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-   -   Defense? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84469)

Andy L 21-03-2010 00:27

Defense?
 
I went to my first regional for this year this weekend and I was very surprised at how easy it was to defend robots, but yet how few teams did it. I know in qualifications it's not good to defend to much, I don't want this thread to turn into an argument about that.

We had a few matches where we were 2v1 or even 3v1 with us being the 1, and we held our own while our team mates scored. The other big surprising thing was the teams that have broken/failing kickers that don't attempt to defend or show off any other aspects of their robots. Our strategy Thursday was offense, our strategy Friday and Saturday was defense, it put us at 20th in the rankings, but we caught the eyes of most of the top 10 teams at SVR I think.

Has anyone else noticed this? It just seems like teams are focusing on qualification points instead of their strong points

Nigel 21-03-2010 00:32

Re: Defense?
 
i for one know we always tried to coordinate it so that we had a good defender so that our middie could focus on feeding us and we could focus on what we were good at, scoring, and not have to worry about the other team outscoring us because we had a defender doing their job

EricH 21-03-2010 00:36

Re: Defense?
 
A rookie team in AZ was having trouble with their kicker working, but tried playing defense and did OK at it. I suggested that they focus on that, and try to get picked for elims, where defenders were needed. Turned out, they were picking instead, in the #5 slot, IIRC (they were seeded #7).

They weren't too bad playing D, as I recall.

bman 21-03-2010 00:58

Re: Defense?
 
lets put it his way
hot team+469 or 51+a decent midfield robot
without a strong defensive robot, they will score 20 or even 30+ points
in finals, you need defense
also, the best defense isnt pinning them or bumping robots around but rather simply getting between the offensive robot and the goal. look what the martians did at the kettering district finals rounds. perfect defense in my opinion

kjolana1124 21-03-2010 01:51

Re: Defense?
 
I personally feel that defense is very vital to the game this year, especially compared to last year. Last year, although there were alliances, it was a lot more "you do your thing and we'll do ours." This year, I like how there's a much larger teamwork aspect, but I digress.

Andy, our team did something very similar at WPI. We had a very strong defense. And, although it landed us a low ranking, it got us noticed for sure. I really feel like, if you're a really good defense robot, being in the top eight is almost hurting you. That's not to say that D bots are going to have to be submissive to the powerhouse scorers. I just personally feel that, unless you really really have something amazing to boast about, it's much more beneficial to be picked. Many teams feel like the need to be in the top eight, and will either compromise the ability to play well and look good to other teams to do so, or end up making the top eight in a lower seed, which could provide people with a strong disadvantage.

@bman, couldn't agree more. If you're a really good defense bot playing the far range against one other robot, that robot should not be able to score. I saw so many games where this happened simply because the robot would puppy guard the goals- and it worked. I know many people (on my team included) have this notion of pinning and shutting down the other robot based on previous games. But, as my friend Chris (Chris Is Me) told me the other day, the best defense in this game is an almost basketball-like strategy. Ie, keeping the ball away from their end and making possession difficult.

The strong alliances this year will only have one real super amazing scorer, as opposed to previous years. I feel like they'll have that scorer, a mid-field bot to get balls to your zone fast and keep them away from the other end (possibly crossing over to score if needed), and then that really good defense robot. And yes, Andy, I do think that most of those defense robots will be low in the rankings, just due to the fact that it's harder for them to control how many points are earned. I highly suggest teams looked at the bottom almost as much as the top. Kind of like Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade- you don't always want the super beautiful goblet. :)

Molten 21-03-2010 01:57

Re: Defense?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 940171)
A rookie team in AZ was having trouble with their kicker working, but tried playing defense and did OK at it. I suggested that they focus on that, and try to get picked for elims, where defenders were needed. Turned out, they were picking instead, in the #5 slot, IIRC (they were seeded #7).

They weren't too bad playing D, as I recall.

Perhaps that is some evidence you might consider changing your signature for. ;)

EricH 21-03-2010 02:22

Re: Defense?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Molten (Post 940193)
Perhaps that is some evidence you might consider changing your signature for. ;)

I was thinking of changing it anyway--to a comparison of the paths rules questions follow.:p

ExTexan 21-03-2010 10:32

Re: Defense?
 
Quote:

hot team+469 or 51+a decent midfield robot
without a strong defensive robot, they will score 20 or even 30+ points
in finals, you need defense
I'm in agreement with the need for defense and the best way to do it is back and forth in front of the goals.......however......with 469 or 51 in place and circulating, defense against 2 robots in your zone is nearly impossible.

Chris is me 21-03-2010 10:47

Re: Defense?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy L (Post 940167)
I went to my first regional for this year this weekend and I was very surprised at how easy it was to defend robots, but yet how few teams did it. I know in qualifications it's not good to defend to much, I don't want this thread to turn into an argument about that.

We had a few matches where we were 2v1 or even 3v1 with us being the 1, and we held our own while our team mates scored. The other big surprising thing was the teams that have broken/failing kickers that don't attempt to defend or show off any other aspects of their robots. Our strategy Thursday was offense, our strategy Friday and Saturday was defense, it put us at 20th in the rankings, but we caught the eyes of most of the top 10 teams at SVR I think.

Has anyone else noticed this? It just seems like teams are focusing on qualification points instead of their strong points

If you win a match 2 to 1, it is worse than losing 7 to 2.

Despite that, I somewhat agree. Defense isn't too hard to do with a good drive team, good drive base, and good robot. Defense wins Championships. Many teams also don't really have a knack for solid defense, while it seems yours does. Take advantage of that! Defense DOES have a place in quals, so play smart, use small amounts of effective defense, and you'll do well.

Here is one's daily reminder that pushing and defense are not synonymous.

Molten 21-03-2010 12:38

Re: Defense?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 940269)
If you win a match 2 to 1, it is worse than losing 7 to 2.

Only in seeding points.

cziggy343 21-03-2010 12:45

Re: Defense?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 940269)
If you win a match 2 to 1, it is worse than losing 7 to 2.

actually, after update 16, if you win a match 2 to 1, you get 8 seeding points... lose 7 to 2, you get 7.

but, there def is a place for defense in this game. a lock down defender in elims is crucial. we built our robot specificallly to play defense in elims. in quals, we do our best to play offense, even though we realize its not our "strong point"

Chris is me 21-03-2010 12:47

Re: Defense?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cziggy343 (Post 940323)
actually, after update 16, if you win a match 2 to 1, you get 8 seeding points... lose 7 to 2, you get 7.

but, there def is a place for defense in this game. a lock down defender in elims is crucial. we built our robot specificallly to play defense in elims. in quals, we do our best to play offense, even though we realize its not our "strong point"

make it 8 to 2 then, i was just trying to come up with random numbers

IKE 21-03-2010 12:58

Re: Defense?
 
At the Michigan district events, it seems like Friday is for scorinf points and seeding. If you are not in striking distance of the top 8, Saturday AM has been showcasing talents (like defense).

Defense was very important to the winners of Kettering. It sounds like defense was a huge factor of the champions at west michigan.

Alex Dinsmoor 21-03-2010 13:10

Re: Defense?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IKE (Post 940332)
At the Michigan district events, it seems like Friday is for scorinf points and seeding. If you are not in striking distance of the top 8, Saturday AM has been showcasing talents (like defense).

Defense was very important to the winners of Kettering. It sounds like defense was a huge factor of the champions at west michigan.

I completely agree with that!

Scouting on Saturday, it was obvious that teams were trying to show off their specialties so they could look good for picking. What I learned though, is that the best teams do what they do best for the entire competition. Take 1023 for example; they were playing amazing defense all weekend, and look at how that turned out :)

At Detroit, the effectiveness of defense in the elims was variable. There were teams who used defense to their advantage to help shut down other robots, but there were also the matches where teams would score the heck out of their goals and produce scores such as 13-13 or even 14-13.

It all depends on the alliance and who they are playing against. What we learned in the finals matches is that if someone is going up to hang before the finale to say redirect balls (51 ;) ) It would be best to play defense against them hanging rather than just trying to block goals up close.

BJC 21-03-2010 14:26

Re: Defense?
 
I think that when it comes to defense this year teams don't want to play it because they feel their ability would be better used elsewhere.

As a result I have yet to see a robot who consistantly plays good defense in the far zone AND can clear balls to the other side of the field.

It seems that for the most part once a ball enters either the near or far zone it stays there until it is scored.

My suggested stratigy is to have the "best" robot in the far zone, the second "best" in the middle and the third in the home zone . Then in teleop the "best" robot clears all the balls out of the far zone across the field into their home zone (their goal here would not be to score but to do this as fast as possible). Meanwhile, the third robot would join the second "best" in the middle in an effort to control the flow of balls in the middle (the third pick does not have help kick balls but can instead harass the middle oppenent robot this way that great third pick defender robot on the other alliance doesn't have anyone to guard and is effectivly useless). After all the balls in the far zone have been kicked down and the middle has been secured the "best" robot will join the other two in the middle to further assist in kicking balls into the home zone (again just as fast as possible, not to score) Then with a minute to forty seconds left the "best" and second "best" robots will go into their home zone and push balls in by the bucketload (instead of one at a time over the course of the match). The third robot would stay in the middle and continue to harrass the opposition. Finally, any robot who could would hang for bonus points.

This would throw teams off balance because generally the best teams play offencivly in the close or middle zones.
My 2 cents


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