Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

So, my team has their opinion, but what's yours? Personally I think that 217 has produced the most well engineered bot I've seen in my days. I believe that they have the potential to go all the way to Einstein. What do you think though?

Overrated?
Nothing without 469?
Tell me what you think.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I think them and team 148 have engineered a really good robot this year, can't wait to see 148 hit the field!

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

All I can say is that it was an absolute pleasure being on the winning alliance with them at the FLR. Great team, great robot, great people.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Yeah, and I bet you say that to all the winning alliances you've been on... ;)

-Danny

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Thank you Squeakypig. But I have to say that your robot this year is very impressive for a second year team, and you will be an incredible competitor in a couple years. You already are. I wish you the best of luck.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Danke!
Always good to see your fellow Sterling Heights team moving up the ranks eh? ;)

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

True! All one of them!

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I wish to see how MIA ended up looking without the hanger. I can only see it in webcasts and I would like to see it very closely. Can someone provide this?

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

http://www.thunderchickens.org/

We call the top a sharkfin and the sides shoulderpads.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

How much weight was reduced from the Hanger?
And what improvements were made to your already awesome drive train?

What omni wheels are used in your drive train? AndyMark's?

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

You guys should get some green vision target cathodes on their and add some eyes on the fins. Beautiful robot and can't imagine it with a hanger anymore. :)

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

It's sad that all the hype around that other team is taking credit away from the team that really deserves it...217...

We should be focusing on beating them...let's forget about that 4 six whatever team...

Seriously though, 217 is the real deal...from the students, to the mentors, to the teachers, parents, etc... And they have a pretty good robot ;).

If there was a model for a FIRST team, this is it. I have the highest respect for all of those darn chickens (and wranglers) and look forward to spending many days at Ai together...and beyond!

Oh...and sorry the bird pooped on your robot...

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Awsome bot team !!!! I love the way your robot just glides over the bumps , shifts sideways when needed , and raw power of a tank drive to slam the balls in the goals, great drive system . Also nice ball handler, cant wait to play with you guys in troy!

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I think it's pretty clear that every year 217 will produce a bot that could go to Einstein. They, along with teams like 148, 1114, 254 among others, all give us something to strive for.

These teams are my inspiration.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Don, I thought we agreed that you guys would were the bulls eye from now on. Stop trying to give it back.

Seriously though I do not believe that "credit" is being misplaced 469 deserve all the credit that they have received and then some. Finding an effective strategy and executing it is something that team 469 has always been great at, this year is no exception. All of this debate about 469 and 217 has buried a team that I believe will be seen on Einstein in years to come, 2960. Remember that without a third robot like 2960, scoring effectively against an equally offensive alliance would be difficult if not impossible.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

This is big. A lot of us see 217 and 469 and we stop right there thinking you've already won Einstein. And while that can have it's truth to it, an alliance is not two teams. If people think that an alliance of 217 and 469 could do everything with just them, they are kidding themselves. An alliance is three robots, not just two, and finding the key robot after 21 other robots have become unavailable is not any easy task.

Not everyone gives enough credit to the third robot in an alliance of two powerhouse teams, but it usually is the robot that makes or breaks an alliance.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Indeed, you guys (174) were every bit as instrumental to the FLR win as the 217 and us. There is a reason you were very high up on our 'to pick after ThunderChickens" list! :D

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Our list as well.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I agree that 217's bot is well engineered, yet I haven't seen every other robot this year so I'll withhold my top picks until the end. Rumor has it that 330 and 25 are just as formidable as 217 but much less publicized.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Very well put.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

469 and 217 won 20-3 in the final match with 217 and 469 scoring at least 15 of the goals. The third team was basically a spectator. So I have to disagree with your theory.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

There job wasn't to score all-out... Defense on the on blue robot is what enabled the alliance to put up those high scores. You over look there ablilty to do mutiply things, while good scouting teams see them as a duel threat of scoring and defense. The excuted thier strategy perfectly and thats why we saw those high scores. You do your job, you will be rewarded.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Unfortunately, I am dependent on webcasts and video for most regionals and I didn't I have the opportunity to see much of 217 this year, but I was in awe of 1114. They clearly have produced a wonderful robot that can accomplish all aspects of the game (ball control, kicking, driving, and hanging).

I also have to hand it to their drivers. When I saw them hang from the tower with 5 seconds left and they were at least 10 feet away from the tower, I knew that machine would most likely win (which they did).

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Thunderchickens are what they have always been. EPIC.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

And very green.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Indeed. Team 2960 did an excellent job playing defense on the opposing team's lone defensive-zone robot, preventing that robot from trying to block the 'automatic roll backs', or from trying to clear out the stray balls. Definitely not a spectator.

Three teams make the alliance successful.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

2960 has some very multi-talented team members. I LOVE the Wings of Fire logo (look in the top left of this page). It was designed by a member of 2960! We saw their logo last year and absolutely loved it, so when we needed a new logo for our newly combined team, we enlisted the help of 2960. We'll be forever thankful.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

This team is way overated. It easy to make a good robot when ALL your parts are machined in Texas and shipped back and pop riveted together. The students learn alot about problem solving there. And they expect all the awards they get and arent even excited about winning a district. The driver on the team when asked if he was excited at the cass tech district said " not really, i know we are going to win it". This team really deserves everything they get huh?

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

The rest of your post is pretty straightforward and insulting to everyone on 217, so I'll save my negative words on that for the reputation bar, but I actually have a question / point to make about the above part.

Has anyone learned anything about problem solving from operating the machines that make parts? I learn a lot more about problem solving by designing a robot than by fabricating parts! Fabrication isn't engineering, design is, and engineering is essentially problem solving. So if students are solving the really tough problems, who cares that a sheet metal facility bent some parts for them?

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I don't care if the parts are machined in Texas or Antarctica, what the heck does that matter? Many teams send some or all of their parts out to sponsors to be machined. There are many ways to go about this competition and nowhere in the rules does it say you must machine your own parts.

The designs still have to come from somewhere. The prototyping, design, and iteration steps are where problem solving skills are developed. Learning how to machine things is definitely a great skill to have, but learning how to appropriately apply the design process is an asset transferable to many different types of projects.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Its completely the opposite of what FIRST is about.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I love how whenever everyone decides to slag a team in this fashion, they choose to do it with an anonymous account. Why not put your name behind your voice?

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

You forget, Babycakes, that in order for a team to even have that level of sponsorship, they must first attain it, which is always a difficult task. Furthermore, being able to effectively use this sponsorship is a completely different load to bear. In order for their robot to be machined, they need to CAD every...single...part...of the robot. How much do you learn from pop-riveting tread to a wheel? Nothing, is the correct answer. How much do you learn from CADing an entire working robot? A slight bit more, to say the least.

Next time, I recommend you make an attempt to gear your mindset towards competing with this team, not complaining about what they've earned.

EDIT:

Duly noted, and agreed.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I will challenge you to find anything in the rules or the speeches of Dean or Woodie that suggest that FIRST is about learning to use a drill or a mill or a press or a break.

FIRST is about inspiring students, and if we can tech them some things along the way that's a fantastic bonus.

Team 217 has developed a build season process that allows them to maximize the time they spend on prototyping, design, and iteration by minimizing fabrication time. They do this by using construction techniques that best align with the capabilities of their sponsors. I hardly see how any of this goes against what FIRST is about. Their team has optimized their process to spend the maximum amount of time working on solving the problems presented by the game.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're jealous. I know I am. Team 217 (and the rest of Team IFI, who use similar methods) are teams that I strive to emulate. What makes them even better is they aren't trying to stop you from emulating them, in fact they are actively encouraging it by doing their best to share their design process with the rest of the FRC community.

I always say the same thing to people that say that students don't do design work on team so-and-so, go talk to them. Walk into the team's pit and ask the students about the machine, you may be surprised by how much they're able to tell you.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Wrong.
Dead wrong.
Find me ANY piece of literature or soundbite from FIRST's founder, FIRST's national advisors (Lavery, Flowers, Wilczynski, etc), FIRST's Board of Directors, anywhere on the FIRST website or in FIRST produced marketing materials, etc. that supports your claim.

And you're dead wrong on the machined in TX and riveting things together part, too. There's MORE problem solving going on here among students than you'll EVER know. Do you have ANY clue how hard these students on these teams work at prototyping, building, testing, then CADDING into the wee hours of the morning to actually engineer an elegant final product?

Your version of what FIRST is about is exactly that, your version. If your team decides to build robots differently, then so be it, but why should that mean another team is "wrong"?

And how on earth could you call a team "overrated" that performs the way it does every year? Astounding...

(insert long-breathless rant about the meaning of FIRST here).

Go spend a year with a team, then spout off about them like you know what you're saying. Until then, you'll have to consider that your conjecture might be harmful and potentially slanderous.

namaste.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Pretty much, yeah. They do.

You earn what you work for.

You sound like you haven't worked for much.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

because they know how mob mentality is. I'm not taking either side of this debate, it is napalm to one and all, but the anonymous account thing I will comment on. Anyone who says anything in the FIRST community that isn't "politically correct" gets slammed, both individually and their team. It is a smart thing to do posting anonymously, their team doesn't get harmed and neither do they. And for those who think it is dishonorable and a sneaky stab in the back, what would you do? Put the reputation of your team on the line or post anonymously? Those who will retort back to my post with the "if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say it" remark: if this thread really burned your shorts would you sit back and let it go on?

To everyone on both sides of the issue, I would like to remind you this is a public forum on the internet. Just because you personally don't like what someone has to say doesn't mean you should start a flame war, or run their personal and/or team's reputation through the mud. With that being said, can a moderator please close this thread before it turns really nasty?

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

While I can see what you're saying, kinda, to an extent, in other contexts only... I think there's a difference between "political incorrectness" and saying a team full of hard working students and mentors that's a model for teams around the world to emulate doesn't deserve their trophies or their success because they have some parts machined in another state. Generally, drawing the line at insulting and attacking dozens of individuals publicly and anonymously is not a bad place for said line...

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

It is absolutely dishonourable. If you can't stand behind what you have to say, why bother saying it? I'm well aware that anything I say on these forums is a reflection both upon myself and my team. If I'm not willing to put that reputation on the line, then I'll keep my mouth shut. (Keep in mind I've had my share of controversial moments on these forums and said some pretty blunt things, ask someone on Team 48 if you don't believe me.) It's much easier to criticize someone when shielded by a shroud of anonymity. It's the equivalent of putting a mask on and running up to a kid in school and saying "you're ugly". It's juvenile and ridiculous.

/Edit

Also, posting anonymously is completely unproductive. No one takes these anonymous posts seriously. If the original poster actually had concerns with how 217 was being run, there are about 1000 other constructive ways to address the issue. Perhaps going up to Mike Copioli and saying "Hey Mike, I think your team has some problems, I was hoping we could discuss them". By hurling anonymous insults on an internet forum, the post has accomplished absolutely nothing. (Aside from wasting may time...)

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Feel free to email me and I'll be happy to explain how our process works. There is nothing "easy" about it.

Man... all these people who need a hug, and so little time.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Except it's against the rules that you agree to when you post on this forum.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

/Edit #2 (Since I've already wasted my time)

The Thunderchickens are one of the best run teams in all of FIRST. They arguably have one of the most intelligent student groups of any team in FIRST. (The "ringers" as we've dubbed them) Each year they astonish me with what they accomplish and have probably done more to inspire my methods of mentoring on 1114 than any other team in FIRST. So yeah.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

One's validity is dictated by how much they wager with their opinion, and the strength of that opinion. This person is wagering nothing by saying this, and making a weak point, making it quite easy to highlight.

As JVN stated in his brainstorming video, "If you don't have evidence, your opinion is useless to me." Or, something to that effect. This is true here, where the only evidence is a seemingly jealous statement and a protective mask.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

You pretty much read my mind.

I understand the fact that one may disagree with someone else about a certain statement/post, but this is not really the location for attacking others. chiefdelphi.com was not created for heated arguments.

Every last bit. They received their awards for a reason/multiple reasons.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

The comment against Thunderchickens makes me sick to the stomach. Their team is still one of the reasons why I am still involved with FIRST no matter how much my parents or my gf are against it just because it takes so much out of me.

Thank you Team 217 for all your inspiration.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I can certainly understand where the jealousy comes from regarding 217, 148, etc. The resources (monetarily and sponsorship wise) they have access to are the envy of many small companies, much less a FIRST robotics team. It can be very easy to get disheartened when you have to compete against those teams year in and year out, see their incredible robots, and (usually) lose to them.

That's where it comes back around to the mentors to remind you: you aren't team 217, you aren't team 148. You are your own team and you need to use your own yardstick to measure with.

I'll admit that we go into every competition eyeing those folks, knowing that they'll probably be the ones to beat. That highlights even more just how good they really are, because I bet almost every other team is looking at them the same way.

Improve yourself. Try not to tear others down.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I would like to argue that point. By no means am I going to call their students unintelligent, but I believe that how well a team doesn't necessarily have a direct correlation to the intelligence of the students. Yes a team that does have smart kids is going to do better than with students who are lacking that feat, but if a student from another team was put in a position with as many educational resources (sponsors and mentors who know their stuff) as a thunder chicken student I am 100% confident they would still do well.

For example Team 397 has never won a regional, but that doesn't mean our students aren't as smart. Our students just realize that we must build within our limitations and since there are only 5 of them this year we physically could not put together a thunder chicken machine even if we put every day all day into it. We came up with all sorts of strategies and designs that we see being used, but because of our financial and labor limitations we know we couldn't do it.

I agree the thunder chicken students are smart, but I think that there are many less privileged FIRST students who are smart, and it saddens me that they don't all get the recognition that students like those on the thunder chickens do.

I would also like to comment on one of Baby Cakes comments:
"The driver on the team when asked if he was excited at the cass tech district said " not really, i know we are going to win it"."

I sincerely hope that this is not true, because if it is I am actually disturbed and offended. There is a fine line between pride and arrogance, and I'm sure the mentors of team 217 know how to deal with such issues because that is a terrible reflection of an excellent team. I will leave it at that.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I'm pretty sure FIRST isn't about trash talking teams, but that doesn't seem to bother you too much.

I don't really know what you thought would be accomplished by coming on CD and making statements like the ones you made. It is really unbelievably ridiculous and childish.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

This is not directed at any team in particular just something that I heard from a spectator at the WI regional while walking to launch.

"It is a lot like pine wood derby, you can tell which ones the kids built"

After a quick at robot rules I do not see thing that specifically says the parts are suppose to be built by the team. The only thing I see is that the price even if donated has to be accounted for in the BOM.

I would say you can ask anyone that has seen one of 2481's robots is it student built? They would say yes. It is rather obvious. The robot is almost always made from angle aluminum stock and bolted or welded together if time allows. It shows cosmetically but it gives the student a much bigger feeling of accomplishment when the team goes as far as it did this year or last. Trying to build a robot with out the latest and greatest tools and by ourselves that is able to out compete the sponsor built ones is what drives our team to work as hard as we do during the build season. So as far as we are concerned if teams want to have there sponsor build parts or all of there robot and ship it to them then it is there prerogative. It simply gives the teams that build there own bot a bigger feeling of accomplishment in the end.

Edit: I did not read the beginning of this thread. I just came in on the end talking about sponsor built robots. I'm in no way saying that 217 did not build there own robot. I have no clue. I'm just stating my opinion about sponsor built robots.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Michael,

I agree that there are thousands of team with thousands of very intelligent students. My post was based on my first hand interactions with the Thunderchicken students since 2006 as opposed to any success they have had on the field. Each year I meet a more than a handful of them who dazzle me with their intellect. I normally wouldn't have pointed something out like this, but in light of the implications of the original poster I felt that someone needed to point out the outstanding abilities of these students, despite of claims/implications to the contrary.

It would be great if we could recognize every student in this program, but thankfully not every team needs their reputation boosted a bit after being tossed baseless insults in a public forum like 217 was tonight.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

It is not a smart thing to do-it's cowardly.

If you're going to slander a team you deserve for everyone to know who you are and what team you're from. You deserve to bear the consequences that result. If said person had posted publicly one of their mentors would probably be taking them to task right now for embarrassing themselves and their team. Maybe then this person would learn a lesson that they clearly haven't learned yet.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

That makes more sense now, I completely understand your defense of these students, the thunder chicken students do get bashed every year as do yours. Must get old having to point it out every year to anonymous posters though...

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I unfortunately forgot to do so beforehand, so let me take the time now to applaud the drive, dedication, and intelligence of every team member of 1114, 217, and the other IFI teams who spent many hours perfecting their robot. Furthermore, I would like to thank the mentors for each of those teams, as it is by those same qualities that you have shaped such successful 'dynasties'. I look forward to playing Breakaway with all of you at Championship, and continuing to learn from you all in years of mentoring to come.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

[comic relief]
I'm telling you guys,

everyone's just jealous of the cowboy and chicken motifs, not the robots. :D [/comic relief]

But really, can there be a part in CD registration that requires a team number or team name please?

...Or any other ideas to prevent idiotic & arrogant posters from making false accounts?

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I'm not so sure that would solve the problem because they'd probably just make up a team or use some other teams number/name.

Is there anyway the posts or accounts can be deleted though? I can't see how that post has done any good or done anything other than anger members and take away from the original thread's intentions.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

They are even breaking up families and relationships! These Thunderchickens sound pretty awful!

-Anonymous

PS: I look at the dominant teams in this program and they have two things, intelligence and dedication. Both of them together produce the teams/robots that they do. Without the same level of both it makes it harder and harder to compete. The good news, it’s possible to get there! In fact, people from many of these teams tell you how to do it. They give presentations on how they do it at the Championship (and other venues). Don't get mad, learn, and get even.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I have a friend on 217 and she pointed me towards this thread and was very offended.

It seems that year after year someone comes out and bashes some well known and successful team for not building their own robot, assembling a robot from parts, blah blah blah. What's people seem to forget though, is that when you bash a team on a Public Forum like this, members of the team can see it. While some stand up and will correct you, many just sit back and get hurt because they feel too biased to counter argue.

So to the Anonymous poster who came out and bashed 217, get to know people on the team and then come back on here and make claims about robots being built however - and when you come back, please use a real name.

Also, I'd suggest that any of the Mentors or Team Leaders out there try to talk to their students about good teams and good robots and try to get rid of the animosity that students seem to have towards these elite team. At one point in time (2006) I would go to competitions as an impressionable Freshman and see good robots with my older teammates. They would instantly say, "You know who built that robot, not the kids" and things of the sort. As I got older, and learned about what building robots takes (I was on the other side of those comments once or twice) I grew out of that school of thought. Now I try to make sure that no student on 816 has that mindset. Sometimes, it seems that students (especially those on student run teams) seem to forget that students their own age can build exceptional robots.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I don't think anybody (except maybe thefro526) really understood why people like babycakes had a bone to pick with the Chickens. It's easy to dismiss him as a jealous, lazy brat, but I bet there's more to it than that. Imagine, you're a 16 year old student on your school's team. You and your team put in hours after school, and you end up with a so-so robot relative to the other teams. Then you look over at the guys in green who win multiple regionals a year and resentment starts to build. "Hey, isn't this a fair competition? Me and my friend designed our robot, but they had professional engineers design theirs! My shaky hands and I milled our parts out, while lasers cut our theirs!" It's as if your sandlot team showed up to play and faced off with the New York Yankees. You'd feel at least a little betrayed by what you thought was a balanced playing field.

Like many of you have pointed out, there's nothing in the rules that says the students have to do the work. There's nothing that says everybody will have the same resources. But many students on lesser teams don't realize that. Without understanding those facts, the whole system seems to be a sham competition. Those who have been around for a while realize that unless they're on a dynasty team, they probably won't have much chance of playing on Einstein. But let’s face it, it took us all some time before we realized that. Some people have not reached that realization, and we need to gently help them reach it.

I know people who are much less interested in the MLB (relative to other sports) because of the lack of salary caps. Some people just don’t like the idea that not everybody starts from the same footing, and find the game much less fun for that reason. While in FIRST it makes complete sense to leave the game without a salary/resource cap, so to speak, not everyone will like the resulting system. One way of looking at the original post was that babycakes was simply one of those people and was pointing out his/her reasons. (Disclaimer: the first post, however, was highly undiplomatic and came off as a crude attack. babycakes did deserve to be flamed for that. Not for the message, but for the tone should the blame have come. Also, babycakes' second post indicated that he/she didn't understand FIRST very well, and that post was also worthy of criticism.)



While I’m on a roll defending unpopular viewpoints, I’ll say that babycakes made the right call by posting anonymously. He/she was arguing a point, and the point’s validity did not depend on the person making it. If you can refute the point, then do so. But knowing the person’s identity does not further the discussion of that point. It simply gives you ammo to launch tangent discussions. In other words, posting anonymously dodges ad hominem arguments (although, laughably, many respected members of this community found ways to make these ad-hominem attacks regardless.) Besides, babycakes chose to post anonymously because he/she anticipated that this reaction would occur. Whatever fallout resulting from the anonymity is better than newfound ill-will generated by attaching a team number to a controversial post.

So, ChiefDelphi, I’m defending anonymity outright. Let’s remember how many of the greatest writers have used pseudonyms for their work at some point. Why? Because good points do not need a name behind them to be good points, and an argument is an argument is an argument whether it springs from the keyboard of Justice Roberts or the lowliest student. Recall the line from V for Vendetta “Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof.”

EDIT: Grammar, punctuation, etc.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

There's a stark difference between arguing a point ("maybe students should have to fabricate robots" or something like that) and calling a large body of individuals unenthusiastic slackers who don't deserve to win trophies because they sent CAD files to Texas. FAHA has been used to allow people to argue viewpoints anonymously before, if people want an avenue to do so. But I don't see "arguing a point" as a catch all safety net for lobbing pot shots at teams.

What if that was your team? What if I made an anonymous account and called you an ungracious jerk who should have to give back all the trophies you've ever won? I'm sure you'd be happy then.

Thanks for not making your post anonymously :)

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I tend to disagree on this point. Just last year, a team I have competed with and against for 6 years told me that they always like competition because the kids finally get to work on the machine. I was floored as by looking at it, I had assumed all of those years that the kids built that one. This mentor assumed that our machine was "pro-built", so I had him come up close and see what's under the vinyl. There are a ton of teams that I thought were professionally built that it turns out, just use a lot of CNC and automation. Kids do the CAD and design, a machine shop runs the Waterjet/CNC... cut out the parts, and the kids bolt it together.

We have been a team that the kids do 90+% of the fabrication, but I am begining to question what is more important: Teaching a kid how to wink a hole so that the bolts go through, or using automated fabrication and teaching them better design skills?

So can you tell by looking "which ones the kids built"? After 6 years, 2 teams, and helping dozens of other team at competitions, I learned that I can't tell which ones the kids built vs. Adults. Ironically I thought I could my first 2 years in the program. Differentiating facts from assumptions is one of the most important things anyone can learn.

P.S. For what it is worth, I swung by a 217 practice and was thoroughly impressed the kids were working on and practicing with their practice robot essentially on their own. Yes they were supervised, but it was the kids making repairs, running the drills (actual plays like a real sport), and were really functioning on their own. It sure didn't look like it was the first time either.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I can't express my feelings as well as those before me.

I can just say that for people to have these feelings towards 217 is sad. They are an incredible group of students, mentors, parents, teachers and their involvement makes FIRST better in all ways. I'm amazed when I look around at a Michigan event like Cass Tech and see TC Green in almost every pit it seems helping teams out.

It's sad that you have that opinion because you obviously don't know them...but it's your loss...

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

It has been said that ‘imitation is the sincerest form of flattery,’ but having an anonymous stalker has to beat being copied by a long shot. :cool:

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I'd like to break this post down into a couple major points, so it's clear that I have several distinct ideas.

1. Prejudicial Bashing is Unacceptable
I find all prejudicial bashing absolutely unacceptable. To have someone who has probably never even really seen into 217's build season accuse them as an outsider is ridiculous. If there is any validity to the "knew we were going to win" comment, which I really doubt there is any of, then that would be upsetting. The most that should be done with some sort of accusation would be a respectful PM to Paul Copioli or one of the lead mentors of 217. Babycakes definitely took the wrong stance here.

2. Students Wrestling Through the Design Process is Great
I haven't seen a design project or competition anything like FIRST. For high school students to actually have the opportunity to take on the "FIRST Challenge" every year is great. Students gain more as their involvement increases, from the game-breakdown to the picklist, from the drawing board to the pit crew, from the CAD window to the crate. I think the most unique opportunity in FIRST is the CAD window, though... There is no design project for high schoolers as big as this, that I have seen. I am truly proud, impressed (and maybe a little jealous...) of the 217 students who design such a complex robot year after year. The fact that these students consistently design so well is an inspiration to me and my team. That said, I'm impressed with all of the student designers in FIRST, regardless of how well their robot performs.

3. 217 is Epic
Just to make sure everyone out there knows how much I admire 217... If there's any team I'm most impressed by, it's theirs. Ever since I began to see teams beyond our local regional, 217's has most impressed me! Sorry to the runners-up... ;-)

4. The Shop is Fun
The time that students spend in the shop throughout the season is often what draws students onto our team. The young teenagers love to be able to use the drill, the pop-riveter, everyone has their favorite tool... The feeling doesn't wear off, though. I joined our team (1519) in 8th grade and on my first day I was able to use the drill press and the riveter. I loved it from the beginning. Those first two years I spent all my time in the shop - I got pretty good at constantly "Macgyvering" a parts. For those that don't know, our team has limited resources... Our well-loved, low-quality Drill Press is as high-tech as we have, and the table doesn't have a X, Y, or Z adjustments! Although I'm in my 5th year and I do more CADing than anything else... I still love working in the shop. Everyone loves to build - everyone I've met, at least!

5. The Shop is Educational
To be honest, I've been disappointed with the comments that seem to demean the shopwork that students do. There is alot to learn in the shop. If I had to pick which is better for students' future, fabrication or design, I'd agree that design is more important; however, to say that sending the designs out to a sponsor for production is essentially no loss is, in my mind, false. Students learn in the shop, although maybe even more in our shop than in one with a CNC mill and metal break or a manual mill and lathe. As I said, we often have to "Macgyver" a way to do everything, which would be entirely unnecessary if we were in a more high-quality shop. Measuring and marking become a precise art and an opportunity to gain an attention to detail. Easing the miter saw or drill press through material teaches you a "mechanics' feel" for how machinery behaves. Tapping and tightening bolts to an appropriate torque are valuable also. I view the shop as the classroom for students that will always be good at repairs in the future. Perhaps I mis-read some of the comments that seemed to diminish the role of the shop...

6. Anonymous Posting...
Well, I don't think anonymous posting is cowardly... I think the fact that your name and team # go along with the post is a valuable "conscience" for what you should be posting. If you have to say "hmm, this would ruin my team's name..." then it's probably just an inappropriate thing to say! So, I would essentially say that anonymous posting isn't inherently cowardly and that there should never (or almost never?) be a reason to need to post anonymously.

Those are my 2 cents... I'd like to hear your response to these thoughts.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I have only had the honor of being at the same competition as the ThunderChickens once, Nationals in 2006. They were in the pit dirctly behind us through the curtain. I know we used them as a resource the entire weekend, and they never once hesitated to help.

They are a very well organized and run team from mentors and parents all the way to the students. I was never under the impression that they knew they were better than everybody else. All they did was help others. As someone said earlier, you look in the pits and all you see is that TC Green. That is who they are!

Yes they may have the luxury of not having to hand cut everything, but what is wrong with that? This gives something for other teams (like mine) to shoot for. It gives us motivation to go out and find that sponsor that is willing to produce our parts so we can have a "better" robot. I am using the term "better" loosely because the robot is only as good as the designers made it. So give them credit, they have good (very good) designs year in and year out. That is what we should be jealous about, the ability to analyze the game and figure out the "best" design. That is really the special skill. I don't care if you had all the money and all the material resources, that does not make up for an efficient and effective top caliber robot on a yearly basis.

To end, I would like to thank the ThunderChickens for all of their effort they give to teams year in and year out, and setting such high standards for other teams to shoot for!

-Tim

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I'm with you Karthik, if you really feel the need to say something, don't go hide behind a fake account, stand up, say what you need to say, but be courteous and polite about the WAY you say it. Generally speaking, people will accept your opinion as just that, your opinion, which the freedoms afforded to us by our ancestors entitled us to. If your opinion is incorrect, people will correct you, and if your opinion has some validity, you might start a productive discussion.

Personally, I think 217's program is one of the best in FIRST. I also don't necessarily agree with them outsourcing parts to TX. Personally, I think there's alot of value in having the students machine the parts. Do I think 217 is being unfair or unjust or just wrong for outsourcing the parts? No.

I've both stuck my nose into, and started more than my fair share of these controversial type arguments, and walked in carefully wording my argument, and acknowledging that I might be wrong, and that people might care to disagree with me. I go in fully expecting to get -Repped for it, and it never happens.

The way I see it, people are open to criticism, if carefully worded, but they wont stand for outright bashing.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Isn't your cowardly approach to bashing 217 completely against what FIRST is about?

217 has one of the most amazing programs in FIRST. As stated earlier, it's not about how you make your robot or what you make it out of, it's what you learn from the experience.

-Nick

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

When I read through this thread it strikes me that this is not about an individual person upset about an individual team. To me this is more about something that is a part of the culture fo FIRST - people being upset about the disparity between "Have not" teams and "Have lots" teams.

Every year "Have lots" teams dominate the awards and eliminations and "Have not" teams may sneak in an award or finals appearance here and there.

There are tons of threads on CD on the topics of mentor vs. student built, well funded vs. poorly funded, collaboration and other topics that surround this issue. In my mind this is a part of the culture of FIRST that teams on both sides of the coin have to accept and make the most of.

I am certain that there will never be true parity in FIRST, but I have never seen an indication that competitive parity is a goal of the organization. FIRST is around to inspire students by linking them up with mentors, role models and heroes from the fields of science and technology (and others!)

I would suggest that if you see yourself as a "Have not" and are feeling frustrated about it that you try and work with some people from the "Have lots" teams. I am sure you will find that they are open to helping and that they have quite a bit to share that can start you on the path to improving yourself and your team. These superstar teams are inspirational and most are ready to share what got them to where they are.

Rob

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

There's always a lot of team dynamics involved in running a FRC team. That's part of the fun of it and part of the challenge.

Being one of the consistently successful teams who are consistently labeled as being: elite, the best, powerhouse, and dominant - is flattering, truthful, and perhaps, burdensome. For students who enter a team that has such a high standard and such a remarkable reputation (not just in their community, but in the FIRST community), must create challenges for that team. Keeping it fresh, striving, understanding that those who have gone before have helped build up the strength of the reputation and those that follow, continue to shore it up and build on it - or that is the hope.

In my opinion, that takes a lot of work. A lot of effort on the part of the mentors and the veteran students - to impart the values, the heritage, the legacy - and the respect of and for the team. Just as in any team, not everyone gets that at the same time. Some of the team dynamics and challenges are different and some are the same, including the awesomeness, talent, and enthusiasm found in the students in every FRC team.

Managing success can be as challenging as overcoming failure. Both take work, effort, and commitment. We should never shortchange these teams who serve as role models and will help shape the future of FIRST, because of our own petty jealousies or narrowed thinking.

Jane

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Shop Class is for machine operators, and CADing and sending it to a shop is for Engineers. I think they are actually learning more, including a more true version of the engineering process. No engineer is going to go into the workplace and tell a bunch of guys on the drill press how to make it, but instead the ThunderChickens are getting valuable hands on experience about designing, material strengths, tolerances, prototyping, etc. I can bet one of my students never learned a thing about tolerances by working our drill press.

And after they get their personally designed parts back, I'm sure they catch up pretty fast when making the slight modifications that most of our students make to make it better.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I was not going to post in this thread, but I have decided to just clear up some facts (some of which are in other posts on CD).

I will not respond to babycakes as I know who you are (gotta love technology) and will have an independent conversation with you when I am in Michigan this weekend.

Regarding our "outsourcing" to Texas -

From 2000 to 2004 our team had the Ford Van Dyke Transmission plant millwrights at our disposal. We could get machining, welding, etc. completed by them and we were not allowed to do it ourselves. We adapted our team workflow based around these limitations focusing on design, assembly, prototyping, and testing (why we usually use PVC in creative ways).

In 2004, the plant decided it would no longer provide these services, but allowed us to do it ourselves in our team room. As such, we purchased the mini lathe and mill you see in our pit at competitions. We also purchased two more lathes to use during build season. In addition, we had a student whose father ran a sheet metal shop in Michigan who offered to donate sheet metal parts if we made them in CAD and sent the solid models directly to them. I had no idea how to design sheet metal parts so I decided to ask around and learn about the process. I proceeded to teach the students who do design (about 12 each year) and we started our first robot made almost entirely from sheet metal (note, no TX yet).

2005 was a carbon copy of 2004, except JVN (then a College senior at Clarkson University) and I decided to give collaboration a try. 217 made the sheet metal for team 229 and 229 made some parts for 217. In addition, we had about 15 ThunderChicken students who learned how to use the mill and lathe. In 2005, 80% of our turned parts were manufactured by team 217 students. The sheet metal was made by the same Manufacturer as 2004.

In 2006, the company who made our sheet metal went out of business so we were back at square one from that standpoint. Coincidentally, JVN started working at this small company called IFI who just had built their own sheet metal shop 2 years prior. Since John had decided to take the year off in FIRST, I asked him if IFI was willing to make the sheet metal for team 217 if we designed it. He got with the two owners of IFI and they agreed. We have not turned back since.

On team 217 we usually have about 35 to 50 students. The majority of them work on the robot. A few of them are dedicated to our PR team. about 12 students are involved with design and the rest do prototyping. We prototype everything.

With every aspect of our team we try to keep it 50% student - 50% mentor. Since the sheet metal is manufactured by our sponsor, we make sure that the students are the ones touching the robot in most cases. Occasionally, the students will ask for mentor help; but that is up to the students. We spend a great deal of effort to make sure all aspects of our team are 50 - 50 as that is part of our basic philosophy.

If anyone is curious as to how our team operates, please do not hesitate to ask any one of us. we will be more than happy to explain the what and the why. You may not agree, but that doesn't mean we are not inspiring our students.

In any case, I hope babycakes looks me up at Troy this weekend as I really do want to clear this up.

Paul

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Getting back to the original point of this thread... 217 has an incredible robot and would be a valuable part of every alliance, with or without 469. In my opinion 217 is one of the best 5 robots out there - I realize that about 500-600 teams have yet to be seen, but 217 is very impressive regardless!

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

217 is amazing, simply put.

I one day wish my team could be as amazing as them and many other teams in FIRST. I also hope to learn how to use sheet metal as they, 148, and many others do. That is what FIRST is all about, gaining resources, friends, knowledge, employment and a better feeling for one-self. In the end, if there is one team that 99.5% (other .5% is the Thunder chickens :p) of the people in FIRST should try to be, it is team 217 - The Thunder Chickens.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

This is absolutely the best thing I have read on this site in years. Thank You Jane

Thunderchickens have no reason to be defensive. We are a young team (4th year) and have had the privledge of being beat by them in St. Louis. They taught us a lot and made us better in the process. Dean has expresed his feelings before on this subject and the thunderchickens are using a very acceptable model. It may not be the model you or I use 100% and that is fine too. We can all get there using different roads.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I have more concern about your comments than any other posted here. Shop class as you call it, is for engineers too. You can not design it if you do not know how it is built. You are missing one of the big reasons we are here.

You say: "No engineer is going to go into the workplace and tell a bunch of guys on the drill press how to make it". Again you are wrong, ever hear of time and motion or quallity control? That's engineers telling people on the drill press how to do their job better.

hmmm..... or robotics kids are learning about tolerancing while using the drill press. One of us is missing something.

Sorry for changing the subject, but I feel much better now.

Thunderchickens rock!

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Freedom of Speech is a tricky thing.

Unless you vigorously defend the rights of others to express opinions that you disagree with then there is no Freedom of Speech.

That said, we all should have the right to express our opinions and the tricky thing is where the line is drawn as to those opinions being untrue or offending, degrading, or otherwise harming others.

I'm with post 37: "can a moderator please close this thread before it turns really nasty?"

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I'll let you all in on a little secret. Dean likes the big, successful, mentor driven, powerhouse teams who constantly raise the bar. He said so during the opening ceremonies in Chicago this past weekend. He specifically called out Beatty, Wildstang, and Bomb Squad as teams he is grateful for. If he gave the same speech in Michigan, he would have mentioned HOT and the Thunderchickens. If Dean thinks they're right for FIRST, you should too.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

There's a reason I took a basic machining class my senior year of high school. There's a reason that my college has a machine shop really close to the main engineering competition design/fabrication areas.

It's so that the guys who have to build and maintain the stuff you just built aren't consigning you to the devil every time they have to get to that one bolt that has to be removed before any other maintenance is performed, but is in a place that needs a 5-foot arm to reach.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

It is possible to criticize FIRST and disagree with well-known figures in the robotics world on Delphi and come away with respect if you do it politely and in a reasoned manner. A year or two ago I took on both Karthik and John V-N in a discussion of coaching and came away with a forest of green dots even though my position was certainly not the most popular. A lot of times in life it's not what you say, but how you say it.

The anonymous poster might have worded this point differently and started the 1000th iteration of the "should robots be 100% student-built" discussion. It would have been repetitive, but it wouldn't have been rude. It probably also wouldn't belong in a thread with this title.

To say something at least remotely relevant to this thread, I'm only sorry that 217 doesn't participate in the VRC or FTC. Then, our club would have a chance to beat both 148 AND 217 at Worlds... :)

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Team 217 is an inspiration for this "have-nots-turning-into-a-haves-through-a-lot-of-hard-work" team.

Thank you Paul, and the rest of 217, for giving us something to strive for. Someday, I hope 1551 is looked up to with as much earned admiration as 217. You guys rock.

We'll never have your funding. We'll never have your number of students or mentors (being extremely rural). But if we have your spirit, we can share in your success, and every year become better than what we were the year before.

Good on you, guys.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Sticking up for friends is one of best uses of time that I know of. Thunderchickens young and old will see a derogatory post followed by an outpouring of supporting comments from some of FIRST's finest. Robots may come and go but hopefully the friendships and camaraderie formed within FIRST will last a lifetime.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

This story may be interesting:

I had the pleasure of meeting a student on a FIRST team in 1999 named Eric Gargus. He was the senior student leader on this team. We had an a match together at the Midwest Regional. He was his team's driver and I was our drive team coach. His team was having a tough time, as their robot was not good. He was venting to me about drama within his team and I just listened, not really knowing what sort of advice to give.

I saw Eric again at the Championships, and he said that his team was doing better, but he was still frustrated. He told me that his team did not like my team, since our team has too many engineers involved and we have this huge sponsor (Delphi) who gives us everything. He also said that they don't like us because we won too much (we won the Championships during the prior year).

Guess what team Eric was on? At the time, this team was called "Team McComb", and their team number was 217. Yep, this is the same 217, and now they are known as the Thunderchickens.

It looks to me like the Thunderchickens decided to DO SOMETHING about their frustration instead of whine about it. Good for them, and good for the rest of FIRST. We are all better because of this can-do attitude.

So, if your team gets trounced by one of these top-notch teams, you can do two things:

1. Whine and complain
2. Go to their pits, talk to their team, and learn what makes them excellent

I bet it won't take more than 2-3 years for your team to become great like the Thunderchickens. It is very hard work, but it will be worth it.

Go, be excellent.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

In an attempt to be interesting and entertaining, I offer you this observation/confession:

Back in my freshman year (2002 Zone Zeal) I was very much to the idea that FIRST was nothing but competitive. And my first regional, one of our first matches put an impression on me. We got our butts handed to us by team 175. I mean we got our butts hhhhhhhaaaanded to us. Considering that 175 was so good in that regional that year, and the fact they were 175 and we were 174, I immediately called "Rival!". No one else on the team paid much heed to me when I called 175 "our rivals" and it confused me to no end why everyone thought that it was silly to have a rival.

Turn the page to the next year and I figured out why: I called out a new "Rival" that was just better then us. And the next year there were those who were "much better then us" and eventually I found out that every year, the teams that were much better then us were so because they...well...were. Our team was rag-tag, it was scattered and did little real design work. Our robots failed because we tried to put so many mechanisms on it that didn't work. We were SO inefficient. Turn the page to 2006 my senior year and those of you know know the story of the Team Spirit award will know, that was the year we turned it around. And we did turn it around. We gathered new mentors, new sponsors, and new types of students. After 2006 we have been regional champs 4 out of the past 5 years. And the best part is, we STILL don't have all the resources that other teams have. We are a minimal team still, and yet all it took was just the right change.

Take the word from someone who was apart of a team that literally went from laughable to three time FLR champ: You have to change your perspective. You will never reach 217 potential without having 217 perspective.

There are times to say "teams are way too good, their robots are too cheap, their resources too vast, and their designs are too game-breaking." But thats only if you can find one, and no one has found one yet.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Their machine is a beast. They have excellent drivers. And have some of the best mentors in all of FIRST. Frankly, It could be the biggest upset I've ever seen if they are NOT on Einstein. Simply put, if you don't defeat them in the first 20 seconds by Championship time, you won't beat them at all.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

We might not be as good as 217, or the other traditional "powerhouse" teams... but we are better because of them.

Jason

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Best statement I've seen in the entire thread.

My friends, my team, and myself look up to Team IFI for many reasons. We do NOT always agree with their methods, but we always agree with their outputs and results. I have kids on team 11 who out right hate the CADing of parts and sending them out to a shop, these are kids who don't get what exactly Team IFI is all about. But they do learn a heck of a lot each year when these teams unveil their robots and help us out each and ever year.

Of course, I would never want to leave out teams outside of IFI such as 111 and 71 in a "thank you for inspiring our team" thread.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I would have to say 217 is probably the most inspiring team for my team, 2851. Besides being the "little brother" of 217, our teams didn't have the best 'feelings' for eachother last year. And yet despite all of this we still respect eachother as amazing teams. If it weren't for 217, Crevolution wouldn't be the team it is now, to thrive to be as good as the Thunderchickens (and eventually beat them ;) ) is our goal. It is not a very fun time when people mention a Sterling Heights team and they all of a suden think 217. It is because of this I love the Thunderchickens, they make us strive. O the leaps and bounds we made from our rookie year last year to this year, absolutely stunning in my opinion.

And also, i have heard the rumors about the TC robot being "mentor designed" and I know this not to be true. Many of my school mates on TC have told me so, and i highly doubt all 20 of my closest friends would be lying to me. Sterling Heights does not know that word 'conspiracy'.

So in the end, I want to thank the Thunderchickens. You handed us our biggest lose this year, and because of it our robot...well let's just say it's got a little more bit ;) (see my profile picture to understand the pun)

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Bite!!! puns work best when they are actual puns!

love to see the good out ways the bad by a large margin on this post, just like FIRST

Big Shoes Chickens and unfortunately you out grow them every year

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

You came very close to quoting Evelyn Beatrice Hall here (often misattributed to Voltaire): "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

I LOVED the story from Andy in 1999. That just goes to show how you too can be like the Chickens, if you're willing to work at it. Teams that think the "have's" like 1114, 217, 148, 254, 67, 111, et al. just have things handed to them are sorely mistaken. They work hard, and they deserve what they get, even if it is frustrating to the rest of us striving to be like them.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I just want to throw out my two cents.

Being from team 2851 and attending the same school as most of the Thunderchickens, I can say that I have interacted with their members pretty closely and they are all great people. Even after beating us 26-1 at Cass Tech, they showed respect for us and many of them showed up to our next regional to cheer us on and help us. The Thunderchickens are a great team and I think it is sad for anyone to bash them for their success.

Don't hate on them because they are good or do things differently than your team.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Thunderchickens are great this year.
They're robot is the best I've seen for this game (scoring goals)

469 is another story, they're very imaginative and they're robot is brilliant.
But, I believe that without 217 or any other good scoring robot, They would not have won the regionals that they did, and we've seen that when they had games that they had to score themselves and they were good but not as 217.

Eventually, in my opinion 469 217 are the best alliance I've seen. (and any medium scoring + defensive robot)

I believe we'll see them on Einstein this year!

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Let us also not forget that it was a 217 mentor that designed the very first drivetrain gearbox in the kit of parts for all teams to use. Who remembers when those drill motor trannies were the only drivetrain options for so many teams? Without a kit gearbox I wonder how many rookies and "have nots" would be moving at all in competition?

Without Paul's design then and AndyMark's work now (and all the work Paul, JVN, Andy Baker, and others put into the WHOLE community for the past seven years or so - kit gearboxes are only part of the story), I wonder how much BIGGER the gap between 217/148/1114/45/etc and the rest of us would be?

These people and teams routinely take the time to make us all better, closing the gap on purpose, then they still routinely kick our butts. We certainly are all better because of them!

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

Actually, when we were practicing with 217, one of the things that a mentor had said was; "what if everyone was this good? Wouldn't that be amazing?" I thought so. If every team worked as hard as possible to be as good as 217, or 1114 to name a few, FIRST would be even more amazing than it already is. 217 and others try to close the gap on purpose, to make everyone better. The things they do never cease to amaze me.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

We all have our opinion on the "mentor built vs student built". Does it really matter which is right as long as the students win. By the way, receiving or not receiving a trophy at the end of a competition is not the indicator of a winner. I personally believe in having my students build there robot. You can ask any of the students on 2719 and they can verify that I really don't know much about how there robot runs.

That being said, winners of a competiton are those students that come out of an event proud of what they did at the competition and the way they handled themself through the rigors of the competition. My team finished 37 out of 38 at Traverse City and 31 out of 40 at Ann Arbor, but I believe they were all winners at those events. They changed there robot in the middle of an event and never missed a match and constantly worked hard on their robot and kept high spirits throughout the event. Why would I classify this as a sucess? The praise that I received from other team mentors and parents on the conduct/work ethic/spirits of my students was amazing. Last thing said "MY TEAM DID NOT WIN ANY TROPHIES BUT THEY EARNED A LOT OF PEOPLES RESPECT." They are winners. So who cares if a robot is student built or mentor built.

Everyone needs to give Kudos to 217/469 and the other teams who stratagy and design was the perfect match for the way this years game is played and drop this stupid thread. :D

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

#1 It was Team Macomb: Mac Knights (1999) and Team Macomb: Royal Fusion (2000-2001) [Sorry for nitpicking. It's what I do]

#2 This story exemplifies the main reason why I roll my eyes at teams complaining that some veteran teams have it sooooo good :rolleyes: I remember some years when I'd never think 217 would ever be able to compete with the likes of Hammond or Wildstang, but the dynamic that they have - Dedicated teacher support, consistent and strong team leadership, mentors that can all communicate their ideas and build to their strengths, and strong fundraising - all are keys that have helped The ThunderChickens be the success that they are.

I see 217 as a Red Wings sort of team - Everyone clicks into their own roles, tremendous scouting, great coaching & front office, and a team that inspires others to one day be the superstars that they are. You shouldn't fear them, and on the other hand (please) don't worship them, because there's nothing magical about 217, nothing that any other team can't accomplish. What you should do is try to emulate them, because they are a team that really gets the meaning of FIRST, and THAT's why they're successful.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

While, since this seems to be the place to bash 217 this year I will join in the fun. I'll come out and do it with my team information there too. ;)

Those jerks spent 2 hours talking to myself and 2 other KU students and bragged about everything on their robot. They talked about construction methods, programming techniques, and even the problems they had and how they fixed them. On top of that, they took 30 minutes telling me how I should get more school support for my team.

Oh, wait, those were good things. Yeah, I spent nearly 3 hours talking to Mike Copioli about every aspect of their robot as well as how their team is organized. He was willing to take time the week before MSC to help someone who he had never met before. Yup, this is a team that sounds like they are the opposite of the goals of FIRST. You know what, I could care less if the Thunderchickens go out and win every single event they compete at. What makes the great teams great is their willingness to share and help everyone around them.


Thanks 217, you guys are real jerks. I'm sorry these guys all think you are nice.
(For anyone who has not picked up on the sarcasm of me calling them jerks I am not insulting them. The Chickens are an amazing FRC team and I know for a fact they will help anyone they can. As my brother says below, Thank you guys for taking the time to talk to us.)

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

They're so unamerican sharing all their knowledge with us...that's completely against what FIRST is about, that's straight up communism...

Thanks Mike, you were a real help today. See you at MSC.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

I'll go out on a seemingly unpopular limb and say that I disagree with the way some teams do business, mostly the have-lots as someone called them I guess, but I'm not about to say they go against the "spirit of FIRST" because that's interpreted by each person differently.

I will say that personally I feel like its more of the "spirit of engineering" to do as my team did (the only way we could, being rookies) and build our robot without super advanced tools (hacksaws, miter boxes, and eventually a chop saw) hold everything together with a conglomerate of pop rivets and bolts, and jury rig things until they fit and worked like we wanted them to. This isn't to say I think the other teams are bad people, or the students are lazy or anything like that, simply that in my mind as my personal opinion, that is more in the general spirit of engineering than using lathes and mills and outsourcing parts, or whatever the case may be. This doesn't mean anybody else does it wrong or violates the spirit of first, but those are my 2 cents... that as a general rule, we as students get a better taste for the idea and principle of engineering through doing it the rougher, more handmade, unsophisticated way of doing it... personally I was very very proud of our robot, which though not as shiny or nifty as 217 by a long run, was simple and fun and decently effective from how we did.

Again, no bashing here, just disagreeing with their practices due to my personal feeling on the spirit of engineering in general... that said, 217's bot kicks tail and they have a great thing going this year.

Re: Team 217 - Thunderchickens
 

You may have confused engineering with tinkering or manufacturing. In a typical company, the engineer sends designs to the manufacturing group, who builds the parts. If the manufacturing group has an issue, the engineer is called up to help them fix it. This is the way a lot of engineering is these says.

There's a spotlight here that says something to the effect of: "The difference between a tinkerer and an engineer is that an engineer can tell you the result before you start."

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that there is a different view of the spirit of engineering.