Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Wanted to start this up so people could post as the competition progresses

So what have we learned this year from Breakaway? Anything interesting to showcase such as interesting mechanisms, ball control, or end games? New up and coming Teams? Comments on the game itself? Any displays of Gracious Professionalism? Anything random you feel compelled to post?

PLEASE KEEP THIS THREAD CONSTRUCTIVE ON THE GAME ITSELF OR THIS YEAR OF FRC, IF YOU WANT TO RANT ON THE SCORING SYSTEM OR THE PENALTIES GO HERE

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Durability. It's different this year from years past; if you undertook basic design wisdom, your robot is probably safe from most aggression from other robots. This is no guarantee that you're safe from the field.

It took most of the Bayou regional for our two teams to find all the little things that fall apart when you go banzai over these bumps. If you've got a practice robot or used the withholding allowance to keep your drivetrain and you haven't built a bump, follow these steps:

Step 1: Build a bump. Go ahead, throw the carpet on it; reasonably close rugs can be had for $20 at Walmart.
Step 2: Run your robot over the bumps three ways:


This will shake out something that you didn't have to strap down quite as tight in years past. Fix it now rather than later.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Dude, let me Second that statement. The day we went to the practice field in Ashland, we saw some great robots drop everything from nut and bolts to their modem. We also saw a great tank drive bend a 1/4" Al axle 20 degrees going over the bump...

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Third! A photographer on team 134 captured some amazing shots in the final matches. In one, our robot is on its side while they are touching the entire underside of our robot. In another (and several other times in the finals) our two robots went head to head resulting in both robots going airborne in a V formation. Thankfully no serious damage was done to either robots except for a sensor coming out.

Also, ensure all major connections are in before matches. Our team lost power to the radio in a qualification match and team 1058 also lost cable connection in qual. matches due to a bumpy ride. Solution: zipties. Our team took 3 zipties (one small around the power connector and 2 large to stretch around the radio) to keep the power cable in place. Will not come out without a pair of angle cutters! ;)

Good luck teams!

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

I also agree with the statements about durability. During one match we lost 4 meccanum rollers and many washers and bolts onto the field.
And by the time the finals rolled around all except for one of the 8 standoffs that help our electronics board on had fallen off. The board was held with mostly parachute cord.

Also- if you are running large wheels to get over the bump, put some sort of guard infront of your wheels that will contact the ball. Many robots, including our own were having trouble with "running over" the balls. It is also very difficult to move the ball along the wall and into the goal in your homezone without a wheel guard.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Comp-team.
Highlight all the penalties in the rule book, and do your best not to do them. I can understand driving up on a ball especially when going over a blind bump. Penalties are the make/break point for low scoring matches. Keep it clean.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

This is the best advice for the upcoming regionals. Team 422 got into 2nd place in the standings by not receiving any penalties. In our last match of day one, the ball return penalty took a glaring loss for us into a 22-point gain in the standings. We never left the top eight on day two by playing methodical, penalty-free ball. We won two of our elimination games off of penalties.

Another tip is to "topple-proof" a bot. They ended up on their sides often. Our elimination alliance had our bot, which had a net preventing a tip, 2016's climber could be tilted to the side to push the bot upright, and 816 was tunnnel-capable and close to the ground. This advice is a little late, but it's something to keep in mind if you want to edit your bot for your regional.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

In addition to the talk about penalties, there was a 71 point penalty, a 22 point penalty, and a 14 point penalty in New Jersey. Most, if not all, of the penalties were because balls were not returned in time. Big ones come from balls falling off before the photo-gate, or human players not realizing there was a ball scored. That is a lethal penalty that can wipe out a score no matter how big.

Another penalty that came up multiple times; the 3 inch ball violation. Make sure that you edit your robot so it will not roll over a ball. It happens very often when a robot rolls up the goal ramp while possessing a ball.

Just a warning to watch out for.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Going along with the warning about ball return penalties--make sure that, when you reach for the ball, you are not reaching too early. If you reach in before the ball has fully cleared both sensors, your hand might trigger the sensor, causing the field to think that another ball has been scored and expecting it to be returned.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Wheel guards are a good idea to not run over soccer balls.

Trying to do two conflicting things well will result in you ending up not being able to do both at all.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

4th! Before ship, we were literally flipping our robot over and letting it hit the ground as hard as it could, then checking what did and did not hold together, fixing what didn't, and then doing it again.

And again.

And again...

During the FLR, we popped a chain twice, had a set screw fail on us, and had to reweld our kicker (after it got pulverized by a bump)... That's it.

----------

We also learned that controlling the mid-field is controlling the game, and that ball starvation + hanging is the ideal strategy for winning games.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

I'll fifth Billfred's sentiments. A single loose nut cost us a Yellow Card and thus the semifinals in DC. We thought we'd worked everything out long before then, yet some things take a LONG time to come up.

The coach, if he/she is tall, can see nearly every ball on the field. The far-zone balls reflect off of the diamond plate on the other side of the field, giving a pretty good estimation of where the ball is. Using the tape on the carpet to guide the driver to it is how we got an easy shutout in our QF1. The bumps are only in 4ft segments, and the carpet is taped in between each segment.

Losing a week of build to snow means nothing. We seem to do better at our first regional in the years we lose a week to snow.

The AM toughbox nano's standard gear ratio, direct-driven to 6" wheels, is plenty fast for this year's game. Speaking of, our Nano's (hex) held up to the unscrupulous beating they took while going over the bumps and taking a hard hit on the other side ... cantilevered :ahh:!. This is the 2nd year we've supported 150lbs through cantilevered AM toughboxes and we can now testify that AM doesn't call them "toughbox" for nothing. We did have to add the washers to the inside of the Nano's so the output shaft bearing wouldn't slip. We also burned each motor/transmission combo in for 30 minutes with plenty of lithium grease.

Center of Gravity is HUGE this year. It was fun to see all of the wheelies on Thursday (1024 slamming it full forward and popping one on purpose was hilarious). I didn't see a single drive train with the naturally-articulating 2-wheel pods (8 total wheels) tip.

Teams who stuck with the 'fast' version of the KOP drive train and have the simplest kicker with good drivers have a GOOD chance of teaming with a complex robot and making it to Atlanta. That team is the offensive zone robot and nothing else; let the complex robots handle the mid-field battle and hanging.

This year it is imperative to not give up, not one bit! Keep fighting to move balls towards your zone, mindful of the penalties. Additionally, don't take too long to line up that long-field shot -- just get it down there!

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

For the show, that's roughly 8 feet per second on a non-mecanum drive. I know my team was planning on a 12FPS configuration using 6 motors, but a few tests showed that 8FPS was plenty fast for a driver that hadn't tackled carpet before. With the bumps less than 24 feet apart, being able to get across 2 zones in 4 seconds would be nice but I think that's definitely not integral this year :)

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

all agreed.... i think watching this match will show you what durability means.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbklr2IPDmw

Team 2016 (our team) and 25 took it to the maximum limit possible without getting penalized.

It was brutal it was harsh and it was fun...

(we destroyed two drive modules on team 25, we found out later).....

durability means everything in this years game, being on the field and functioning 100% of the team.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Hilarious, like watching brothers and sisters fight ;) What was even better was the robots from the other zones coming in to swoop up balls while you guys were battling.

Great clip, thanks for sharing.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Actually the gear ratio gives ~11.5 fps before losses. The direct drive and burn in process make it VERY efficient, so I'd say we were hitting 9.5-10fps.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

actually we would rather be shooting balls into the goals but 2016 had other ideas!!!

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

HAHAH where have I seen that before? http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/35102?

If we get some video of it, it will look so similar! Nice job 25 and 2016!

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Watching that match, I am not sure the refs were counting the 6 feet off for 3 seconds rule. At one point the ref was counting (with the hand like in wrestling or basketball back court violations), but stopped after 2016 backed away... but that was it. Interesting.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

One thing I learned at the DC regional is that soccer balls like to go inside robots a lot more than anyone had anticipated. that penalty must have been called over 200 times. I would suggest teams make sure they have good ball gaurds.

Penalties make a big difference this year.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Good point but most of the time it was for robots driving on top of the ball... at least at NJ that was the case. They fixed the rule so that the ball can intrude more than 3 inches accidentally, but you must try and fix it before continuing to play... Update 16

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Hey Guys

our regional is next week and i was wondering if any of the teams use their camera during competion or the gyro.

Please let me know

Thank You.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

There were a handful of teams using the Camera in Various Capacities at NJ.

Most of these just had the Camera Feeding to the Driver's Station, but a few teams were able to use them for camera assisted autonomous scoring.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Our team uses the camera to line up the suction cup and balls. It is aimed down in the front of the robot so it helps the drivers get balls in tough spots. We also use the gyro in our autonomous.


Good luck next week!

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

We do. In both autonomous and teleop. We have a camera assisted shooting mechanism.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

When driving over the bumps be careful, there is a chance to lose connection if the robot hits the bump just right. >.<

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

We used cable ties between our wheel pylons, and got one ball penalty all regional (for driving over a ball against a hump that our driver didn't even see).

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Well, I agree with that, but not just the bump, but any major contact anywhere on the field could result in a failure of some sort.

What I think everyone has really seemed to have an eye on though is the bumps, and seeing some go under, some over, it seems that there is an attempt by almost everyone to get to a different zone. I think the bumps of Breakaway are a scare factor in the game as well, as that we all don't want to go up one side alive, and down either side dead (kinda like climbing a mountain). I think FIRST was trying to make us think, whats really worth attempting in a 2 minute, 15 second game. Now don't take my thought the wrong way, I definitely believe that the bump is not the worse thing that could be placed on a field to be tackled by robots, but it also forces some teams to think small and compact for the tunnel which can be easily blocked accidentally or on purpose. So yes, Breakaway has some scare factors in it as well as last year (Lunacy and the trailers and little traction), as most likely for years to come. Keep you eyes on the bumps though, they can definitively make or break a game and/or a robot.

-Tom H

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

That's why we played 'robot-tipping' before we shipped. We knew it was going to be rough!

That said, while our robot *can* climb over the humps, we never had to at the FLR. We sat in our comfy little middle zone and did our job very well, and trusted the other robots to do theirs.

Cooperation is key to winning this game!

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

One thing I forgot to mention is that this year it's especially important for teams to Clean the Mecanum Wheel Rollers! at least every other match. The difference was like night and day in determining whether or not we could traverse the bump. Rubbing alcohol or isopropyl swabs found in most first aid kits do the trick very nicely and won't kill electronics if a drop is spilled on them.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

Interesting, does this give more friction? I can't imagine much of a difference on a rough surface like carpet...

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

I know one of our rookies was having trouble with climbing the humps -- their mecanum wheels (AM 6") were covered with blackish gunk. They kept roughing them up with sandpaper between matches.

We didn't have the same problem, but we never actually left the middle zone throughout the FLR, so I'm not sure if it would have any big effect on ours. I have no idea where the blankish gunk came from, but they seemed to have more of it than we did.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

What I find interesting, is at kickoff there always seems to be a sort of exasperated sigh when the game comes out especially this year. But now that seasons comes around I love how everyone cant wait. Every year i've been apart of it there some griping about the game for a while but then they start to love it. It's almost as if FIRST plans that. Other than the fact that it really is a low scoring game I like it as all other games. It may not be as extravagant but it is still just as fun to be apart of.

Re: Breakaway in review: what have we learned?
 

The black goo is very slippery on the carpet, so slippery that we were spinning the wheels under full acceleration from a dead stop. We had at solid film of it on our wheels before we discovered it. It's the gray 6" & 8" AM rollers, not the black ones that are exclusive to the old 8" AM mecanums.