Chief Delphi - Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

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- - Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas) (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84280)

ErichKeane

16-03-2010 16:58

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 938201)

Once again, you're still examining a sample size that is miniscule in the scope of 2010 matches and small in the scope of 469's matches. You're dismissing the four times that 469 was shutout in qualifications, the multiple matches where they did not enter the tunnel, and the fact there were six matches where 469 did not win.

You're also ignoring the fact that there has been virtually no time for other teams to react to this strategy. Heck, that was the original intent of this thread, developing mechanisms that currently fit within the rules in order to defend against bots like 469.

You're tossing out the fact that 469 isn't the only team to attempt redirecting the balls as they fall off of the return chute. Yes, 469 is clearly the best at it (the rest have been met with marginal results at best), but that's just an indication of the quality of their engineering, not a flaw with the game.

And what about 1114? They beat their opponents 15-3 in the finals in Pittsburgh. Or 67, who was winning elimination matches by 14-0 and 15-2 margins. Or 217 and 2960, who increased 469's average score from 3.75 goals/match in qualifications to 18.67 goals/match in the eliminations?
Should we produce rules to produce "reasonable opportunities to counter" them?

Did you likewise complain about 1114 in 2008? They were winning finals matches with scores like 136-34. Should we have added rules that made it legal to possess the opponent's balls in 2008 instead of just your own because one team was able to win matches in dominant fashions?

I think that if there is a strategy in ANY game that is absurdly effective (particularly a strategy that everyone else cannot do without a massive investment), that it is in the best interest of the game to find a way to mitigate it to a point.

I think we can all agree that when all is said and done, a bot capable of scoring ~10-15 on their own has a huge, nearly insurmountable advantage. In this case it is compounded by them effectively keeping balls out of the game.

ErichKeane

16-03-2010 17:00

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGurnow (Post 938204)

Excuse me for saying this but we did have a dominant alliance at the regional. A majority of the robots at the event did not have successful autonomous, including several in the finals, our alliance had 2 robots with reliable autonomous. At the start of teleop period in the finals we had 7-8 balls in our zone because of our alliance's autonomous modes. We also had a defensive robot that prevented the other alliance from removing balls from our zone. We took control over a majority of the balls and maintained control. If maintaining control of the majority of the balls isn't a sound strategy I don't know what is. In my opinion we had the most powerful alliance at the event.

Sorry to post 2x in a row, but this one came up in the meantime:
I don't see this as huge of an advantage as 469's strategy. Your team still had to deal with balls getting reintroduced in the middle (or on the other side) which is the point of the return pieces. 469 effectively 'takes' the balls out of the game, and uses them to score repeatedly. Between not being able to expand, and only having 1 bot in the defensive zone at a time, the opponent has very little chance to get any of the balls back.

Lil' Lavery

16-03-2010 17:06

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErichKeane (Post 938207)

So we should handicap 217?

It was pointed out by a member of 217 in another thread (now deleted) that in the 20-3 final match (21-3 before penalites) that 217 scored 15 balls and 469 scored 6.

Heck, 359 scored 11 balls in a match in Arizona. Should we also impliment a handicap on feeding balls to the offensive zone via a "midfielder" like the strategy that 359 has used to win two regionals as well?

ErichKeane

16-03-2010 17:09

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 938212)

I don't see 30 threads on here complaining about them being overly dominant in a manner that prevents the other team from having much of a chance.

Tetraman

16-03-2010 17:11

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 938212)

Agreed. Another way to think of it, is if there was a game where you gather and hold balls - would it be unfair if a team designed to hold 20 balls when most teams designed to only hold 10? Of course not.

Lil' Lavery

16-03-2010 17:16

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErichKeane (Post 938213)

I don't see 30 threads on here complaining about them being overly dominant in a manner that prevents the other team from having much of a chance.

Nor do I see widespread complaining about 469. I see a handful of individuals almost as loudmouthed as myself trying to impede a strategy that was wildly successful at one event via legislation. I also see a large portion of the community defending the strategy and congratulating 469. I also see a number of individuals working within the rules to try and determine ways to legally defeat the strategy.

There were teams in Pittsburgh who complained about 1114's roller design. 1114 was dominant there in both qualifications and eliminations. Their roller was a key instrument in their strategy and it cannot "be done without a massive investment." How are they different then 469?

Many teams tried to build rollers as effective as 1114's, but only got marginal results. Many teams tried to build ball deflectors as effective as 469's, but only got marginal results. These teams should not be handicapped because they produced products superior to those of their peers.

Vikesrock

16-03-2010 17:20

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErichKeane (Post 938213)

I don't see 30 threads on here complaining about them being overly dominant in a manner that prevents the other team from having much of a chance.

Which proves Sean's point that people are overreacting about 469 and suggesting rules changes as a knee jerk reaction.

469 has a fantastic robot, no doubt about it, but beating them is all about strategy just like any other dominant robot.

469 has built a robot that fulfills the midfielder role of forwarding balls up to the near zone and occasionally scoring them. Their method of accomplishing this has its strengths (and boy are they big ones), but it is not flawless; there are still weaknesses to the strategy they have chosen to go with. In the Cass Tech eliminations they were paired with two other robots that helped mitigate those weaknesses and their opponents lacked either the robots or strategy (or both) to combat their alliance. I doubt that will be the case for every event they attend, especially now that they have a target on their backs.

sashboy226

16-03-2010 17:23

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 938212)

Heck, 359 scored 11 balls in a match in Arizona. Should we also impliment a handicap on feeding balls to the offensive zone via a "midfielder" like the strategy that 359 has used to win two regionals as well?

469 essentially IS a midfielder, just a far more effective midfielder than others. I have thought of two strategies to defeat them.

1)Double team midfield defense to A) prevent them from tower lock and B) put balls into your own home zone for a scoring robot.

2)Use a strafing bot with a kicker able to kick across the entire field on defense, facing down field, and send anything they do get down to your own scoring zone.

Guess who's *amazing* crab drive and kicker are capable of the second strategy?? hehe...

Ian Curtis

16-03-2010 17:24

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 938212)

IMHO, I think that this year in particular "goals scored" is not directly correlated to "goodness of robot" or "importance to alliance." On the BAE winning alliance, 1073 scored the lion's share of the goals. However, it didn't appear to me that they won on this strength. Instead it was that the alliance really functioned as a cohesive team, with players who were really good at doing what they were supposed to. 1519 cleared out their opponent's zone and the middle zone in autonomous (occasionally scoring a goal or two, but this was icing on the cake, not the meat and potatoes of the strategy). Then they moved into hardcore defensive mode once teleop started. 1058 dutifully moved balls from the middle zone to the near zone, and were also good for the occasional long distance goal. 1073 then had their way with the plethora of balls ripe for scoring.

It's not to say that 1073 wasn't important, they definitely were. However were it not for the solid play of 1519 and 1058 moving balls forward, the alliance wouldn't have gone far.

TL;DR This is a team game. The team who scores all the goals may not be the most important. In my opinion, its the first game in my 7 years that really requires and rewards alliances who work as a unit.

Lil' Lavery

16-03-2010 17:38

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Quote:

Originally Posted by iCurtis (Post 938226)

TL;DR This is a team game. The team who scores all the goals may not be the most important.

That was exactly my point. When you compare 469's results in qualifications against their results in the eliminations, this point is quickly driven home.

pfreivald

16-03-2010 17:43

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 938235)

That was exactly my point. When you compare 469's results in qualifications against their results in the eliminations, this point is quickly driven home.

At FLR we did not score the majority of goals in most of our games. But we dominated the midfield.

The key to this game is *ball control*. 469 has an incredible amount of ball control when those balls have already been scored -- pretty much 100%. But they have no ball control over those balls scored by their opponents.

They have weaknesses. They can be beaten. Lots of smart people are thinking hard how to do exactly that -- just as I am sure they are thinking hard how to counter whatever we all are dreaming up.

P.S. Are you related to Dave Lavery, or is the last name a coincidence?

waialua359

16-03-2010 17:47

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 938238)

P.S. Are you related to Dave Lavery, or is the last name a coincidence?

:p :p :p
He is the brains behind Dave!

Rick Wagner

16-03-2010 18:05

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Join them! I hope that many teams with robots that can already hang quickly use their 65 pound allowance to implement ball deflectors. I would like to have a variety of such robots to choose from for my team's alliance.

Then the game comes down to who can score most in autonomous mode and defend effectively by kicking balls out of the opponent's near zone.

artdutra04

16-03-2010 18:48

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

From what we've seen, I'd say 469's 2010 robot joins the ranks of 190's 2004 robot and 71's 2002 robot. This is good; it's been far too long since I've seen a robot be so creative and inspiring. The idea of a super ball return robot did come up in our strategy meetings, but fears of mind-numbing "you're lawyering the rules!" accusations prompted us to go down a more conventional path. I'm glad at least one team pulled it off successfully.

Hopefully this will reopen the imagination of the FIRST community to accept such designs as the pinnacle of creativity and innovation and not something subject to a "she's a witch! burn her!" mob mentality.

JGurnow

16-03-2010 22:10

Re: Team 39 building 469 stopper solution (Available in Las Vegas)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sashboy226 (Post 938224)

469 essentially IS a midfielder, just a far more effective midfielder than others. I have thought of two strategies to defeat them.

1)Double team midfield defense to A) prevent them from tower lock and B) put balls into your own home zone for a scoring robot.

2)Use a strafing bot with a kicker able to kick across the entire field on defense, facing down field, and send anything they do get down to your own scoring zone. While needing to deal with the 3ft blind spot near the bump and a defensive robot.

Guess who's *amazing* crab drive and kicker are capable of the second strategy?? hehe...

I believe strategy 1 is a lost cause, it means the rest of the match is 1-2 in favor of the other alliance. Strategy 2 is what I though most people would think of as a counter for 469, move fast and kick hard. The problem is the blind spot is where most of the stopped balls go and its hard to grab it and kick it in the 5 seconds you have before 469s next ball comes.

I was really impressed by how well you guys drove during elims, you got around our blocker boat quite a few times but luckily they kept the balls safe. I have to say that your swerve was very nice. I still prefer out drive base, its just like in Goldeneye 007 for the N64, you go fastest at a 45 degree angle. Keep up the good work hammerheads, looking forward to seeing you again at Troy.

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