Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

Here is the thing - in Elimination matches, 6v0 is thrown right out the window.

Here is the other thing - First Seed could build an Alliance of themselves, the second to last ranked team, and the last ranked team and still win the competition - As long as the two teams a seeded team picked can do the job of scoring more then any other robot alliance combination on the field, then whatever you were ranked means nothing. Ranking could hurt you more then help you. This is something I discovered in my first year of FRC.

It doesn't matter what your seed is, if you want to be a part of a winning alliance, you need to prove that you can win games, not win 6v0.

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

Folks,

I you were playing football, soccer or any other game that monotonicly rewards running up a higher score than your opponent, and that only rewards that strategy, then I would agree with statements like this one or with assertioins about "The spirit of the game"; but that is not this situation.

If you want to win the on-the-field competition, look at this tournament's rules - all of them - then do the math and maximize your chances of taking home a Tournament Champions trophy. Don't interject rules that simply aren't there.

I urge you to do that do that in the context of maximizing your chances to earn a Chairman's award, and to also avoid any notions of having to use "proper" or "correct" strategies that are not derived from THIS game's/tournament's rules. Do your best to do well in this tournament. Accomplishing that might require strategies that would be simply foolish in other tournements.

You aren't playing those other games right now, and sometimes the hallowed notions of those games don't apply to FIRST games/tournaments. All games and tournaments are not alike.

Blake
PS: I was growing tired of those green dots :)

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

I may just be hard-headed on this issue, but I really don't know how I'd be able to sleep that night after throwing a match. Sure, scoring for an opponent(though I don't like it) I could live with. But throwing a match isn't something I'd be willing to do. I realize that sometimes giving up is the smart thing to do, but its just not in me. At least not in this regard. I guess what I'm saying is that the rules may not be in the manual depending how you read them, but they are still there. They are there because of the way we are pre-conditioned through society. I guess I'm just not smart enough to overcome this one.

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

What the heck are you talking about while also quoting me?????

Don't insert statements, opinions or assertions into what I wrote that simply aren't there - What does throwing a match or giving up have to do with any single thing I wrote? - What vague and nebulous rules that are not written in THIS tournament/game's rulebook are you referring to?

If you are going to quote me, please just focus on what I what I wrote. If winning the tournament is your goal, I advocated doing your best to win the tournament. No where in that idea is there room for "throwing a match", and no where in the suggestioin to follow a contest's published rules in order to maximize your chances of winning the contest will you find the notion of "throwing a match".

Don't trot out that old canard - It simply does not apply.

Blake

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

I read what you posted just as it says. This is the part I was referring to in particular:
One of such strategies would be a 6vs0 match which has been discussed clearly on this forum. It is certainly "maximizing your chances"...but just goes against the rules ingrained into us. I'm not referring to constraints of the game. They are very clear. I'm referring to the constraints we place upon ourselves. I see 6vs0 as throwing a match and thus use them synonamously.

I make the same request as you. Take my words at face value. I didn't implicate you in any form of a crime as you seem to believe. We just see things differently. Let's discuss it civilly rather then being outraged over misunderstandings.

Jason

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

I remain as irritated as when I wrote the previous reply.

I think part of the intent of your original reply was to say that I was urging teams to "throw" matches.

I bristle because saying a team or person "threw a game" is an accusation of cheating/wrongdoing. I don't believe I urged anyone to cheat or to give anything other than 110% of their best effort toward winning a Breakaway tournament.

If purposefully playing a 6v0 match is throwing a Breakaway tournament, then intentionally walking a batter must be throwing a baseball game. Both can appear counterintuitive in the short run, but both can be exactly the right thing to do in the long run.

Blake
PS: I'll bet that winning tournaments has been ingrained in both of us, and that both of us would be properly upset if someone said we were urging teams to be deceitful or cheat. That "Throw a game" term is the sort of phrase that I think of as fightin' words. It must not be allowed to stick in contexts where it does not apply.

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

6v0 isn't throwing the tournament. It is throwing a single game. If it helps you in the overall tournament and your ok doing it, go for it. I won't stop you. And I won't judge you for doing it. I also don't see it as being deceitful or cheating. 6vs0 is only deceitful if you deny it when asked about it. It should be painfully clear to everyone involved what is happening. As for cheating, I really don't think that applies either. It just doesn't settle with me. I'm not accusing you of wrongdoing. Far from it, I think it is a creative strategy that people should be free to use. Just don't expect everyone to be open to doing it. Some of us are just stubborn about these sort of things.

PS: I also get annoyed when someone walks a batter or runs down the clock in a game. Both acceptable, but I wouldn't do either. Nobody thinks its cheating, I just couldn't feel right doing it.

I apologize for the strong wording, but I stand behind every thought that was presented.

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

The stated objective of a baseball game according to the MLB rules is:
Walking a batter is a strategy used within the game to attempt to achieve the game's stated objective.

The stated objective of a game of Breakaway is:
6v0 does not accomplish or help accomplish that objective. Choosing to attempt a 6v0 match is in fact a decision to not attempt to achieve the stated objective of the game, which would seem to me to be exactly what "throwing a game" is.

Personally I will not be offended, or look any differently at an opponent who chooses to use this tactic, but our team will be trying to win every match, no matter how bleak the outlook.

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

OK - So if you want to win games you do that by Now, on the other hand, if you want to win tournaments (become the event Champions) you do it through this process:
With me so far? - I know I am stating the obvious.

Now let's check which of these is celebrated.

Hmmm, I can't find a won-lots-of-matches award for teams to earn at an event, but I can find a Champion award and a Finalist Award; and I can find a Highest Rookie Seed award. the path to all three of these awards seems to have more to do with Seeding points and Coopertition bonus than with Win/Loss stats.

So, enjoy winning games if that is what floats your boat, and enjoy trying to win the tournament if that is what floats your boat; but please don't use the phrase "Throwing a ___" to describe either circumstance.

People playing to win every match when their team is unable to do so well enough to win the tournament can be accused of "Throwing the tournament" just as easily as people playing to win the tournament can be accused of "Throwing a match". My point isn't that both statements would be equally right; my point is that both would be equally wrong.

Again, if you are playing baseball, soccer, bowling or similar games, I have never heard of a reason to purposefully lose a game that matters to the team's post-season play. But we aren't playing those games. We are playing Breakaway games during an FRC tournament.

I recommend banishing the phrase "Throwing a match" from the lexicon we use to describe the 6v0 strategy, and any related strategies. It was that phrase that got my dander up.

Blake
PS: I think Molten and I are on the same page or are close enough - I hope that is true for other readers too.
PPS: Vikes - You and I can reach a meeting of the minds if you are willing to join me in asserting that mid- and low-level teams attempting to win every match (and predictably failing to do so) are "Throwing the tournament"; or (preferably) join me in asserting that using 6v0 is not "throwing" anything.

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

Unfortunately, I will not agree to either assertion. I don't see how going into a match with no intent on attempting to achieve a higher score than your opponent (the stated objective) is any different from going into a game in any other sporting event with no intent on winning. Using the same vernacular to describe both events seems perfectly appropriate to me. I understand that by throwing the match you may be improving your chances at earning a higher seed, but a basketball team may improve their chances at a better draft pick by intentionally losing games and we still say that they are "tanking" or "throwing games".

The GDC expressed clearly in Update 16 that their intent is for teams to try to win matches:
I have no ill will for teams that attempt to maximize their seeding score through strategic use of a 6v0 approach; their actions are completely legal and within the rules of the game. On the other hand, I will be behind the glass trying to help my drivers win every match (in a way that will maximize Seeding Points).

If that outcome of a given match were guaranteed before the match took place, perhaps I could be persuaded to agree with your "throwing the tournament" assertion, but fortunately it is not. Any alliance has at least some chance of winning a given match.

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

I have been following this discussion for quite a while, but have refrained from saying anything, largely because this is an important discussion, and a coherent response hadn't gelled in my mind.

My team discussed the strategy of scoring for our opponents early on, though not seriously. We talk about scoring for the other alliance most years, as a way to keep the score close or to avoid a skunk. We also conclude every year that we are going to try and win every single match we play. We build our robot the best we can to win matches. Some years we don't get there. Other years we preform pretty darn well. We haven't competed yet this year, so we don't know for sure what kind of robot is going to take the field. We do know, however, that even if we have the saddest robot in Texas, we don't want anyone scoring points for us. The only thing worse than loosing a match, is having someone LET you win. That is the lowest form of respect you can ever show an opponent and we flat out refuse to disrespect our opponents. Conversely we refuse to be disrespected and will actively block all attempts to do so.

A rose is a rose, and throwing a match is throwing a match. Before the update there were some arguments that perhaps the 6 v 0 strategy was part of the master GDC plan so therefore an easier pill to swallow. I was skeptical, and it turns out throwing a match is not, in fact, part of the spirit of the game. If your team chooses that route then proudly state you are throwing a match in order to maximize seeding points. Or would you prefer to call it rigging a match? Whatever you call it, don't get mad if other people call it for what it is. If the term "throwing a game" is upsetting, perhaps "playing to win a game" should be your only strategy.

If your argument is that your team plays to maximize seeding points, regardless of the outcome of the match, more power to you. As long as you are also playing to win the match, you are welcome in our alliance. Otherwise we may have a problem.

It's all fine and good to adopt a strategy that wins you a high seed for tournament selection but is it really true that maximizing seed points should be the goal at any cost? That appears to be the argument for those still advocating the 6 v 0 strategy. I truly don't think that is the spirit or intent of coopertition.

Team 1480 Robatos Locos has a number of slogans:
"Slow is fast"
"If we're going down, let's go down swinging"
"Respect"

If you want to employ the 6v0 strategy during one of our matches, then we RESPECTFULLY decline.

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

I really don't think I can define the strategy in any other way. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Hope there are no hard feelings.

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

While I disagree with the blanket attitude of always trying to win your matches (certainly you should aim to win most of the time), I can appreciate the sentiment. However, for those who advocae always try to win matches I'm curious as to whether the sentiment is immutable; is this just the attitude entering a match or is there no point during a match in which you would be willing to concede the match?

If a team is interested in seeding points and has the ability to score on itself (I don't advocate concession if you can't advance the cause), it would be pragmatic under some circumstances to throw in the towel and maximize their seeding points. Of course it depends on the robots capabilities, but I imagine a defecit of 8 points with a minute to play is a pretty large hole for most alliances to get out of (especially considering that the defecit is already 8 points after a minute).

For teams that are willing to concede, where is this point in which you are willing to concede? Is it a flat score (a defecit of 8), a defecit-time curve (must score every 8 seconds to win)?

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

In the NFL last year, the Colts rested starters after they locked up the best record in the league. This caused them to lose their last two games of the season. It then helped them in the long run (playoffs), because everyone was healthy.

That's a closer analogy to 6v0.



About 10 years ago, the NHL didn't like teams playing for ties in overtime. So, they changed the rules such that you the same number of points whether you tied or whether you lost in overtime, and you got additional points if you won in overtime. That seems equivalent to the change the GDC made. I don't really follow Hockey, but presumably that wasn't enough for the NHL and a few years ago they got rid of ties altogether and now go to shootouts after overtime. It took years for the NHL to make those changes, and the GDC only has a few weeks of play-time for each game.

Re: The Update, it fixes nothing! (AKA: why is everyone so excited about Update #16?)
 

This was a very controversial decision among both fans and players. Peyton Manning could clearly be seen pacing the sideline and never had his helmet further than his hand, typically a pulled starter will store their helmet and don a baseball cap.