Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

As long as one of them didn't mind getting a red card for their efforts.

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

Not if they're still on the bump.

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

Then their rebounding surface would be above 469's chute outlet.

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

I propose that the rules be changed by the GDC to allow expansion of robot when in contact with EITHER TOWER.
This levels (or should we say ELEVATES) the playing field.
The 469 scheme effectively allows ONLY THEM to operate within an expanded (vertically) playing field, where no opponent can reach to defend or contest with them for the returning balls. Because they can lock into this position effectively and expand mechanisms into a game critical zone, while their opponents aren't allowed to expand to their size at this critical spot on the field, and because the single defending bot in their scoring zone can't defend two goals as fast as they can switch between which goal they target, it is near impossible to effectively counter this strategy.

I don't see any reasons why letting bots expand while touching opponents towers would cause any real problems, but it would certainly help to eliminated the one-sided advantage that 469 has shown is possible using this looping scheme in the well executed way that they have accomplished it.
-Dick Ledford

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

So let me get this right. You want the GDC to change the rules because 469 has built an efficient robot that scores in droves, is legal, and that you cannot figure out how to stop.

Do I have that right?

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

No,change it because the rules currently allow an "exploit" that gives certain bot designs an unfair advantage to a degree that effectively undermines the possibility for matches to remain competitive.
What was the purpose of disallowing robots from expanding at opponent's tower? What benefit to the game's competition level does this give?
Why should there be ANY LOCATION on or above the field that NOT EVEN A SINGLE ROBOT from an opposing team can access without a penalty. The fact that this forbidden zone is at such a ball controlling critical spot makes it essential that the No Expand at opponents tower rule be rescinded. Then we will see some FAIR competition for the control of balls at this critical location.

-Dick Ledford

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

Hey, I like that even better. Have a nearly upwards airflow and have the ball float over the re-director. You need about 450 grams of lift on the ball to do that. Be careful not to cause physical lifting or backward rolling while ball is still on the overpass. Pretty sure that that is a penalty or worse.

No time to calculate right now to calculate terminal velocity of our ~ 1 lb (~450 gm) 27.5 inch circumference ball but I would guess at least 55 feet/sec airflow to make it float, probably more. And even more velocity needed if drag of loop bot structure is considered.

Be careful that flow cross-section gradient does not cause ball to stop and roll backward.

Start here: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/shaped.html


Hmm .... if the countermeasures bot takes station on the hump, it can avoid a lot of the risk of blowing the ball backwards. Do not however blow it sideways off the overpass. Staying on the hump would be near impossible but mention this scheme only to keep the ideas rolling. Also, I wonder if incidental altering the rolling speed of the ball on the overpass with airflow is legal. Any fan solution will do some of this.

An air vortex cannon impulse would not disturb ball till it leaves overpass but no idea of the scale required for an effective disruption nor energy efficiency.

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

"Man, they built a better bot than us! SO unfair!"

For what it's worth, you could have built this robot too.

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

Better at what? Exploiting a weakness in the game's set of rules that allows for gaining an almost un-surmountable advantage, ruining the competitiveness, and makes fans bored too!
As I have already posted, my team seriously considered this scheme early on, but they were afraid it would not be allowed. After a vote it was clear that we were too timid to risk going with this scheme - despite the obvious advantage it would offer. By the time we saw the rule clarification indicating it would be legal, were were too far along to go back to it., not to mention that many team members felt it was close to being a violation of the "spirit of the game" (their view, not mine).
Allowing expansion at opponents tower is still the best fix for this game exploit.
-Dick Ledford

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

You weren't at Cass Tech to hear all those bored fans cheering. Including some of the fans of the losing alliance!

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

True fans cheer the most when the outcome remains uncertain right up until the match ends. The 469 looping exploit will not be likely to encourage very many such matches.
-Dick Ledford

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

Dick, why not spend your time looking at how to defend against this? It's not like it's actually unstoppable, it's just the best we've seen so far...

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

That effort is also taking place in parallel to my suggesting the obvious fix for this game exploit of just allowing expansion at both towers.

The reason defending the 469 looping exploit is so difficult is because their opponents are forbidden from accessing this critical zone of ball control, in which 469 can place their re-director, but opponents can place NOTHING. What is the purpose of forbidding access to this zone by opponent mechanisms? No one has answered that question yet?
It is only by forbidding opponents from accessing this zone with their own mechanisms, that this looping exploit becomes so un-defendable. So why not just allow opponents to have same access to this zone? Good Bye exploit, hello competitive matches with 469.

-Dick Ledford

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

Actually, 469 kicks two balls into their zone (and often the goal) in autonomous. They start the cycle themselves, but obviously not as well as when their partners help.

As for the rest of your post, you're correct in many regards. In many of the high scoring matches they had 9-11 balls in "the cycle." 217 was moving 3 balls into the zone in autonomous, 469 was moving 2, and 217 would often chip another one or two in at the start of tele-op.

That being said, that many balls is not essential for their system. It was actually causing clogs and jams in goals and in the return chute. The limiting factor actually became how quickly the human players could return the balls, not the amount of balls.

The idea of removing balls is certainly a valid part of many counter-strategies, but I doubt that it alone could function as the only part if 469 has quality partners.

So, we've seen one robot execute this strategy successfully at one event (and mostly in the eliminations) and you're ready to call it un-surmountable? You've got to be kidding.

Let's not ignore the fact that 469 is far from the only team with a robot designed to deflect and/or redirect balls we've seen compete (1024, 79, 375, etc.). Just nobody else did it nearly as well and it resulted in them often pursuing other roles in the alliance.

Let's also not ignore that 469 was beaten in qualifications and was kept out of the tunnel more than once.

Let's also not ignore that there are many of the top strategists in FIRST devising plans on how to stop (or at least mitigate) 469 and similar bots.

Let's also not ignore that 469 will likely not be alone by the end of the season. I know of at least two other bots yet to play with very similar strategies, but who knows how successful each of them will be. I'm betting that one or two more bots emerge in a similar class to 469.



In short, stop overreacting. Las Guerillas made an outstanding machine and deserve the success they have. But the season is far from over.

And flat out lying about it boring the crowd certainly did not help your case.

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)
 

I've only said what most of their scores (and videos) indicate - that it is a game exploit which is extremely hard to counter. Granted they must get into position before it can happen, and this is not a given for every match. However, once in position the match gets VERY BORING.

I am not suggesting they, or other teams using this concept, are always unbeatable. I only suggest that this looping strategy game exploit scheme is detrimental to the overall level of competition and entertainment of the game.

Yes, and mostly just the elite teams will be capable of implementing whatever they devise as a counter measure.

Great - more boring matches where weaker bots and alliances will have little or no chance of competing at all.

I have given them their props for execution of design. We spent considerable time brainstorming the exact same scheme before we abandoned it. It is not them that is the problem - it's the hole in the rules that allows them uncontested access to the critical high ball return zone. All bots should have same level of acces to these two critical zones.

I never said any specific crowd was bored - only that an UNCOMPETITIVE MATCH GETS BORING!