Re: disaster in israel regional
 

Feel free to blame whichever topical thing to dislike about FRC you want, but no beta test team tested or anticipated the need to test the system the way Israel had to run it due to government regulations.

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

Oh really? Amateurs? And I suppose you know these people personally?

Then I suppose any old ungrateful team could write their own fully functioning code from scratch?

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

I'm curious to hear from 1662 and 1836 (the two Californian teams) about this issue. Their perspective would be interesting given their frame of reference to American regionals and their viewpoint as a competitor (and one from a foreign nation, at that).

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

What course of action do you propose, then? Instead of pointing fingers and blaming people for what's wrong, why not give some sort of constructive criticism on how to fix the current system? As evidenced by Team Update #16, FIRST does, at times, listen to the concerns of the greater FIRST community.

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

I don't want to totally derail this thread so I will be concise.

FIRST should use a simple AVR microcontroller with a basic library for abstraction. NO OS ON THE ROBOT. NO PRECOMPILED LIBRARY. NO MULTIPLE UPDATES IN A SINGLE WEEK. Keep it simple stupid. Despite all of FIRSTS efforts - almost no teams use vision tracking this year. There is no reason for teams needing a $1000 subsidized cRIO. C is better for students to learn than Labview.

Back on topic - SO why couldn't Israeli teams test their code?

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

If you really don't want to derail this thread, you better explain and have a good warrant and reason to every one of your claims.

FIRST just moved away from a simple microcontroller for a reason.. I am awestruck by the lag-less target detection and advanced driving systems that have risen from the ability for real time complex mathematical computations that the cRio was able to deliver. That 8 bit controller using interrupts would've been no where close enough.

That sounds nice. But then again, it's much easier said then done. If you want "simple stupid" maybe FRC isn't for you.

You are quite uninformed. I'll leave it at that.

Perhaps there's no reason... But that's not for us to decide. It's also not for us to decide whether or not C or LabView is more useful, as they aren't mutually exclusive skills or toolsets.


I think I can imagine the scope of the horrible event and letdown the Israel Regional may have been. But I think we don't need to keep complaining or whining or telling FIRST that they messed up. Like in a music concert, the performers are the FIRST to know if there was a mistake, even a minute one that goes unheard to the audience. I think that there's no reason for people to be bashing the Israel Regional, at this point. Just be patient with FIRST and FRC and eventually they will have it solved. I hope that the competition is more than just getting in to matches and winning. I had always thought and believed that FIRST was for something greater, the experience, the work ethic, the team work, the spirit, the connections and relationships, and the generosity (Gracious Professionalism) at the competitions. Let's show Dean, Woodie, and rest of FIRST that we can handle minor hiccups like those that went down in Israel.

Keehun
Team 2502

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

Leav and Jon explained what happened pretty well, I'll try to give you the FTA's PoV once I get home

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

Not sure of the feasibility, but perhaps FIRST should allow any of the teams participating in the Israeli regional who can swing it the opportunity to go to Atlanta.

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

On the contrary, FIRST probably has a better chance of succeeding in Isreal than it does here in the US. I would be greatly surprised if any of the US Regionals would be able to carry on with their program if they experienced technical problems any where near what Isreal did, given the pressure any teams in the region are already under.

Compared to Isreal, the Bayou Regional had minor technical problems. They caused delays of up to several hours and forced several matches to be replayed. There were some communications problems throughout the regional but the majority seemed to always be with the same robots. Not sure how much of that you can blame on the field. Every team still got to play 10 qualifiers even though it ran late every night.

Just to make it clear, the following incidents happened at the BAYOU REGIONAL in the US, NOT in Isreal:

A timer problem caused one of the quarter-final matches to be replayed. 1912, the top seed and #1 alliance, lost the re-played match and was eliminated from the playoffs. This lead to an incident of one of the team members throwing things on the field which caused the announcer to stop the proceedings,which he stated was unprecedented in FIRST, and chastise the team for their behavior. Try to imagine what might have happened if a coin-toss had decided the match. This was NOT a low-funded rookie team, but one of the older powerhouse teams in the region who went on to win the Chairman's Award at the Bayou after this incident!

The field did not get any visibility of many of their problems on Thursday because there was never a full field of robots to test with. The practice schedule was totally abandoned and the announcers were begging for any team with a running robot to bring it to the field for practice matches so they could test the field. This is not a reflection on the field system, it is a result of the complex operating system on the robot which only a few teams have the mentors or students to fully understand.

Their were also difficulties with many teams passing inspection. At 5:00 Thursday afternoon 4 teams had passed inspection. There were several statements made by predominantly black teams that the white teams had an "easier" inspection. The last team did not make it through inspection until their last match, but still qualified 8th and were an alliance captain. This directly lead to some of the qualifying changes in Update 16.

Compared to Isreal, these were all EXTREMELY minor problems. Yet they still quickly lead to dissension and a loss of Gracious Professionalism among the teams. Given the same pressures, anyone who thinks that a United States regional would turn out any better than the Isreali regional is severely mistaken. I would commend the teams at the Isreali regional for carrying on despite the adverse conditions.

If FIRST is really serious about their mission, they will reconsider their use of a control system that is so complicated that only a relatively few strong teams are proficient with it, much less the bunch of volunteers trying to integrate it into a field system and run a regional. It is quickly leading to a situation where there are 2 distinct levels of teams. A small team that spends it's entire 6 week build time fighting with the control system instead of building an effective robot is quickly disappointed and won't be back once the "free" grants run out.

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

Umm... Wow, just wow. I can't believe what I have read here.

First off, field problems exist and always will. You cannot run a competition without a few hiccups. Of course, by what I've read, the whole regional was a big hiccup, but that's besides the point for the behavior exhibited here.

Why were their fights breaking out in a FIRST competition? I know it's a competitive competition, but there's no reason for violence or harsh language. Each and every team has their own enemies... but you should use that to your advantage and use the determination it gives you to make a better robot and to perform better on the team. I'm honestly ashamed that a FIRST team would behave this way, let alone more than just one team. It reflects bad on everyone. It makes me feel guilty that a fellow FIRST team would do this, yet I'm thousands of miles away and had nothing to do with the incident.

You should always leave race, religion, politics, etc... out the door at any competition or generally, any public event. I hate how all of those are such a deciding factor in everything we do today. The world would be such a better place if people kept all of this at home and not in the public. Of course, it doesn't work this way, and I see problems every day in America in the public and in the schools... even on our own team, but I don't let it get to me, and neither should anyone else. I think this is truly a problem that will fix itself if everyone just ignored it.

Anyway, I'm disappointed in all the teams that caused a fuss in the Israel Regional. I know the situation wasn't the best, but that's no excuse.

Remember, what you do reflects the image of every other FIRST team.

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

There were no fights and no violence. as stated above a team did walk on the field and sat on the bumps as a protest of what they deemed unfair behavior on the side of FIRST.
While this behavior is by no means acceptable, it is a far cry from being violent.

Agreed.

Again, agreed. Though I'd like to point again that this was a tiny minority and that the vast majority of teams displayed exemplary coolheadedness (is that a word? :confused: ) throughout a very stressful and disappointing regional event.

-Leav

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

I feel really bad for all of the teams and especially any first year teams member who were seniors, and therefore may never get to experience a good competition.

What about taking up the challenge of putting on the biggest and best off-season competition in the world? You could even call it IRI2 (Isreali Robotics Invitational). Get the bugs worked out and invite all of the teams back to do it right in the off season. No, it won't substitute for the real thing, but it will give teams the chance to compete at a high level. And who knows, it might turn out every bit as good as an official event (just look at the IRI).

Of course, that's easy for me to say sitting in my office 4000 miles away.

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

As I read this thread I couldn't help but feeling a bit angry at what happened.

I'm not angry towards the actions of team members, the lack of professionalism shown by some, or the protest towards the result of a tie. After reading into what happened, I cannot say that I would've been anymore professional in that situation, and I feel that a lot of the tension between teams and people were indirectly caused by issues on the field. (Long days full of frustration will begin to tire even the best people to the point of snapping.)

What makes me angry is this: We, (FIRST in the USA & Canada), have event after event, both on and off season and I've never heard of a Regional running so far behind that teams only got three matches. I almost feel like the Israel FIRST community has gotten the short end of the stick by not having the proper time to test and debug their unique version of the control system. (Never knew about the difference in radios) I feel like next year FIRST should aid in the Hosting of a Pre-Ship Scrimmage for the Israeli teams so that this can be avoided.

And the idea of having a match decided by a coin toss is something I cannot wrap my head around. I understand that a replay of a match would delay the event substantially, but deciding a match by a coin toss just doesn't seem like the way to go. I know that I would've been livid if I were on the losing side of this coin toss, and I actually applaud the team that chose to sit on the bump peacefully before going off the handle on those in charge.

Regardless, I think we as a FIRST community should do everything in our power to make sure that this NEVER happens again.

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

Sorry, but you are wrong. there was a fight between 2672's crowd and security. Our mentor was at the field at the time and tried to take pictures for future reference and he got punched by someone for no reason.

My team (3088) was part of the alliance that lost by a coin toss. yes, we were frustrated but i'm proud of my teammates for not losing their calm and not joining the mess that want there. Moreover, we talked to the great FIRST Israel staff and asked for their apology (even though we did nothing) and thanked them for all they did for us on those 3 days.

I'm proud of my teammates for playing fair all along, no matter if we were 50th in the 2nd day or 2nd in the 3rd day. We didn't join the "Misgav Rebellion" and kept our cool all the time, although a lot of bad things happend to us.
- 3076 ate our food, stole our drink cans, put their stickers all over our belongings, even though we told them not to. they even had the courage to ask us to take them to our alliance. GOD!
- A detonator was thrown into our pit and exploded after the event and some of our students were hurt. I hope that FIRST Israel will find the responsible and punish them as needed. Who brings firecrackers to a robotics event?!
- Our medallions were taken by another team (probably). When we came to take our medallions we found out that somebody already took them. What the hell?!
- As Jon said, the Coopertition award was not handed out, and we understand why. I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be ours...

Other highlights:
- 44 penalty in one game(!) (not ours)
- Our bot failed at almost every system we built so we cut down the whole thing and were left only with an unworking kicker, brilliant autonomous and strategies. We finished 2nd and we didn't even try to lose. As i mentioned we got to the semi's with 2672 and 3065. We picked them for strategic reasons, knowing only their bots, we didn't care who were the crews. it's a shame it ended that way...
- We respected the request of 1690 and 2630 not to pick them so they could be with each other. we are humans after all and this game is not only strategy for us, even though that could have been the most dangerous alliance ever. it's a shame how many teams tried to convince us to break that partnership just to make the life of others easier. it's a shame imo that 2672 did break that alliance in the end...
- We cheered for almost every team that was on the field, no matter on which side it was.

I hope that FIRST will di their HW for next year...

BTW:
Michelle Graf <3 (best MC in the world :P)

Re: disaster in israel regional
 

...I don't even know what to say.