-03-2010 00:30

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoores (Post 932026)
THERE WERE SO MANY PENALTIES!!!:ahh:

Yeah, I can't count the number of penalties there were for robots that somehow managed to drive on top of the soccer balls...

dtengineering 06-03-2010 01:27

Re: Ranking
 
Well, as was posted somewhere else earlier.... "FIRST finally gives us a game where human beings can understand the scoring system, and then goes and gives us a ranking system that requires a two hour seminar on co-opertition to comprehend."

I get what FIRST is trying to do with the ranking system. I get the fact that Dean Kamen managed to get a patent on it... I've even read the patent (and the many objections the USPTO raised to it)... AND I get the fact that it is the rules, and that FIRST can set whatever rules they want. Even if I think the rule happens to be needlessly confusing, it is still a rule.

But it would really help to get people (who don't geek out over the FRC rules book) interested and excited about FRC if the ranking system could be quickly and easily understood by a person off the street without a lengthy lecture on "changing culture".

Thank goodness the elimination rounds will make sense to people who come to watch them.

Jason


P.S. My sympathies to those who don't "get it". It will all make sense if you watch a four hour retrospective video on the collected speeches of Dean and Woodie. You might still not LIKE it, but at least you'll "get" it.

Wei 06-03-2010 01:37

Re: Ranking
 
FIRST has made winning or losing a match this year unimportant (for qualification matches). Its how everyone does (including your opponents) that affects your seeding score; not winning or losing. FIRST seem to have set up a version of the prisoner dilemma (game theory). Almost everyone I have talked to at the DC regional (on Friday) is playing this year's game as a zero sum game(my gain is your lost).

Imagine the scoring potential if all SIX robots were working together to score all the points for blue or for red. According to this years seeding formula:
winner seeding points = (winning alliance score - Penalty) + 2*(losing alliance score)
loser seeding points = winning alliance score

If everyone works together and the losing alliance does not have any points, then the winner and the loser get the exact same seeding score.

Where this is not a zero sum game is the number of balls score will be much higher when all six robots are working together then working against each other or the alliance leaving each other alone. Its very easy to move all the balls from the middle to the offense zone if there are 3 to 4 robots in the middle zone. You're more likely to have a robot free to handle a returning ball if the other robots taking a little longer dealing with their current ball(s). With the remaining 2 to 3 robot in the scoring zone, you have a situation where 1 to 2 robots are scoring while the other robot is collect balls to be score. With 6 working robots, the limitation on points will be how fast the human players can get the balls back into play, so that there are no penalties.

Under this strategy, the robots that cooperate the best together get the best seeding scores.

Koko Ed 06-03-2010 04:03

Re: Ranking
 
I avoided looking at the rankings most of the day because I didn't want to give myself a bigger headache than I already had from queing in week 1.
I had people coming up to me requesting tutorials about the ranking system.
How do you explain this to the average person off the street what's going on?
Whatever happened to making a game easy for the public to understand?

Eugene Fang 06-03-2010 04:19

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 932093)
I avoided looking at the rankings most of the day because I didn't want to give myself a bigger headache than I already had from queing in week 1.
I had people coming up to me requesting tutorials about the ranking system.
How do you explain this to the average person off the street what's going on?
Whatever happened to making a game easy for the public to understand?

Simple explaination: you want to beat your opponents, but only by a little.

Now the hard part -- explaining why FIRST wants us to do this to a non-FIRSTer.

Koko Ed 06-03-2010 04:27

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EugeneF (Post 932097)

Now the hard part -- explaining why FIRST wants us to do this to a non-FIRSTer.

Because FIRST wants everyone to have a sense of accomplishment even if you didn't accomplish anything during the match.

sanddrag 06-03-2010 04:46

Re: Ranking
 
It seems to me that if you know you are going to lose a match anyhow, you're better off to score for your opponents, and not at all for yourself. Does this make sense?

sgreco 06-03-2010 07:47

Re: Ranking
 
I have declined to comment on the scoring system all year...

So all I have to say is: Any scoring system that ever gives people incentive to score on themselves at ANY point during ANY match needs to be re-evaluated.

What was wrong with the old days when the teams that won got the best seeds? What part of earning your seeding position isn't fair?

Bongle 06-03-2010 08:34

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sgreco (Post 932117)
I have declined to comment on the scoring system all year...

So all I have to say is: Any scoring system that ever gives people incentive to score on themselves at ANY point during ANY match needs to be re-evaluated.

What was wrong with the old days when the teams that won got the best seeds? What part of earning your seeding position isn't fair?

Unless, as posted above, FIRST's intent was to make a game where you aren't true opponents. Before the alliance era, there were games where (as I understand it) you had to work together with the others in the match to maximize your score in that match. If you look at backwards scoring less as "scoring on yourself" and more as "scoring for the greater good of both alliances", then the difference becomes clearer. This game and seeding system can be interpreted as not a strictly 3v3 game, it can also be seen at 6v0.

The highest possible QP comes from a tightly-fought match, but the most reliable QP comes if both teams agree to co-operate and only score on one side.

JB987 06-03-2010 10:18

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bongle (Post 932132)
Unless, as posted above, FIRST's intent was to make a game where you aren't true opponents. Before the alliance era, there were games where (as I understand it) you had to work together with the others in the match to maximize your score in that match. If you look at backwards scoring less as "scoring on yourself" and more as "scoring for the greater good of both alliances", then the difference becomes clearer. This game and seeding system can be interpreted as not a strictly 3v3 game, it can also be seen at 6v0.

The highest possible QP comes from a tightly-fought match, but the most reliable QP comes if both teams agree to co-operate and only score on one side.

True if you could avoid penalties, which teams obviously are not doing;)

JaneYoung 06-03-2010 10:33

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JB987 (Post 932154)
True if you could avoid penalties, which teams obviously are not doing;)

They will figure that out. Or not.

XaulZan11 06-03-2010 10:52

Re: Ranking
 
I wonder if there is a relationship between rank and opponents average score. For the first time, I don't want my opponents to be rookie box bots that cannot score. I would rathar lose 2-1 than win 1-0, so good opponents may be necessary to rank high. While this system may add a bit of 'strength of schedule' it may have put too much weight on it.

BJT 06-03-2010 11:12

Re: Ranking
 
The good news is that there was apparently no reasonable way to make this fruity plan work in the finals. Not that they didn't probably try. And that's the nicest way to say what I think about this.

indubitably 06-03-2010 11:26

Re: Ranking
 
Honestly, I think that the GDC is trying to stray away from the traditional team 1 has the 2 best bots and an okay one. Then all other alliances are more balanced.

Tanner 06-03-2010 20:22

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sgreco (Post 932117)
So all I have to say is: Any scoring system that ever gives people incentive to score on themselves at ANY point during ANY match needs to be re-evaluated.

What was wrong with the old days when the teams that won got the best seeds? What part of earning your seeding position isn't fair?

I think that if we're going to call it a competition/game, we should get the points we earned for winning a match. Yeah, I can see that being on a losing alliance isn't great all the time, but like - it's a game/competition. Not everything is even.

We thought of the idea of blocking our goals in a match to get zero points, just to prove a point that the system is just skewed strange.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EugeneF (Post 932097)
Simple explaination: you want to beat your opponents, but only by a little.

Wasn't it like that last year? Or that's at least how I understood it (though I was just programmer and not anything with the field team).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 932093)
How do you explain this to the average person off the street what's going on?
Whatever happened to making a game easy for the public to understand?

Yeah, I don't get this easier. If the smart kids (on my team/regional) can barely make sense of it, how can we expect a average person to? That doesn't make sense.

I don't know, it's just really confusing to me how things can be made so much to make everything seem "fair" in a competition where there are winners and losers. I can see where the GDC/Dean got the idea to make things "more fair" for the losing alliance, but at some point in life, we have to learn that not everything is rewarding in the big picture. In the team's picture, they learn so much only if they take advantage of it.

Still doesn't dwell with me, but like it is what it is. We have to make due with it.

-Tanner

Justin Montois 06-03-2010 20:29

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 931946)
Did you guys go into this without reading and understanding the seeding rules?

This leaves me completely baffled and befuddled.

I encountered this with MANY teams at FLR. It's frustrating trying to explain a strategy only to have the other drive team not comprehend why the strategy is beneficial to them because they don't know the system.

Teams often overlook Section 9 of the manual, this year it was very evident. Hopefully by championship all teams will understand the system.

ttldomination 06-03-2010 20:33

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vikesrock (Post 931952)
... a 5-0 loss is better than a 3-0 win!!

I just want to point this out as a part of Vikesrock's post. If this is what the system promotes, I sure hope I'm not the only one that has a problem with it.

ubermeister 06-03-2010 20:51

Re: Ranking
 
I think the scoring system has many problems, but I am starting to see how it works.

The system obviously degenerates when the scores are low and the penalties are high (see my previous post.) But, if you work with the assumption that you are a good team, you will see that you will be highly rewarded, and rewarded more for winning against other good teams.

The system isn't supposed to sort the entire team list by how good they are, it is only supposed to find the top 8. The rest are essentially random, since they are going off mostly other teams' scores. The top alliances are going off mostly their scores and their coopertition.

The one thing I still don't like is how in a 5-5 tie, one penalty causes a 10 point swing in how seeding points are distributed. It gets too discontinuous on evenly-matched teams.

Don Wright 07-03-2010 08:53

Re: Ranking
 
Just my thoughts on this...

First of all, I don't think the ranking system really affects the non-FIRST people that are coming into the arena and watching the tournament. Most of them really don't watch a ranking screen to see everyone's rank. They see the competition and how the matches turn out. Of course, explaining to them why all the robots might be all scoring on one side might be fun...but usually, if all the teams are scoring and playing offense, then I think it looks good to them.

I was surprised at how well the rankings worked out at Kettering. From my general observations, the top 8 teams were deserving and I didn't see any "oh they shouldn't be up there" teams. I think it was also backed up by most of the top 8 picking other top 8 teams which showed to me that the rankings were right.

Sure, it's a strange system, but I'm anxious to see how it plays out for the rest of the season. We all just have to do two things...

1. Tell everyone to stop playing defense in quals. I think when people are surprised when they lose a match and still go up in standings the message will get across, but the more points scored in a match on either side helps everyone!

2. Please, please, please fix your robots to stop taking penalties. And if you have taken penalties in a match and have a yellow card for it, please be careful to not get a red card. It was sad to see two red card matches and disqualifications in elimination rounds at Kettering.

dodar 07-03-2010 09:18

Re: Ranking
 
cooperatition points go off the losing alliance's actual score or unpenalized score?

Valkyrie133 07-03-2010 09:39

Re: Ranking
 
If you were at FLR this weekend, you saw members of the red alliance go over and exchange high-fives with the blue alliance after a qualifying match...why? Because all six teams were deliberately scoring goals only for the blue alliance. (I think the score was 11-0 for that match.) It was great for the seeding points for those six teams, but anyone who didn't understand the seeding point system - including members of the general public who might never have seen a FIRST event before - would have have been totally baffled.

Yes, it's strategy, and it does encourage cooperation. But it also removes competition, at least until the elimination rounds. It's a bit odd to be cheering for your team's robot when it spends the entire match sitting in front of your goal to block it! :confused:

Vikesrock 07-03-2010 11:29

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 932607)
cooperatition points go off the losing alliance's actual score or unpenalized score?

unpenalized

Paul Copioli 07-03-2010 12:03

Re: Ranking
 
Our first match on Friday morning we didn't move one inch (not a robot problem, a person forgetting to do something problem). We were outscored 3-1, but due to penalties won 1-0. Our seeding score was 7 (1 + 2*3).

I will come out and say I do not like the system. I will say that I prefer wins and losses. However, I understand the reasoning for the 2x losing score and how it was implemented pre-2004 was much better than this year. The reason: in those years the losing alliance got their own penalized score so there was incentive to score for yourself.

The small tweak made this year from the pre-2004 years is breaking the system. More and more teams are figuring out that 6-0 is better for their situation. If the GDC intended this, then I guess they are getting what they wanted.

If this is an unintended consequence, then that is unfortunate for all of us participating.

With that said, I am not so concerned about people outside of FIRST understanding the ranking. Why? Because I have been telling people I know that are not part of FIRST to come to the event Saturday around 12:30pm since 2000. Like many sports, round robin play (aka qualification matches) are borrrring. Elimination round matches are exciting. This has worked for people I know for years as I have many repeat spectators at many of our local events.

When the season is over, I will give FIRST my opinion of the seeding system as I feel it is my responsibility; but if it stays this way for many seasons, my teams will live with it.

I can guarantee this: I will push like crazy to have IRI be based on wins & losses in qualifying!!!

XaulZan11 07-03-2010 13:18

Re: Ranking
 
Since so many teams and even more spectators are confused with the new ranking system where wins/losses do not matter, why doesn't FIRST show the seeding points each alliance gains instead of just goals, bonus, penalties and final score? I think this would really force people to understand the new ranking system.

JABot67 07-03-2010 13:31

Re: Ranking
 
I think that this year's ranking scheme has worked very well, and that is because now in order to be ranked in the top 8, you must beat good teams. Winning a great offensive match against good opponents is now worth much more than winning a match against three robots that do not move.
Take a look at the Kettering District top 8 qualifiers:

67
910
2619
33
2834
27
245
201

All of these teams were very deserving of their top 8 spots. (2619 is a beastly scoring machine; same with 2834. If you don't know them now, you will know them by the end of the season.) The reason 67 got seeded #1 was because we won q45 with 33 and 2834 and against 910, 70, and 894. Not only did we have good partners... the opposing alliance was amazing as well. 910 was ahead of us by a large margin in seeding points, and when we won 12-11 without penalties, it boosted our seeding score by 34 points.

If 910's alliance would have won, it would have boosted their score by around the same number of points, and they almost certainly would have been ranked #1. But the thing is that the ranking scheme didn't screw 910 over for losing that one match. They still ended up ranking second.

What I liked about this is that our matches against powerful opponents (such like 2619, 27, 910, 201, 51, 2834, and 245) gave us more points than "easy" matches where we were allied with good partners and didn't face very much opposition. A not so good robot can win a lot of matches if it has an easy schedule. But that robot cannot win a high scoring match against good teams, and therefore will not be ranked high. This is the reason why I believe the new ranking system better determines which teams should be in the top 8.

Also, I do not think that the new ranking system encourages you to score for the other alliance. Say your alliance can score 11 balls in a match. So you can either get 11 seeding points by scoring for yourself, or you can score 5 of those balls for the other alliance and win the match 6-5. This gives you 16 points, 5 more than if you only scored for yourself. But then the other alliance can score a couple balls or hang at the end of the match, or your alliance could get penalties, and bam, you've lost. In my opinion, that's too much risk.

But what about the other regionals/districts? Do you think the ranking system worked well for determining the top 8, or did it fail?

beachmom561 07-03-2010 13:38

Re: Ranking
 
I understand that they want to find a better way of ranking seeding points but this just seems too full of political correctness of trying to make everyone feel good. Kind of the new scoring rules of t-ball. Everyone wins so no one feels bad.
A better way can surely be found.
Believe me, our team has had years when our bot did great but the alliances we were in just didn't do well. So, even though we did well individually we have been seeded low on the list. We ended up getting picked for alliances in the quarter finals anyway most of the time. Because of profiling, this happens quite often.

jspatz1 07-03-2010 14:07

Re: Ranking
 
I'm afraid this was a case a fixing something that wasn't broken.

Koko Ed 07-03-2010 15:11

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli (Post 932696)

I can guarantee this: I will push like crazy to have IRI be based on wins & losses in qualifying!!!

I think any off season event entertaining the thought of using this ranking system runs the risk of having a very very hard time attracting teams.

Jim Meyer 07-03-2010 15:54

Re: Ranking
 
I'll side with the game committee on this one, at least for the time being. I think if it were the win based system we'd see far too many of these matches end 0 - 0. I think that ballances out these odd everyone score on the same goals matches.

The BCS calculation for College Football definitely isn't simple. I don't think a complicated ranking system makes the sport any less interesting or entertaining. It's the odd strategies that develop from this particular complicated ranking system that make it confusing. I'd be in favor of an even more complicated system that didn't encourage this strange behavior.

I really don't get these "everyone score in the same side" matches. Lets say the blue alliance decides to score in the red goals. Why wouldn't the red alliance get a comfortable lead then start scoring in the blue goals? It'd be like getting two points for every goal scored, points that can't be taken away by penalties.

Bongle 07-03-2010 16:26

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Meyer (Post 932876)
I really don't get these "everyone score in the same side" matches. Lets say the blue alliance decides to score in the red goals. Why wouldn't the red alliance get a comfortable lead then start scoring in the blue goals? It'd be like getting two points for every goal scored, points that can't be taken away by penalties.

If Blue was really smart about it, they'd park their two least effective robots in front of their own goals to guarantee that Red couldn't score. Alternately, you can just have an agreement between teams at the start of the match that you'll only score in one goal.

If you agree to score in Red goals, then there are pluses and minuses for both teams:
Red: Certainty of a win, easy to tell if Blue isn't following through
Blue: As long as Red follows through, you'll get at least as many points as they do. If Red takes penalties (or even if you take penalties), they don't count against you in seeding points.

BrendanB 07-03-2010 17:09

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beachmom561 (Post 932779)
I understand that they want to find a better way of ranking seeding points but this just seems too full of political correctness of trying to make everyone feel good. Kind of the new scoring rules of t-ball. Everyone wins so no one feels bad.
.

We are high school students and it is not the end of the world when we lose. "everybody wins" is a concept that I don't like. When losing matches, I usually am mad and feel as though we should win. Then I realize that the teams we faced won fair and square and we are not as good as them and I gain a respect for those teams.

I agree with something Travis Hoffman said in another thread,
Quote:

Cooperate BEHIND the curtain; compete IN FRONT OF it. Merge the two to get your "coopertition". That formula has worked for years.

Tanner 07-03-2010 17:18

Re: Ranking
 
I agree with what BrendanB and a few others have said.

On the point of the general public seeing this, yeah its not entirely evident, but it really is when the team wins a match by a few points, returns to the pit cheering, and then the cheering goes away when we find our rank moved down.

'Course I'm probably overstating something here, but we kinda got the feeling that is was "ok" to lose (as we moved up), but it kinda pushed us away from playing the game the best that we could, not that we didn't try to anyway.

-Tanner

sgreco 07-03-2010 17:28

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bongle (Post 932902)
If Blue was really smart about it, they'd park their two least effective robots in front of their own goals to guarantee that Red couldn't score.

That wouldn't be legal.

G29

Quote:

Defending ROBOT Restriction - Only one opposing ALLIANCE ROBOT is allowed in the opponent’s ZONE. A ROBOT is considered in this ZONE if any part of the ROBOT is in contact with the ZONE's green carpet. Violation: PENALTY; plus a RED CARD if effort to remedy is not immediate.

IKE 07-03-2010 17:31

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sgreco (Post 932953)
That wouldn't be legal.

G29

Nope, Bongle is right. They are defending their own goals and thus 2 bots are allowed to hang out at home.

Yep, it is wierd, but correct.

Tanner 07-03-2010 17:34

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IKE (Post 932957)
Nope, Bongle is right. They are defending their own goals and thus 2 bots are allowed to hang out at home.

Yep, it is wierd, but correct.

Our team was considering that once for one of our matches, but decided against it as we hoped that our new and improved suction device would work better. Results? We lost with a score of zero anyway.

-Tanner

s_forbes 07-03-2010 17:44

Re: Ranking
 
I'm a little surprised at how much of an uproar this is causing. I'm looking at the final standings for all the week 1 regionals, and the top bots are still at the top where they belong. In the cases where a non-elite robot makes it into the top 8: that happened with the wins/losses ranking format too.

Here are some numbers from week 1 results that some people might find interesting.

Code:

Week 1        (Avg. Match pts)        (Avg. Seed pts/match)        (#1 Seed pts/match)        (#8 Seed pts/match)
SDC        2.2        5.8        10.2        8.3
DC        1.9        5.0        8.3        6.1
GA        1.7        4.3        8.2        5.0
KC        2.6        6.6        12.4        8.9
NH        2.9        7.4        12.6        9.0
ROC        2.8        7.1        11.8        9.4
OR        2.6        6.3        11.4        8.2
NJ        2.8        6.8        14.3        8.4
GT        2.2        5.7        9.1        6.3
GG        3.1        7.7        15.3        9.8


mariak37 07-03-2010 17:57

Re: Ranking
 
Actually, this was what our alliance did for our last qualification match, at the KC regional. We'd noticed the system didn't seem fair (why should the losing team get the points that the winning team scored?) so our alliance scored in the other alliance's goals. It ended up 13-0 with one penalty, so they had 13 QPs and we had 14. It was interesting, because we actually ended up playing defense in front of our own goals.

I agree that the system at least needs to be revised, to place more emphasis on wins and losses and less on the scores. Another problem that you could run into is that a blowout gives both alliances more QPs than a hard-fought match with well-played defense, where the score ends up, say, 2-3. It is also probably better for a losing team to lose by a lot-not a way to encourage continued scoring even if you're down.

A final problem is that all the hullaballoo about ranking points means that teams may have to entirely change their strategies between qualification matches and finals.

ttldomination 07-03-2010 18:02

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tanner (Post 932959)
Our team was considering that once for one of our matches, but decided against it as we hoped that our new and improved suction device would work better. Results? We lost with a score of zero anyway.

-Tanner

Hahaha, we changed our strategy three times. The first plan was to purposefully take the loss, then we decided to play, thirty seconds into the match we decided to back off and just take the loss.

- Sunny

Bongle 07-03-2010 18:41

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sgreco (Post 932953)
That wouldn't be legal.

G29

Poor wording on my part:

Blue would put two robots in front of Blue's goals (that Blue would normally be trying to score on) to guarantee that Red couldn't score for the Blue alliance.

sgreco 07-03-2010 18:42

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IKE (Post 932957)
Nope, Bongle is right. They are defending their own goals and thus 2 bots are allowed to hang out at home.

Yep, it is wierd, but correct.

I see. I misread it, but honestly I hope nobody ever does any of this. Regardless of how poorly written the rules are, or what the intent is for cooperating, I hope teams don't manipulate the rules to this extreme. My team has yet to decide on exactly how to play, but we're probably just going to try to win, avoid penalties, and make sure our opponent doesn't get shut out. We're going to play to win straight up, but gear our strategy slightly more offensively rather than defensively.

"working together" in quals isn't something I want to do; it eliminates the competitive fire from both sides, and frankly it just takes the fun out of it. Limiting competition limits the leaning experience. It's a shame that the rules are aimed at preventing a hard fought competition, because that's what's fun, and realistically, that's what the real world is like. Fluffing things over to help the losers feel better doesn't benefit anyone in the long run. I'll be honest, my team's performance left much to be desired last year. I didn't need people saying "oh well at least you tried" or have a skewed ranking system to help us. The best way to deal with it is to come in last. You can't learn unless you fail first.

Valkyrie133 07-03-2010 20:13

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sgreco (Post 933042)
I misread it, but honestly I hope nobody ever does any of this. Regardless of how poorly written the rules are, or what the intent is for cooperating, I hope teams don't manipulate the rules to this extreme.

Too late to hope nobody ever does it - it's already been done, and I expect it will continue to be done as long as it's a good way to get seeding points.

Teams are not "manipulating" the rules by using this strategy. They are using the rules exactly as written. If that results in matches with no competition, then the RULES need fixing, not the strategy.

Ether 07-03-2010 20:18

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie133 (Post 933120)
Teams are not "manipulating" the rules by using this strategy. They are using the rules exactly as written. If that results in matches with no competition, then the RULES need fixing, not the strategy.

ditto that.


~

sgreco 07-03-2010 20:55

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie133 (Post 933120)
Too late to hope nobody ever does it - it's already been done, and I expect it will continue to be done as long as it's a good way to get seeding points.

Teams are not "manipulating" the rules by using this strategy. They are using the rules exactly as written. If that results in matches with no competition, then the RULES need fixing, not the strategy.

I understand that, but the point of a competition is to compete. So the rules must have been phrased poorly such that teams are playing a match, but yet not competing against each other. FIRST is a competition for a reason; I hope the competition part doesn't get lost in the future because FIRST is far better than a science fair.

Valkyrie133 07-03-2010 21:14

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sgreco (Post 933162)
So the rules must have been phrased poorly such that teams are playing a match, but yet not competing against each other. FIRST is a competition for a reason; I hope the competition part doesn't get lost in the future because FIRST is far better than a science fair.

I think "phrased poorly" is a tactful way to say it. :p I agree that FIRST is a competition for a reason, and I also hope the competition part doesn't get lost. Unfortunately, the way the rules are written, that's exactly what can happen.

Alan Anderson 07-03-2010 23:54

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sgreco (Post 932117)
What was wrong with the old days when the teams that won got the best seeds? What part of earning your seeding position isn't fair?

There aren't enough matches to make the "best" teams seed the highest with a strict win/lose tally. This year's scheme seems to be compensating somewhat for things like winning easy matches vs. losing hard ones.

So many people are saying it's better to lose 0-5 than to win 3-0...but it's better yet to win 3-2. A 6v0 game where everyone gets the same number of seeding points doesn't benefit anyone; nobody rises or falls in the ranking. A game-theory analysis tells me that the best overall strategy is to score points and play to win.

Herodotus 08-03-2010 00:16

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Valkyrie133 (Post 933120)
Teams are not "manipulating" the rules by using this strategy. They are using the rules exactly as written. If that results in matches with no competition, then the RULES need fixing, not the strategy.

So as long as things are done within the law, it's all peachy? It's acceptable to exploit the law to your full advantage, regardless of how that affects other people? I think it's more then the rules that need fixing if people are willing to ignore the rest of the game just to get those seeding points.

As for how to change the rules to prevent exploitation, I would simply give the winning team the combined score and the losing team half of that. The higher the scores the better it is for both teams, but you also want to win as it will give you many more points then losing.

Ether 08-03-2010 00:32

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Herodotus (Post 933369)
So as long as things are done within the law, it's all peachy? It's acceptable to exploit the law to your full advantage, regardless of how that affects other people? I think it's more then the rules that need fixing if people are willing to ignore the rest of the game just to get those seeding points.

The game rules define the game. Teams who read and understand the game rules and plan their game strategy accordingly are playing the game.

Just like NFL head coaches who call a timeout to "ice" the opposing team's kicker.

If you don't like the game, change the rules.


~

Herodotus 08-03-2010 00:36

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ether (Post 933382)
The game rules define the game. Teams who read and understand the game rules and plan their game strategy accordingly are playing the game.

Just like NFL head coaches who call a timeout to "ice" the opposing team's kicker.

If you don't like the game, change the rules.


~

FIRST is something more then a game, it's also a learning experience for young kids. I was always under the impression that FIRST was as much an analogue for life as it was for other sports, and teaching kids to exploit the law can be just as detrimental as leaving the law exploitable. Both things need to change.

Ed Law 08-03-2010 00:52

Re: Ranking
 
I don't know if other teams realize that seeding points are only important for the top 8-12 teams to become alliance captains. If you are not an alliance captain, high seeding scores will not mean anything at all. We did not pick based on ranking that use seeding points.

So for teams that are ranked in the 20s and below and it is close to the end of the qualifying rounds, why sit in front of your goal to get meaningless seeding points. Go and fight hard and show other teams and spectators why you spend so many hours building that robot. Why pay $5000 and all the late nights to just sit in front of your goals?

We don't care about seeding points. If you can play the game well and fight hard to win even when you are behind, other teams will notice and pick you to play in the elimination round.

Sportsmanship is about trying your best and give your opponent a good honest match. Winning or losing is not important as long as you try hard. That is what I teach my students so I will never agree to play this scheme. However I do not think it is un-GP, I just don't want any part of it.

Ether 08-03-2010 01:11

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

teaching kids to exploit the law
We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Reading and understanding a set of rules for a game and forming a winning strategy based on those rules is not "teaching kids to exploit the law". It's teaching them how to think and compete.


~

davidfv 08-03-2010 01:19

Re: Ranking
 
1 Attachment(s)
Just to let people see how a regional could work with the seeding points, we put this ranking simulation together in the beginning of the year. We are pretty sure it is correct. If you find it in error, let me know. It is a good training to help with understanding the seeding system.

The workbook contains two sheets, matches and Rankings:
Matches
Initial Matches were set up with a 57 team regional and 8 matches
Penalties
Random Number between 0 to 5
Score
Random Number between 0 to 10

To Run Simulation is a two step process
Matches Worksheet:
To obtain a random penalty and Score press control+= on the Matches Worksheet
Rankings Worksheet:
To obtain the rankings, prese (ctrl+shft+z) on the Rankings Worksheet to run the macro.
This macro will tally the wins, losses and ties
Will calculate seeding points and coopertition bonus
Add the qualification seeding and sort based on the total qualification points

Match played:
On the ranking sheet, it shows each match the team played to review the scores

The visual basic Macro simply searches through the scores and tally's wins/losses, and calculates seeding points and coopertition (TM) bonus. Hope it helps.

Ross 08-03-2010 08:40

Re: Ranking
 
We just came back from Granite State, and came in last place.
Going into the competition I thought the seeding points were confusing but other then that didnt have much of a problem with it.

Then getting to competition and seeing how things worked i stated to have a problem. I understood that the algorithm was there to not promote a blow out match (9-0) or something, but when it came to our matches all them were low scoring (1-0). Which meant that even though we were winning the majority of our matches and were the only robot that scored in the match we ended up being seeded last place. Even ones we lost were 0-1 matches which meant that we had no chance of seeding high.

The algorithm works if you have higher scoring matches but not if it is low scoring. I understand the having a winning record is not important but our matches were in coopertition spirit i.e. close in score but because it was so low we ended up getting no seeding points. So here the algorithm worked against us. 9 out of our 10 matches were 0-1 whether we won or lost. Thus we were in last place.

Chris is me 08-03-2010 10:30

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ether (Post 933382)
Just like NFL head coaches who call a timeout to "ice" the opposing team's kicker.

This isn't a bad FIRST strategy either, actually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgreco (Post 933162)
I understand that, but the point of a competition is to compete. So the rules must have been phrased poorly such that teams are playing a match, but yet not competing against each other. FIRST is a competition for a reason; I hope the competition part doesn't get lost in the future because FIRST is far better than a science fair.

So someone needs to tell me what the point of a coopertition is... :rolleyes:

(I'm a little confused how "coopertition" is defined as "scoring for your opponents, when if you cooperpete correctly they gain NOTHING from being scored on and only from you scoring on yourself. That's stupid)

Dmentor 08-03-2010 13:56

Re: Ranking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 933544)
So someone needs to tell me what the point of a coopertition is... :rolleyes:

(I'm a little confused how "coopertition" is defined as "scoring for your opponents, when if you cooperpete correctly they gain NOTHING from being scored on and only from you scoring on yourself. That's stupid)

You're not alone; I'm confused too. According to the FIRST website:

Quote:

Coopertition means competing always, but assisting and enabling others when you can.
In Breakaway how do you both compete and assist/enable? If both teams are trying to do their best to win, then they are competing but not cooperating. If both teams are trying to maximize seeding points and cooperate together to score for one team or tie, then they aren't competing and besides get no coopertition points. If both teams are trying to win and one team gets an "insurmountable" lead and starts scoring on themselves then I don't see this as cooperation either since the losing team gets no benefit. In fact the losing team should probably switch to scoring for the winning team. Talk about messed up - both teams scoring on themselves in order to advance their seeding. :ahh:

keericks 08-03-2010 14:54

Re: Ranking
 
<soapbox>
As I reflect on the numerous threads & posts flooding CD on this topic, I find myself wanting to comment on the greater objective/direction that this year's "seeding system" is promoting. Aside from the strategies, rules, approaches, legal vs. ethical, and all the other ideas that have been discussed here, I would like draw the attention to what I feel is an alarmingly slippery slope FIRST seems to be approaching by engraining the "coopertition" concept into "competition" rules. A little background may help explain my position:

1. I've coached my 11th grade son's FLL/FRC teams since he was in the 4th grade. As a FIRST Operational Partner I've run one of the country's largest FLL State Championship tournaments for the past four years, that attract 750+ students and 85+ FLL teams to the California's Central Valley each year. I'm a huge fan and ambassador of FIRST and its impact on the youth in our communities.

2. At the 2006 World Festival, my FLL team won 1st place in the first ever FLL Alliance Challenge with the Ocean Odyssey missions, where we worked with 3 other teams from the U.S and Denmark - our first feel for true FIRST coopertition - (the Denmark team didn't even speak english) IT WAS AWESOME!

3. I've also coached every sport my 3 kids have been involved in from baseball, football, hockey, soccer, etc. - and have always appreciated the distinct differences a program like FLL/FRC brings to kids who gravitate away from traditional sporting programs - and the opportunities they find here.

So with all that said, I can tell you from my experiences that a large part of the attaction of FIRST is the packaging of learning (math/science/tech) WITH the excitment of COMPETITION that speaks to our innate competitive spirit that I believe drives the human race towards accomplishment, improvement, and connecting with others. And while I'm not wanting get all philosophical here, I can't help but feel this year's game philosophy is squelching this spirit AND forcefully directing our brightest minds into a "thinkset" that I feel is ultimately weakening us as a society/community.

It's been mentioned in other threads/posts how there are plenty of opportunties for coopertition off the competition field - and I agree 100%. I'm proud of how well this program promotes and practices it (this web site is a classic example) - our team would be lost without it! Even as we get onto the competition field - the alliance format allows for tons of cooperation! But let's cooperate to triumph over the opposition! What's wrong with that? Opposition is a force in life that we must all learn to deal with - and I've always felt that FIRST's approach of competing & dealing with opposition by THINKING & USING YOUR MIND was the perfect answer ... Not by removing the opposition and morphing it into cooperation. Opposition doesn't always WANT to cooperate, yes?

But I do fear FIRST is trying to change the face of competition ... as strong competition seems to be viewed more and more as a bad thing, so bad that we have to start changing the rules/game to MAKE SURE that we cooperate. I know I'm not alone in my thinking as I've seen others lightly comment on this elsewhere, but I want to put my stake in the ground and call a spade a spade. Let's not water-down honest competition that boasts "the thrill of victory, and the agony of defeat" - it is afterall what makes this program tick - and if you don't belive me, look at all the posts of how teams are trying to use the coopertition rules to - do what? WIN!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a proponent of win at all costs, and/or winning is the only important thing. However, "striving to win" in a gracious and professional manner brings with it amazing results ... many more than "striving to cooperate" will ever see. I'm sorry, but that's just weak.

I understand the lofty touchy-feely goal of everyone's a winner, but we don't live in a world where everyone's a winner, nor should we want to, IMO. In Pixar's movie, The Incredible's, the villian Syndrome wants to sell his super inventions to everyone in the world, giving everybody superpowers - "Because when everyone is super ... (evil laugh) no one will be!" Kind of corny, I know, but it speaks volumes.

However, not being a winner, doesn't mean you're a loser either. The FRC program and its outcomes are dealing with different degrees of success, yes? But it's the COMPETITION that creates the scale on which we measure those degrees. It's the COMPETITION that makes us want to move up those scales each and every time we COMPETE. It's the COMPETITION that makes us and everyone around us, better. You can't call something a competition, and then strip out all the elements that engage our competitive spirits. It's crushing, depressing, and outright frustrating.

So as I step off my soapbox, I just wanted to share my thoughts around the subject and hope they serve as a warning to FIRST and to join in solidarity with others that have spoken out against this new system and its inherent problems. My concerns may go deeper, because I'm so passionate about what this program has always been about, and I'm concerned about its future. But I suppose I could have justed posted the following:

Minimize Competitive Components = Minimize Growth & Attraction & Spirit

Force "coopertition" through rules/regulation = choke the competitive spirit that's made this program what it is

</soapbox>


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