Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Not really. As far as my post goes, it was the first 6v0 match i watched and the use of team numbers was a brain fart. I didn't realize that Paul was getting so much grief over this thing. I was trying to get across my disdain for the rules this year and to look at the larger picture. Everyone in this little world called FIRST should by this time know the rules and what is acceptable. What about all the people we are supposed to introduce to FRC? It is to different for the general public. People will not get it out of their head that it looks like someone is taking a dive. What about the other teams involved? If it is agreed on before hand by all six teams, so be it. Now what about a forced 6v0? What if one of those teams had some new defense they wanted show off or it was their last match or,or,or.
I really hate these rules.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Agreed. It seems, as always, that FIRST succeeded in some ways (bumper colors are great) but failed in others - the scoring system. For a game they claim they want to toward 'watchability', it's completely insensible to promote teams scoring on themselves against their own alliance.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

2010: game watchability = epic fail ... Thanks alot seeding system

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I would like to ask you to point out a match at Detroit where the seeding system took away from the value of the game.

There isn't one.

Just because one team can direct balls into their goal is making this game boring? I think you need to watch the other 60+ matches and decide that for yourself.

Honestly, if you ask anyone on my team about watching 469 play (or any similar redirecting bot), they would love to watch them play. In fact everyone I know who came to troy as a spectator wanted to watch 469 play because they were so good. 6 vs 0 or not. I myself actually found some of these 6 vs 0 matches interesting because of the strategy that they use to bring the balls to one alliances goal. Seeing 6 teams working together to achieve an insanely large score can lead to a moment of awe when you see how well they all work together.

Before you make such a rash claim about this year's seeding system you really need to look at the larger picture, and not just a handful of matches.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Let's all just agree to not attack the teams that are playing by the rules and taking advantage of a screwed up seeding system, and just complain about the system - NOT the teams!

I'll just use the example, "Who would pay to go to a basketball game and watch 10 guys all shooting in the same basket?" I think I'd watch this "shoot around" for maybe 5 minutes and leave and ask for my money back. Wouldn't you? I don't think that's what the GDC had in mind when they invited entertainment professionals to the team to help make it more fan-friendly. Let's face it, they did a LOT of things right, though. The scoring is simple, the game is extremely simple to understand, and it can be very, very exciting to watch, so it's not all bad!

What could they do to fix it? I thought about suggesting a change from +5 for winning to a larger amount which would make it numerically more towards a W/L/T seeding system. However, it doesn't address the real problem with the system and here it is... Why is the losing team rewarded for how well the winning team did? Nobody has ever answered that fundamental question! Imagine a match where all three robots against 469 don't show up. They could get 25 seeding points! What? It would take most teams 2 or 3 victories to equal that and they didn't even have to show up! Whoa! On top of that, not everyone gets to play against them so the people that pull one or worse yet two matches against them have a huge unfair advantage in the seeding over those that don't.

I think the solution is simple. Give the losing alliance their own points, and take away the +5 if you want. Now everyone is rewarded for how well they do - gee, doesn't that just make sense? 8 to 3 match? Winners get 14 (8 plus 2 x 3), losers get 3. Sounds good! Now, I'm playing to win! 15 to 0 match? Winners get 15 losers 0. Sounds good! Guess I better put *some* points on the board! Don't show up? No points. Fair! Now everyone plays every second to score, score, score! Hmmm. That sounds like every other successful sport ever invented! Maybe we shouldn't buck the trend here?

There's still time before Atlanta. :)

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

To beat an alliance having 469 on it, the opposing alliance must have a combonation of 3 robots who can all score, and defend when nescessary. In match 57 of the Troy District Teams 573, 3302, and 2832, had an alliance that worked almost well enough. 573 went into the tunnel in autonomous while 2832 cleared their defensive zone. 3302 was disabled for the Whole match. 2832 held 469 and their partners to 6 points for about 90 seconds. When 573 moved out of the tunnel they felt they could score enough in that short time to win. The final score was 6-5 with 469 winning. However, there were 5 points in penalties for the red alliance and 573, 3302, 2832 won 5-1.:) 573 were the first team to block 469 and many other teams did so after. Watch out for 469 to have a new autonomous program at states!

Here is the match http://www.youtube.com/user/team573#p/a/u/1/FA0FSXlvf_Q

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I agree with Alex; you must not have seen many matches. Detroit 2010 was by far the most exciting and sit-on-the-edge-of-your-seat competition I've seen since my rookie year.

(the following comments are directed towards the general audience, and not in response to BJC's post)

If 469 is on the field and it's NOT a 6v0 match, some of the defense that the opposing alliances put up was amazing to watch (the most obvious being 33 in the Troy finals). If it's 6v0, then seeing the non-469 alliance creatively get balls to the other end of the field and score goals is also quite a show.

No matter how you play the cards, this game is worth watching. Even if 5 robots lose comm during a match, watching that 6th robot continue to herd, kick, and score by themselves is exciting. Even if the box-on-wheels robots are on the field and the match ends 1-0, seeing those robots overcome their weaknesses is enough to make spectators realize what FIRST is all about. There's always action, and always something exciting to watch, you just have to look for it. Just because a team ISN'T a powerhouse doesn't mean that they can't play an exciting game.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I'm very torn about this scoring system. Our team played very well at the Troy District event, but did not get chosen for an alliance as the 18th ranked team. I don't have any problem with any decision any team has made with regard to how they implement their strategy to utilize the vagaries of the rules. I didn't meet a person on any team at that event that I felt had anything less than a deep commitment to the BIG goals of FIRST. The teams that have received criticism for their strategy have been unfairly singled out, in my opinion, for simply acting within the rules in the best interest of their teams.

That said, these rules introduce a lot of distortions into the seeding that I had never anticipated, even under the 6 v. 0 scenario people have been talking about. It is not a stretch to say that had we been scheduled against our good friends on Team 469, we could have decided to operate with them to build a lopsided score. An additional 20 or so seeding points in a loss would have boosted us to somewhere in the neighborhood of 11th. Our team plays good defense, can score in the near zone, improved with every match, and suffered only 1 malfunction in 12 matches. I can't help but think that an epic loss would have ironically given us a shot at continued play on Saturday.

I look forward to this weekend at the state championship. Our kids feel great about doing what we set out to do, but slightly disappointed nonetheless. And if we are faced with matches against very strong teams this weekend, I honestly don't know what to suggest our students should do.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

The seeding system has me torn as well, and that is coming from a team that was "carried" into a higher rank. Team 3421 had a good event, especially considering some of the struggles they've had this season. Any scout can tell you, 3421's bot spent a lot of time flipped over, both on and off the field.* We finished the qualifications ranked 14th, largely because of our alliance partners.

Regardless of seeding, I found Troy to be a very enjoyable event and plan on returning. Due to the efforts and support of everyone there, I believe that both the students and mentors of 3421 walked away with a better understanding of what FIRST is truly about. I couldn't have asked for a better learning experience for a rookie team. Thank you!


*The bot came in at 49lbs. In an attempt to "beef up" our robot, we even made a trip to the school's weight room and borrowed a 20 pound weight to attach! Thank you teams 217, 68, 2960, the inspectors, volunteers, and anyone else who helped us out!

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Sorry, actully enjoy watching this years game alot. I was more refering to when people who don't really know how everything works watch a 6 vs. 0 match, especially with FIRST trying to become more well known and get new people involved. It is very hard for me to explain to parents on our team that come to watch why that team is scoring on themselves and why that is actully better for them.

So to rephrase, Game = Awesome Scoring System = Not Awesome

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I think the 2010 seeding system does a better job of ranking teams by robot "goodness" than a straight W/L/T system can. It takes into account the strength of opponents in a reasonably simple way.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Play within the rules and do whatever you need to do to get your team the most seeding points!

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I have noticed that also. No longer will a team get carried to a very high rank because of good alliance partners. They will have to preform well to get their rank.

Although a team could be carried if their opponents scored a ton in each match of theirs, that is highly unlikely since the random sorting system mixes the good and bad teams pretty well. Also because they would have to lose by a LOT every time.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Proof that something's wrong with the seeding algorithm can be demonstrated that after 8 matches at Troy, a team that did NOT show up placed ahead of us.

What???

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

If a team didn't show up they shouldn't receive any seeding points.

It should also be noted that this happened with W/L/T as well in games not named Lunacy.