Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Seems to me that this year, moreso than in the past, the dominant powerhouse veterans are winning the events. A number of the big name teams have utterly dominated their regionals.

67 is Champions at 2 events
217 is Champions at 2 events
25 is Champions at 1 event
148 is Champions at 1 event
254 is Champions at 1 event
1114 is Champions at 1 event

It just seems disproportionate to past years... is this year's game too easy?

(side note: team IFI is cleaning house, the constituent teams have won every event they've gone to).

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

You're somewhat correct. This game appears to be much easier than the last few games. Which is why I'm seeing more rookie teams making it into finals and even winning regionals.

Yes, the same "powerhouse" teams will dominate. I'm sure if the game was much harder, they would probably win the competitions anyway. But I'm sure most of them didn't start off all that strong.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

The list you gave seems entirely normal to me - those are teams that simply win year after year.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

By Week 3 last year:
67: Undefeated Champions at 1 event
217: Champions at 1 event
25: Off year
148: Champions at 1 event
254: Champions at 1 event
1114: Some pesky midwestereners got in the way.

By week 3 in 2008:
67: Not yet!
217: Champions at 2 events
25: Champions at 1 event
148: Champions at 1 event
254: Champions at 1 event
1114: Champions at 1 event

Considering you picked the powerhouse teams that did well to be on your list (confirmation bias), that's not a bad record in previous years. Powerhouse teams doing well isn't exclusive to Breakaway.

If you want to think positively, there are tons of teams in their breakout year this year. 1732 has always been competitive, but they won TWO back to back events this year. 2345's KC alliance won an event over 1625 and 16. 971 once again hit the ground running this year. I didn't even know who 2016 was until this year. 1676 has won two events in dominant fashion. That's a lot of new talent!

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Fill in the blank:
Available Choices:
Breakaway
Lunacy
Overdrive
Rack N Roll
Aim High
Triple Play
FIRST Frenzy
Stack Attack
Zone Zeal
...
Maize Craze

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I think I'm leaning the other way....this year's game is more difficult to achieve superiority. I was amazed at first, and even second, week how many bots just weren't all together. It takes an "A+" bot and practiced drivers to do what those teams are doing and I think a majority of teams started competition with "B" bots and drive teams that hadn't been able to practice.

But I think we will have a great MI state championship and great nationals. The emergence of the diversion strategy and the bots getting much better should make for some great matches. I think those teams you mention will not be running away at the end.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

The members of team IFI were plenty dominant prior to organized collaboration. It should come as no surprise that they continue to do so when working together :cool:

Here's some food for thought:

I looked at all of the Regional and District Event winners so far this year, and the #1 seeded alliance has won 64% of the competitions thus far. In fact, only once by my count has an alliance seeded worse than 3rd won the event (I apologize, I don't remember off the top of my head which competition that was).

I haven't had a chance to see how this compares to data from years past, but it seems that in 2010 more than ever the high seeds are winning (for example, team 341 has won 4 regionals in the past 4 seasons, and only once - this year - were we the #1 alliance).

IMHO, the field of really effective robots at most events thus far has been fairly shallow; only a handful of alliances seem to end up with prolific scorers and they tend to run away with the trophies. These teams are also aided by the seeding system this year - more than ever, I am seeing #1 seeds that are fairly predictable.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I noticed this. Even at a regional with 29 teams (WPI), the #1 seed faced the #2 in the finals. I thought that was really weird.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I actually think this makes more sense at a small regional. The field isn't very deep, so by the time the last seeds get to pick alliance partners there aren't any really strong teams left... the first few alliances end up being the strongest. At larger regionals and on the Championship fields, there is a much deeper pool to draw from, so there can be really strong teams left later in the selection process leading to a lot of well-rounded alliances that are all capable of winning.

In terms of the topic of this thread, I don't think this game is particularly easy for veteran teams over rookie teams. A lot of new talent has been discovered this year, and I've seen a lot of alliances that I might not have expected beforehand because of this.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I would suggest that the perrenial powerhouse teams are successful not because of their robot, or because of the game... but because of their team.

The work that goes in during the offseason in developing relationships with sponsors, finding new mentors, and building the team in general means that they are already miles ahead before build season ever starts.

These teams haven't been blessed with some magic ointment that makes them win... unless you consider sweat to be magic.

Jason

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Agreed. As teams finish/improve their robots and deeper fields show up later in the season, we may well see some more "upsets".

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I see what you're saying Chris, it just seemed like more than usual I could look at the entry list for a regional and pick out the high seeded team which would eventually win it, before the regional even started. Yes, I also realize each team IFI member was strong pre-collaboration, and it only makes sense that they are moreso now, but they're not infallible, they *can* be beaten. They just aren't being beaten.

EDIT: Jason, I totally agree, these teams are not great because of their robot or the game, but rather the team and their program. I just noticed what seemed to be alot of the regionals where there was one super-dominant powerhouse, and everybody else lagging some distance behind.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Could this have something to do with the new ranking system that actually puts the top teams in the top 8? At the events that I was at (WI and Midwest), I think the top 8 teams were generally the best teams at the regional. It seems to rank the teams better than in previous years.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I agree.

Breakaway is a simple game with simple rules.

Veteran teams who actually have any sort of spiral in their engineering process will be able to take advantage of that specific fact by designing something simple and perfecting it over ... and over ... and over. This was the primary reason I so fervently argued for my team to do 2 kickers instead of 1 kicker and hang -- one would be simple to play a simple game and the other would be complex for the complex strategies. It worked out for the most part; we simply need a better elims maintenance plan for the future :rolleyes: .

On another interesting note, to me it seems like there are more high-numbered teams in eliminations than ever -- teams with numbers ~2600+. And these teams don't go down during a lopsided match either!

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Powerhouse teams will always do good no matter what year. Some more often than others. But for GSR, no real powerhouse teams won. 78 and 121 (who have won 3 in the past 5 years) lost or were finalists along with teams 175,40,126,20 and a few others. Teams 1922, 1073, 1058, 1519us, 238, and others did really well at this years GSR. Powerhouses will always be powerhouses, but there are always teams right on their tails who can do just as good or better.

Teams 1922 and 1073 are really good!

And yes, a team's program also makes them a powerhouse on and off the field!

EDIT: I do understand that the teams I labelled as "powerhouses" are not as good as teams like 111,1114,254,1625,etc. but up here they are.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

After attending SD in week one, I realized one thing about Breakaway - this game is HARD.

This is my first year working with 115. 115 is one of the veteran teams in the Bay Area, the team has built quality robots and won regionals in the past. But after 3 weeks into build, we realized the team was in deep trouble. And I mean, real trouble. The kids spent 2 weeks designing hanging mechanisms that were too heavy and too impractical for our robot, mechanisms that are supposed to be 3rd or 4th priority on our list (Going over the bump, controlling the ball, and kicking was supposed to come first). That's when I realized the kids need some serious hands-on assistant to get them through the rest of build with a somewhat presentable robot.

I remember one night on week 4, after seeing the kids struggling with kicker mechanisms after kicker mechanisms, when I finally said, "Ok, I've had enough. What can we put together with this Bosch extrusion, an axle, couple of shoulder blocks, and this surgical tubing right here?" 30 minutes later, we put together a kicker that was far superior than anything the kids have done in the past 4 weeks.

It takes a tremendous amount of FIRST knowledge just to put together a reliable, decently preforming robot in a game. On our team, that consist of Ted Shinta, a machinist/woodshop teacher who has been a 115 adviser since 2000, Mauri Laitinen, a senior electrical engineer/programmer who has been on the team since 2006, Patrick Wang, former 115 2003 student president who studied economics in Berkeley and specialize in game strategy and coaching, and myself, a mechanical engineer who has participated in FIRST since 1999. All of that and we just barely put together a working robot that kicks and go over the bump well in week 5.

I went around the Bay Area for a little while trying to help teams who need mechanical assistance, and I spent a lot of time watching the competition at San Diego on week one. Let me say this again: this game is HARD. I thought we were struggling because our kids lack the proper training this year. Then I looked at the 25-26 teams at SD who were barely driving/herding balls around, and realized we were actually doing pretty well.

I am not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing, but compare to robots 10 years ago, we are finding ourselves needing to build more and more sophisticated robots each year. I am having a great time building robot for this year's game, but I can see how others are struggling with it if they don't have proper resources on their team.

I think that's why the game is so hard for many teams out there. There are so much you need to learn/do if you want to compete with the likes of 217, 148, 1114, 254, 330, etc. It takes a huge amount of experiences and knowledge to do it, and it's almost impossible to do without the right people. Give me 10 minutes, and I can write down all the names of people directly responsible for the success of these teams.

Again, I am not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing. I am just saying that's how it is. Personally, after spending this season learning how this team works, I have no problem stepping up the game and try to compete at the higher level next year. But a lot of teams are going to be struggling again, if the game is going to be just as hard next year.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Ken, I agree 100%. This game is VERY VERY hard.

1. Creating a kicker that is adjustable, can rewind quickly, is consistent in kicking distance and robust is hard.
2. Creating a ball magnet system that can reliably hold balls is very, very hard. There are only a couple designs out there right now that do it, and those designs are propagating through the competitive teams. You've got the roller system (semi effective but relatively easy) pioneered by the 17XX ball magnet boys, the pinch system that 148 posted and so many people copied, and the vacuum system on a couple bots.
3. Creating a lifting mechanism is even harder within the given constraints - low COG, etc.
4. At least a decent drive train in combination with the above.

So far I've only seen a handful of bots combine those into a winning combination, and they ARE running away with things.

Think back to '07. There were hundreds of very different and effective ways to hang tubes. Think to '08. Forklifts, arms, firing mechanisms - there were many many bots that could gets those balls over quickly. Think to '09. Dumpers were a dime-a-dozen, incredibly effective, and generally easy to make.

In '10, you have to at least a combination of a good kicker + drivetrain, but you're going to get overlooked without a magnet. Likewise, a +2 points per match hanger is a pretty big thing if you can manange it. Just look at how many robots out there have managed to combine all three effectively and then tell me again how easy this game is. In the early week games, it wasn't uncommon for half the bots on the field to be unable to kick, and nearly NONE moved in auton.

Pushing balls into the goal is reasonably easy (except for the outside edges where balls get stuck on the goal). Any other facet of this game simply isn't.

Going into the middle of week 4, our team was in serious trouble. Our kicker was functioning well, but our magnet was DOA and our hanger not much better off. It took a herculean effort to get it into the bag. Indeed, our comp bot had NEVER been driven on the competition field before it went in. We ended up chucking most of our autonmous (we never moved at Cass Tech) in favor of getting the basic systems functioning well.

It's all just opinion of course, but this has been the hardest game to we've dealt with in the last 5 years on 1718.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

even this wasn't always terribly easy to do WELL :p

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

What we found is that a good magnet may even be more effective than a good kicker. If you have an amazing kicker with a crappy magnet they may not get chosen over a team with an awesome magnet but only a so-so kicker. Magnets let you score, while kickers can only guarantee ball movement.

And with the hanger, yes it is a good point boost if you have one, but more realistically many teams look for an effective scorer over a hanger; since a scorer can put more balls in than the hanger in most cases.

That's what I think at least.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

A team does not achieve "Powerhouse" status by dominating every once in a while... they achieve that status by consistently dominating every year.

Under their current leadership 148, 217, 254, 1114, etc will continue to dominate regardless of what game it is. That's what makes them powerhouse.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

This seems very true. In St. Louis this past weekend... it wasn't until the 5th pick that someone who wasn't already an alliance captain (would have been if they said no) was selected. And to think prior to that i told my new members that we've never seen anyone ranked worse than 10th get to actually pick...

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

This is very true.
One thing that I think is a little different concerning the teams mentioned is that they have become Team IFI in their minds and in others. They are like a super team made up of different parts (teams). With the way it is going, they haven't begun to max out the level of skill, talent, opportunity, or finding a bar to set for themselves, individually, or as Team IFI.

That is different from the majority of other teams, I think.

Jane

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I agree with everything above, but I have to think that if people think this game is "easy" and that veteran teams are dominating, then we have to think about the challenges that the GDC has to accomplish each year.

The longer these veterans play, the more experience they gain. The more they become familiar with what it takes to play the game and what it takes to build a good robot and a good team. Rookie teams are scared by the fact that they have to create something "moving", much less anything that dominates.

At kick-off last year, the GDC addressed their attempt to bridge the gap between veterans and not-so-veterans. While the GDC does their thing and provide new, fresh games each year, powerhouse teams continue to build their arsenal.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I agree with Ken, Tom, and whoever else said this game is hard. Fitting a good ball magnet and kicker into a package that can either fit through the tunnel or climb the bumps is not an easy challenge. I have seen many traditional powerhouse teams struggle at their first & second events and get whipped in the eliminations in what some would consider an upset if they were just looking at team numbers. I have also seen the rise of a few teams at WI & IL that have built simple machines that focused on excellent ball control and an efficient kicker: 706, 1732, 2949.

That said, what is wrong with traditional powerhouse vets dominating? I had a lengthy discussion with some of the mentors from 2358 after they beat us in the eliminations on Saturday. We were talking about their first year in the program and the struggles they had and how much they've improved since then. I was reminded of the struggles that 111 had during our first season in 1996 and how my jaw hit the floor when at our first competition I saw the team from Nashua effortlessly scoop up big & small balls and place them in the goal. Sure, it was disappointing when our robot couldn't even make it through an entire match without the drivetrain failing, but it was also uplifting to talk to these elite teams and have them offer suggestions to fix our problems. It's experiences like these, seeing the cream of the crop up close, talking to them about their designs, and learning from them, that give the young teams the motivation and inspiration to become a powerhouse in a few years.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I think it's pretty amazing how many teams seemed to have underestimated the importance of -- and the subtlety of design required for -- a good ball handler. I spoke to many teams who almost seemed to consider it an afterthought.

We considered it #1 priority after drive train, and we're really glad we did!

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

no way, this year is seeing more first time regional winners then i can remember. With the new scoring system it lets teams be ranked more on their performance then their alliance partners.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I absolutely agree - the teams that dominate will continue to dominate and that's ok, and actually inspiring for most of us. Much of our team, while a little jealous of the dominating teams, are so fired up after these competitions to perfect the engineering process for the next year. While they may not come right out and say it that way, that's what they are talking about. How do we do what the poofs did? How can we tweak our process to get to that level. It's a conversation I enjoy hearing. Thank you to those teams!!

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I agree that there are teams that are perennial powerhouses; 1114, 111, 67, etc. In reality, veteran teams have a huge advantage over rookies - especially the "Power House" teams - as they have developed a systematic approach over many years to develop effective strategies and then executing decisively - younger teams lack the experience of prior competitions and are generally not as well prepared. That being said, I offer 3138 for your consideration as an example which refutes your claim:

- Rookie team with no FRC experience on the team at all, mentors or students!
- KISS design which performed quite well in Pitt until wheel issues in the finals hurt them, which they were not prepared for - rookie mistake they will not make this week at Buckeye, I would bet.
- #4 seed at Pitt, picked by the #2 alliance and competed well against 1114's alliance into the finals.
- Rookie All Star - they will be in Atlanta, based on thier performance, while several other veteran teams failed to get a bid...

Every year we see some teams execute flawlessly, but I don't agree that this year offers any advantage to vets that is not normally present...

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Sure, Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets - just like any other game. That's why we call them powerhouse teams. A lot of other teams are doing pretty well with it, though.

Building a robot is kind of like the old scoring system they used for figure skating. If you recall that system, the skater got two scores - one for artistic impression and the other for technical merit. In robotics, you spend the first week or so brainstorming, modeling, prototyping, sketching, imagining how the game will play out, and envisioning the kind of machine would be effective at playing it. Your ingenuity is the "artistic impression". The remainder of the build season is spent to achieve the goals you set with a machine that is reliable, servicable, and robust. Your craftsmanship is the "technical merit". Good teams do both parts well.

Every year, there seems to be some feature that separates the successful teams from the rest. In 2008, the hurlers dominated the hurdlers. In 2009, the dumpers dominated the shooters.

In 2010, ball control is shaping up to be that feature. Some teams do it better than others, but teams that didn't foresee the value (artistic impression) and then achieve some degree of success (technical merit) will struggle to go far.

When teams get both parts right, they have a good year on the field. The perennial powerhouses have the brainpower, experience, and resources to get it right year after year.

Students win when they fully participate in an organization that uses, tests, rewards, and freely shares both aspects of the creative process.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Every year teams worry about the "cool" features of the robot, like the hanger, kicker, ball shooter, etc. Unfortunately, those are rarely the most important things on the robot. How good is a "perfect" kicker if the robot can't grab a ball? The better teams are the ones who understand the pyramid shaped set of design dependencies we see in each and every game, and mold their robot around what is REALLY important, rather than what SEEMS important at first glance.

If you want to learn more about how to do this, I recommend checking out the panel discussion at the FIRST Robotics Conference in Atlanta this year. There should be a ton of useful insight to be had there.

All in all, these robots aren't rocket science. If you work hard enough and gain enough experience, you can compete with the best.




...Or you can pull a Tom and follow the old homage of "If you can't beat em, join em." :)

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I'd like to point out two fundamentals that the perennials always have...

1. Well trained drive teams, pit crews and strategists.

2. Good, solid, well built robots.

All of the clever mechanical mechanisms or software routines will do you no good if your robot breaks or your team can not function effectively.

JHMO,

Mike

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I think it is worth noting that the Bobcats have made it to Einstein every year since 2006.* This is probably good advice!

*As far as I can tell, no one else can claim this. 148, 217, 1114, 67, 25 have all fallen short at least once. Now that folks, is consistency. :cool:

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Maybe. Just build a better robot to stop them and then you won't feel that way.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Pink is a traditional powerhouse and this was the first time they went unpicked in the elimination rounds.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

The one thing i think everyone is missing about why vets are on a higher footing than rookies is that they have to foresight because of their past experiences to know what the most beneficial accomplishments/tasks will be and, thus, they will start out a page ahead.

For example: in the 2 competitions I have been to, I have yet to see a rookie with a way to keep the ball in front of the robot why they kick it. And as we have seen ball control is key if you want to score, but it makes it near impossible to kick a ball into the goal from any sort of distance.

I'm also not saying that vets necessarily are always are able to identify these hidden design complications. BUT the "Powerhouse Vets" will find the hidden design complications every time (If they are to remain Powerhouses), mostly because they have great prototyping skills and methods.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Just thinking about this concept I find myself at a slight loss as to how the GDC would make a game that the traditional powerhouse teams would do worse comparitively to the rookie teams.

Scenario A: Make a very simple straightforward game, thus theoretically nulling extra years of experience.

Result of A: The powerhouse teams develop simple, but highly effective robots, and perfect them obsessively until competitions. Thus, while newer teams still put out great robots, the highest ranked team's ranks remain roughly static.

Scenario B: Make a very bizzare, and new style game (like lunacy with the regolith) with the intention that rookie teams will have an easier time adapting to the new challenge.

Result of B: The skilled teams have the resources and experience to adapt to the changing environment, while the new teams struggle to meet a challenge through a process that they have little experience with.

If I missed a scenario feel free to post one. As it is I prefer scenario A (which I consider breakaway to fall under) as it makes for very exciting, easy to understand games. This fact also makes it better from a spectator standpoint as well.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I've found that good drivers trump ball magnets. Our robot doesn't have a ball magnet at all, but our driver is amazing. More important than being able to hold on to a ball is to be able to position your robot to actually get to a ball, or just push one in.

In the last 20 seconds of BMR, our alliance won by out scoring our opponents 3-2, they hung, we herded balls into the goal. No ball magnet, no kicker, just driving.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

While true (and congrats), with only 12 scoring opportunities on the ground at any given time, why would anyone choose not to open as many of them as possible with a magnet? You basically need a magnet or vac to peel balls off walls, and that's where at least half the balls go...

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

#1 alliance won 57% of the first 3 week events in 2009.
I had a thread about #1 success last year and I've attached the spreadsheet (which is no longer attached to the thread for some reason)

It ended the year at 50% success overall for #1 alliances. 75% of FiM #1 alliances won and 45% for the rest of #1. In events with greater than 50 teams, #1 won 41%, and at smaller events, 58%. In week 1 last year 75% of #1 seeds won.

Like this time last year, #1 has won all 3 FiM districts. I dont expect the small/large event splits to be as drastic because of the new seeding. In the old seeding system you pretty much had to be undefeated to seed #1 because of the low number of matches. A tough draw could ruin a good teams chances and mediocre teams were much more likely to coast to #1 with a favourable schedule. My final prediction on that thread was correct, only 1 #1 alliance made it to Einstein.

After TU16 fixed the seeding system, the seeding results have been excellent in my observation, better than last year. I've see more picking among the alliance captains in the last 2 weeks than I can remember. The system forces you to produce, not just win to seed in the top spot. Those tough hard fought losses to a superior alliance that once removed any hope of a #1 seed are now worth more than ugly 1-0 wins. Teams can improve and rise like a bullet after early struggles. I still dont like the losers geting the winner's score, but I cant argue with good results.

One storyline I am looking forward to this week is:
Will the #1 seed win Philly?
A #1 seed hasn't won Philly since 2001 when the game was played 4v0. There is similar depth at the top and in the field at Philly this year, that would suggest similar parity. However, I am predicting that this is the year a #1 allaince will win Philly.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Our robot doesn't have a problem getting balls on the wall... in fact I believe that we're faster at getting balls off the wall than many teams with ball magnets... especially balls in the corners.

I remember one match where we put our robot up against the wall, and drove straight to the goal, scoring 4 balls at once.
To be perfectly honest, we tried adding a ball magnet near the end of the season but scrapped it due to weight, I don't think that's held us back at all.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Too easy? This is likely the hardest game from FIRST that I've ever played in my last 9 seasons. If anything, it favors the powerhouses because they have the talent and raw personal to get all the big jobs done.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I agree that this years game is difficult for BOTH rookie teams and smaller teams to handle - especially if they try to accomplish too much, as our team likely did, and then don't prioritize realistically. Just getting so many systems built was a struggle, forget about testing, troubleshooting and improving them.

As a rookie mentor of a rookie team, at least I had five seniors who had previously been part of a cooperative team (doing electronics & programming mostly), I initially had to rely, perhaps too much, on their past experiences, rather than my own (zero) mentor experience. Being understandingly eager to make a big impact with having their own team - the Robotic Colonels went for a high speed, high traction, high power, short wheelbase, maneuverable, hump climbing tank drive, 4-wheeled bot. They then opted for a full-field capable variable winder high velocity kicker. Ball control was a last minute afterthought, and hanging seemed to be the only thing they could finally abandon as reality started to set in.

With just 11 team members and many of these only part time, it seemed that the work could just not progress fast enough. There was too little time for doing good design, and NO TIME for building bad designs. Doing a mostly hand-tool built bot with the only additional tooling being the the drill press and metal band saw of the school's wood shop, proved very tedious and time consuming. The kicker was really turning into quite a monster as it went from wood prototype to metal.

We finally got focused on the drive system enough to get something we could actually drive by late in the 3rd week after finishing the electronics board, and it then took all of about 3 days more before we broke it driving over our hump. Those dual CIM super shifters on each side proved to be way more powerful than the framing and gearbox mounting scheme could handle. So we finished week three scrambling to rebuild the entire drive with a several fold beefier mount structure for the gearboxes and the wheel wells. By the time we finished this, everything else was bogging down to a standstill.

The seniors were starting to see another year's ship day arriving and a half-built bot scenario again looming over them, so most of the team really kicked up their effort. Meanwhile, we still had no mounted kicker, only winder parts, a marginal trigger idea that was only half built, no pneumatics, and our failed vacuum scheme leaving us with no ball control, but at least all thoughts of doing a hanger were long gone.

Only by the 65 pound withholding miracle would we have been able to have anything more than a minimally functional bot for the Midwest regional. Still, without a CAD model, and still having to finish making so many tight fitting hardware items with no robot to measure, nearly killed us. The bumper mounts would not fit either, we ended the first day with only the ability to drive fast and push balls poorly. Our pneumatics were only intermittently shifting gears, but they would not fire the kicker trigger at all, and the winder was barely 2/3 assembled.

We entered qualification rounds thinking we might at least defend well. We next found out that the added weight of pneumatics and winder h/w had now also made us too rear heavy to make it over the humps, so we just focused on learning how to drive what soon proved to be an exceptionally well performing tank drive scheme. As Day 2 progressed, it was clear our stellar drive performance let us get to locations quickly enough to harass the more nimble swerve and mecanum bots, to the point of neutralizing much of their scoring and other capabilities, by effectively pushing them away from where they wanted to be or go. In the pits we struggled to finish assembly while troubleshooting multiple pneumatic valve problems, a winder encoder failure, adding ball control, dealing with penalty producing problems,,,

So by the end of Day 2, being still unable to kick or control balls, sitting at 29th position, we were not expecting to make it into the elimination rounds. Since we were also attending the Northstar Regional in two weeks, we began focusing on what we needed to do to have a better working bot by the 2nd day there. We even thought we should maybe decline any alliance invitations to better use the time for fixing our bots shortcomings.

Day 3 begins, and what happens next? We complete our remaining elimination matches and only to find out we've jumped ahead some in the standings. We then end up being picked to be with Wildstang and Winovation -- How can we decline? Now we have to refocus. How can we up our game? Can we bail on position encoded kicker winding and go to timed winding scheme? Will our untested winder-kicker stay out too long if we activate it? Can we improve our ball pushing, or even get our basic ball magnet installed in time? What about all the things coming loose on our bot? Can we tighten up the ship enough to avoid penalties. One of our four chains seems to have started getting looser with each match, and we don't have time to shim the gearbox properly. Can it survive into the finals?

We weren't exactly expecting to be under this much pressure for Day 3. We really appreciate all the help and parts sharing that sustained us throughout the competition, and allowed us to accomplish much more that would have otherwise been possible. These are the times that make you feel really glad you are a participant in FIRST program. I look forward to days when a less stressful pit scenario may allow me to also help some other teams a bit too.

So we complete as many critical bot tunings as we can, and then proceed to make it with our veteran partners past the quarter finals and into the semifinals. At this stage is when things start going downhill, as multiple failures start hitting all the members of our alliance. In our final match we shatter one sprocket and rip the pieces right off the wheel breaking the chain as well.

Finally, getting back to the question posed in the thread though, it does seem to me that Breakaway is a very challenging game, especially for the rookies, but also quite challenging for even many of the powerhouse veteran teams. Making it to the finals demands a lot of capabilities in your bot and a good synergy of these capabilities within the alliance. Plus, the individual bot breakdowns must be avoided or handled swiftly, and any multi-bot breakdowns in alliances quickly spells doom. Between the field bumps and the high traction/velocity collisions, it also seemed like there was a lot of damage and disruption of robot functionality at the Midwest Regional.

Despite getting knocked out in the semifinals, even with two powerhouse vets as our partners, we were able to end up receiving the Midwest Rookie All Star award! Now we have to see if we can switch our trip plans from going to Minneapolis to going to Atlanta instead! Not a bad problem to have.

-Dick Ledford

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

I could have sworn your team, MOE, and Robbie Extreme won as a #1 seed in 2005.

Were you actually the #2 seed?

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

A small aside: the play on the field is excellent but the excellence off the field is what helps garner awards such as the Rookie All Star Award. Teams like Exploding Bacon, FRC 1902, can share their Rookie All Star year and experiences with you. They were amazing then and are amazing now - and in their 5th year as an FRC team, they garnered the Chairman's Award at the Florida Regional this season. I think that is really super awesome, but I remember their rookie year and the impact they made on FRC, immediately.

The great thing about being a rookie team is that you are a rookie team and every experience is new and challenging. The other great thing about being a rookie team is that you are only a rookie team once. Next season - you become a veteran team with a year's experience under your belt. It will still be new, and a lot of young teams make the mistake of thinking they know it all, having been through it once or twice. Nope. We never know it all. That's part of being an FRC team.

Good luck at the Championships and enjoy it!

Jane

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

1184 was #1 seed, 365 was #2, and 56 was #3.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Dick,

Wow, that was a great story. I don't believe I made it all the way through a post that long, but it was so interesting that I couldn't stop reading.

You guys had one of those experiences this year that will make you either: a) quit FIRST and never look back because it's too stressfull and time consuming, or b) hook you for life. It sounds like you guys might be leaning toward (b).

Experiences like that are some of the best experiences in all of FIRST. It often is the first time that any of the students would get to experience having something start out as a disappointment, and then have it become a success as a result of hard work and effort. That experience can provide great inspiration thoughout their lives as they face seemingly insurmountable challenges in their future.

I hope to see you guys in Atlanta - maybe I can beat a little sense into you about this rule change thing (just kidding - I'm laughing from typing that, so I hope you find that funny)

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

#2 seed, won with56 and 316. 1185 was #1, picked 103, lost in semis to #4 293 and 358.

This led to some confusion in the finals. The #2 alliance played the first match as the Red Alliance (which didn't seem weird seeing as we were higher seeded than #4). However, that's not how the scoring system worked at the time and since we were from the right side of the bracket we were supposed to be Blue. So we played the next match as the Blue Alliance . That is the only time I've ever seen alliances switch colours mid round.

After winning last year as the #6 seed with 395, 365 and 56 have now won Philly 3 times on the same alliance. This includes #1 seeded alliance in '01, the last #1 seed to win it.

Of course your Bobcats (177) have contributed to this string of upsets by winning Philly in '04 and '06. I think your team loves being the Blue Alliance, the underdogs that will out-strategize the field.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

This must be what I'm rembering. I knew there was something weird about that one.

Us, never...
Although we do have a history of doing well from the 8th seed.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

As Dick was saying as part of his story, I'd like to point out that an alliance consisting of 111, 1625, and 3135, two of which are some of the biggest names at the Midwest regional, and one of which I could tell was one of the strongest rookie teams out there, got beaten by an alliance consisting of no teams with a number lower than 2300, all of which were just fairly solid bots with a good driver behind each one.

If there has ever been a year where the GDC has successfully leveled the playing field for all teams, those two semifinals matches would suggest that this is that year.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Yes, its funny, and I've already taken enough beatings here at CD on that one to at least come to appreciate all views on it.
Thanks for the encouraging feedback on the story. I wanted to give people the feel of what could happen during a regional as far as turning the tide in the face of asversity, as well as the extent to which all levels of teams are being challenged by the Breakaway game this year.

-Dick Ledford

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Dick, I have to say that I understand you.
We were on a very similiar situation this year.

We are a second year team (low number because our school's team was closed and we reopened it after 4 years).
We are 9 people in the team with only 4 who really work.
Our mentor was the worst mentor ever - he "came to visit" us twice in the beginning of the build season and than left us - leaving us four students with no teachers,parents, mentors - no one.
We tried building whatever we can until end of week 3.
We looked at our robot and decided to start all over, and do something better.

After another 3 weeks of everyday, 24/7, working, we finished it.
We had a pneumatic-elastic kicker, mecannum drive and a roller ball magnet.

We got to #15th seed (out of 55) and didn't move on to the elimination matches, but at list i know we can build a fully-functional robot without any help :)

This year, both build season and the regional, was a life changing year. We will continue with FIRST for the third year for sure!

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

The way I see it, its a matter of knowing how to play the game. Most of the robots I have seen in NJ and VA have similar kickers, and some of them kick the same distance as others. With that said, I feel that this game depends more on strategy and pre-match meetings than how the robot is designed. For hanging, that's a completely different. Obviously the powerhouses are dominant in FIRST (hence why the are called powerhouses), but there is a lot of potential for other rookie teams, and a good start is a good base strategy. Some drive practice doesn't hurt as well.

I'm just basing my opinion on what our team did and what I have seen this year.

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

Mori1578,
Wow, that's an unbelievably amazing accomplishment! It shows that commitment and dedication are the main driving ingredients for completing a FIRST bot build. An what better lesson is there to learn about life than this? Lacking those aspects, even bigger, more experienced and better mentored teams often fail miserably. Hope your stellar effort attracts more team members and more serious mentoring efforts next year. All the Best!

-Dick Ledford

Re: Am I the only one that thinks that Breakaway is a game for the powerhouse vets?
 

From what I know of powerhouse teams, they have a great attitude.

They work harder than most teams do, they don't necessarily have more manpower (some I know are a group of 5-6 core students and mentors), and they never settle.

There is no way you could "level the playing field" without making hard work illegal. When an elite team wins, I am satisfied knowing that someone worked hard, and was rewarded for it.