Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

2-3-1 is not a winning record. You got ranked so low because there was almost no scoring for either alliance.

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

Oh by the way sorry to the teams we played defense for, didn't mean to cause harm.

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

Sorry not exactly at the end of the day towards the end, we had most of our matches late and close together. Didn't figure out the coopertition effect until late in the day. Thanks for pointing that out.

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

Fear not defensive bots! 1727 Was number 1 seed at DC, and this is how we chose our alliance. We chose no. 2 seed 3123 for their amazing offensive robot. Then when we needed to choose our defensive robot, we completely ignored the rankings and went to our scouting data. The top of our list was 176, because of their 6wd articulated traction wheel chassis. They turned out to be perfect for defending the goals due to their superior pushing power. They hadn't ranked as high due to their defensive playing. This alliance went on to win the eliminations!

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

I think it is fair to say that the GDC probably did not foresee all the possible ramifications of this seeding system. I understand and agree with the concept of coopertition, but when a win is a loss and a loss is a win, when poor robots rise to the top of the seeding, and when it becomes smart to forfeit matches and not play the game, the something is clearly wrong. I talked to both students and mentors this weekend that were discouraged that building a good robot meant less than knowing how to game the seeding system. If the cooperition factor is taken too far and begins to effect the participants' moral, or if FRC gains the reputation for being a league where being good doesn't really matter, then that is potenitally damaging ground for FRC.

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

It does not mean you win, but having the top pick of the draft is a big deal. It sets you up to win.

I don't see what the outrage is here. FIRST made the rules, we play with them. This is hardly a loophole. It was an expected outcome, that people began discussing on Chief mere hours after the rules were released.

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

But you won't know who is good and who is bad because no teams will have been challenged the way they will be in the finals. What's the point of picking if you have minimal criteria to judge by?

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

I agree with other posters that say the GDC set the game up and its not throwing the game, it's playing smart. It should lead to more scoring. But the one example of how someone can win 8-0 (or was it 6-0) with a 2 point penalty and lose the seeding points to the loser shows how important penalties are this year. They seem to be a much larger aspect of the game then in years past.

Any thoughts?

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

You will know who is good and who is bad. That's what scouting is for. The best robots are generally the ones that are driven the best and coached the best. The way you play the game doesn't change how well you drive your robot.

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

the whole point of the rule, that i see, is to keep the scores close. So teams arn't out there scoring 30-0.

Comparing to NFL. Yall are saying you should try to be last so you can get the first pick.

Why would anyone outside of FIRST, and really anyone in FIRST, want to watch any matches outside of Elims.? How could a student possibly explain to a parent that by them intentionally losing a match they can possibly "earn," term used very lightly, a spot in the finals. I liked the old ranking system, not sure why they changed it but I guarantee they didn't have this in mind when they set it up.

Play the game like it was meant to be played. Quit lawyering things. Win because you build the best possible robot you could, not because you cheated the system. You'd have to kick me off of being a driver cause there's no way I would ever intentionally lose any match. D-bots, play D. Show teams what you can do. THAT should be what earns you a spot in the finals.

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

If say I'm a D-bot and you're telling me NOT to play D. Then how on earth would any scout know that I am great at D? Explain that one to me please.

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

30-0 is good for both teams, perhaps even better for the losing team if there is a penalty on the winning team.

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

But how can you test driving and coaching if no one is playing defense? At the Granite State regional I saw teams that were prolific scorers break down completely with a big of defensive pressure in the finals. They would go from scoring 5-6 goals a match to 0, or 1 with any amount of defense.

There were other teams that dealt very well with the pressure and could generally still score several goals under pressure, like 1073 who was on the championship alliance. There were teams that knew when to transition depending on said defensive pressure, and there were some that clearly didn't handle it well and suffered blow-out losses in the finals.

Without competitive seeding matches these strengths and weaknesses will never come to light and the final matches will be a complete mess, probably with less capable teams in the top 8. The final matches should be the best, most capable, most competitive teams. Not teams that potentially coasted in because of a few penalties on other teams during co-op games.

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

I do agree, this is not a loophole, however I do not feel that any team will benefit from doing this.

How will you know which robots are driven and coached the best? You can see who is best at scoring for the other goal. Some people underestimate this, but I can tell you from experience that trying to aim at a goal next to you is not easy. It took me a while to get the aiming down in practice. Im not sure if a driver could make this transition fast enough to be an effective scorer in elims. Who is the best coached will not be known at all. The coach would not need to work on any in game strategy because they dont have anyone against them.

Re: Playing two different games this year?
 

Not always.
In San Diego, we chose 294 because they played a good defense. The disconnect between qualifying and elimination strategies does create a problem for defensive robots. Play your game and hurt your alliance's ranking or play for ranking and hurt your chance of being selected, if you don't make the top 8.