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Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)
-   General Forum (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
-   -   Do you like the seeding system? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83964)

ebarker 10-03-2010 19:08
Re: Do you like the seeding system?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madison (Post 935365)
Unfortunately, as far as I am aware, we cannot close the poll without also closing the thread.
Well if a programmer was running the show she would create a new thread on the same topic.

Post a final thread on the current topic with a link pointing to the new thread.

And then close the current thread.

Kinda like a jump or a goto or even like an 'exec' system call in linux.

We would then have 2 threads on the same topic. One pre 'now' and one post 'now'.

JackG 10-03-2010 19:10
Re: Do you like the seeding system?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madison (Post 935365)
Unfortunately, as far as I am aware, we cannot close the poll without also closing the thread.
Fine by me. This thread has served its purpose and its useful life is over.

metaltech 11-03-2010 00:50
Re: Do you like the seeding system?
 
Hmmmmmm. A rules change in the middle of the stream. Well, that will be good for all teams except those who could only afford to attend a Week 1 regional. Makes me wonder how much better we would have done under the updated rules. :mad: Sorry, I'm not feeling a lot of GP at the moment...

Daniel_LaFleur 11-03-2010 08:08
Re: Do you like the seeding system?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 935367)
Make 4/5ths of FIRST unhappy just so the 1/5th already unhappy can have company?
One of the things that made me truely love FIRST is that it is (was) completely fair in the fact that everyone had to play under the same rules and specifications, regardless of whether people liked the system or not.

... Thats not true anymore.

pilum40 11-03-2010 14:11
Re: Do you like the seeding system?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Reed (Post 932894)
No, I don't like this years system. It seems to be rather confusing to me as far as picking out the attributes necessary to make up a winning alliance.

It works in theory in that it should put a spotlight on offensive oriented teams, or teams that are playing GP and 'how the game is supposed to be played'.

I know some people don't like defense because it hinders the abilities of other teams and doesn't let the robots shine. In the past few years FIRST has tried to find ways to kill off the 'defensive juggernaut' style of play through various means, but as the time comes around on Saturday afternoon and the top 8 are making their picks defense still comes into play as a picking factor and sometimes it is very beneficial to the alliance, defense wins championships (we won a regional this way). In this system however playing defense in qualifiers becomes a lose-lose situation. You may attempt to play defense in qualifiers but you hinder your chances of moving up to be picked on Saturday afternoon.

This system is a two headed beast. On one side you have the qualifiers where you need to excel almost completely on your individual strengths to prove to be worthy of being picked by upping your ranking points and then on the other you have the elimination rounds where it no longer matters what the score is as long as your alliance has a one point lead. This has been achieved for years by picking a well rounded alliance of teams that complement your skill set and complement the skills needed to 'play the game how the GDC meant it to be', this includes playing heavy defense.

After only watching one webcast I have made the observation that this system almost hides every other attribute besides how well you can shoot the ball. It is a really fuzzy system of determining the true power of one robot or another in more than just offense. From a spectators point of view from one weekend it was really hard to really pick a favorite or determine the slightest hint of dominance and who was going to be in the #1 seed. The only way to see these things is going to be heavy duty scouting and for a event that is looking to haul in more spectators then ever this is not a good thing.

-One more thing that I just realized this system veils compared to a W-L-T system. As you go out to the field for qualification you have a certain alliance strategy in mind, if you completely disregard your teammates you have a high chance of ending up with a big fat loss on your record indicating you may not be a very good cooperative alliance partner on Saturday afternoon. Being stubborn this year is hidden because of a lack of a definitive WLT record.
Well.....as a rookie team coach, reading these negatories makes me a little nervous in the service. :eek: Our team worked on playing aggressively, keeping the opposition out the tunnels and from hanging, moving under the tunnels and more or less being a "sweeper", mostly defence with the ability to get "garbage goals" when available. Sounds like our thinking is sadly wrong if the system is that convoluted. Guess we'll find out next week. arrgh...thought we were though flying by the seat of our pants!:(

Rick Wagner 11-03-2010 16:13
Re: Do you like the seeding system?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by metaltech (Post 935513)
Hmmmmmm. A rules change in the middle of the stream. Well, that will be good for all teams except those who could only afford to attend a Week 1 regional. Makes me wonder how much better we would have done under the updated rules. :mad: Sorry, I'm not feeling a lot of GP at the moment...
If you have a good robot and drive team, you don't need to be seeded to win. You just need to have smart scouts on the seeded teams.

krudeboy51 11-03-2010 16:14
Re: Do you like the seeding system?
 
any one knows how to post a new post on chiefdelphi??

Daniel_LaFleur 11-03-2010 16:36
Re: Do you like the seeding system?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by krudeboy51 (Post 935715)
any one knows how to post a new post on chiefdelphi??
A new post ... you already did ;)

A new thread (which is what I assume you mean) ... click on the portal link on the orange navigation bar, then click on forums on the navagation bar (on the portal), then click on the forum you wish to add the new thread to, then click on the blue 'new thread' button at the top of that forum.

metaltech 11-03-2010 21:22
Re: Do you like the seeding system?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Wagner (Post 935714)
If you have a good robot and drive team, you don't need to be seeded to win. You just need to have smart scouts on the seeded teams.
Quite true. But, I wouldn't hang my hopes of making finals on assuming a top-8 seed would do their homework well enough to be aware of ALL the other teams. IOW, if you finish quals in the top 24 seeds, I think you have a WAY bigger chance of being on one of the 8 final alliances, than if you were 37th out of 60, for example. I don't think there is enough time to be intimately familiar with the entire field, so the top 8 seeds are likely to first look at the other top 15-20 to form their alliance, and perhaps wouldn't even consider a team in the bottom half of the standings, even if they do have a god bot and driver.

(I'm coming from a point of view that surely won't apply to all teams. We have only 10 students, so we just don't have many bodies to scout very well. It's challenge enough to check the machine after each match, work on improvements or repairs, revise software, etc. to be ready for the next match.)

Ether 17-03-2010 12:57
Re: Do you like the seeding system?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilum40 (Post 935675)
Well.....as a rookie team coach, reading these negatories makes me a little nervous in the service. :eek: Our team worked on playing aggressively, keeping the opposition out the tunnels and from hanging, moving under the tunnels and more or less being a "sweeper", mostly defence with the ability to get "garbage goals" when available. Sounds like our thinking is sadly wrong if the system is that convoluted. Guess we'll find out next week. arrgh...thought we were though flying by the seat of our pants!:(
Here's a link to a seed-point calculator, so you can play "what if" to find out what the seeding points would be. May give some useful insight:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...19&postcount=1


~

hektormagee 17-03-2010 20:26
Re: Do you like the seeding system?
 
My gripe with the scoring system is how a team could score on themselves, score none for themselves, and with a score of 12-0 get just as many qualification points as the team that got the 12. I am happy about, however, that the winning team gets an immediate 5 points added to their score.

Tom Line 17-03-2010 22:47
Re: Do you like the seeding system?
 
I have a gripe about the system too.

In one case, we watched a robot on an alliance "turn" on their alliance partners. They intentionally started feeding balls to the other team. They did this because they were very close to moving up in the standings and one good seedings score would get it for them.

Through the whole thing, I watched the two somewhat functional bots do the best the could for their team, while the one really good bot proceeded to literally hand the game to other guys, just to up their ranking.

It made me very upset and pretty much highlighted what is wrong with this whole system. There should never, EVER be a reason that you're helping the OTHER team win. Period. I don't care if you call it strategy, or smart play. It destroys the spirit of the game.

(Not to mention hurting the two semi-functional bots hopes to make it to the State Championship, which is based on win/loss).


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