Troy Athens Regional
 

I just had a vision today and I wanted to share it with you all.

I know the outcome of the Troy Regional. This is what will happen:

The Thunderchickens, being the amazing team that they are, will qualify second. The only thing preventing them from qualifying first will be minor technical difficulties that cause them to lost several qualification matches on Friday, but these problems will be fixed by Saturday. The #1 seeded alliance will then choose the Thunderchickens over 469 to break up the possibility of a mega-alliance.

In the Quarterfinal and Semifinal matches, the Thunderchickens and their alliance will win both games of the double elimination easily. In the finals, however, they will win their first game against 469's alliance 17-3 (they will successfully stop 469 from using their mechanism) but will stumble in the second game, losing 9-6. This will be due to 469's pure awesomeness. In the final match of the day, team 217 the Thunderchickens will lead their alliance in scoring and they will come out on top, 15-8.

Good luck at the Troy Regional, Thunderchickens.



**Has anyone else experienced any revalation similar to this one?

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

i do not agree 217 and 469 will pick each other but will have a tough battle in the finals by alliance 33 and 573. but don't forget about 503 and 910 who will all put up tough fights can't wait to see it :cool:

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

this was discussed at my lunch table the other day, Troy should be an exciting competition. 862 plans on having a small group there saturday so look for us :D

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

67 plans on having a perhaps rather large group of people there to watch on Saturday. I hope there's room!

I think that any good offensive team (33, 217, 573, 910) can win it all with 469. I also think that 217 will have a much harder time ranking #1 than they did at Cass Tech, and that 33 with their improvements or 910 with their amazing close-zone scoring have a chance at that #1 spot.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Was thinking of swinging by to watch the eliminations. Might get there a little early to try to check out some of the bots in the pits to see how they work. Interested in seeing what some teams do to try to stop the 469 loop. Good luck to all teams there!

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I do not agree at all...call it what you will, but I'm a fan of Mia this year. 217 will win this competition. I think they will pick 910 just to show that 469 can be beat...and let's face it 910 is one of the best sweeper bots I've seen.

On a side note, has anyone relized how insane states is going to be this year? Michigan is really stepping up their game this year...and that's saying something seeing how dominant Michigan has been, well frankly, every year!

I'm pumped to see 217 win it all...again...and again...and again. Hopefully our 26-1 record loss will get broken here at Troy :) we can only hope.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Myself and a few others also plan to be there! We have to go cheer on 910 as they did for us. :)

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I should be there this weekend.

I believe that the Thunderchickens will not qualify first (I just have a feeling that another team will break out and do well) but that they will surely win the eliminations. They have too good of a robot to not win.

Good luck to all the teams competing there tomorrow and on Saturday.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Are all awards, including wf nominees done after the event or are they spread out over the two days? If spread out, when would wf nominnes be done? Thanks for any info.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

They will be done during the award ceremony on Saturday. Assuming everything runs on schedule, awards start at 5pm on Saturday.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

They are done during the award ceremonies which follow the elimination rounds. It's normally an hour ceremony, with the conclusion of it ending the event.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I heard that 469 is having troubles with their robot? Any confirmation? Anyone know what the problem is?

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

You mean break away. :D

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Team 2337 will have some people attending the event as well. It should be a great competitions and amazing eliminations.

-Clinton-

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Hopefully I can make it to see some elimination matches on Saturday. I really want to see 469 in action after all of the speculation that I've heard about their robot last weekend (20+ point matches :ahh:).
I wish the best of luck to all teams competing at this competition, and good luck in qualifying for State Championships to any team who hasn't qualified yet.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Happened to scan over the list of matches that was put up on coderedrobotics. 217 plays against 469 TWICE! 469 also has a match against 33, and another against 910. 217 and 910 are with each other once, and against each other once. I believe 910 is also with 33 once as well. Those are just a few that I noticed with a quick lookover, sure there are some other good matches in there.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Match #4: 21-0, ouch!

If 217 is in 1st, they will either pick 469 or Paul will indeed fire the lead strategist.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

The high score should be attributed to 2612, they primed the loop and cleaned up any mess. They were one of the best robot at Cass Tech and the ability of the drivers to control their robot is excellent. Actually, I'm amazed they weren't mentioned as one of the most offensive robots at Troy.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

217, 469, 910, 33, 226, 2612

These are the powerhouse teams at Troy (in my opinion).
All but Foley and Bees were at Cass Tech, and I think 469 might actually benefit more with an alliance with 910 rather than 217. That just leaves 2 of the biggest and best team's to pair up for the win.

When a mommy and a daddy love eachother very much...

(Birds and bees for all of you people who don't get my complicated jokes)

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

21 points isn't a bad seeding score...

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I predict that 308 will seed very high. They have 45 QPs after their first two matches, and they have upcoming matches with 469, 217, and 910. To make the QPs even higher, they have 3 matches against 469 (it's good for them that they get the winner's score for QPs).

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

well, 469 has a 21-0 match *and* a 24-0 match. 217 has their work cut out for them for that first spot.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

In 2010, 469 is spelled "Seventy-One."

Just saw their qualifying match, that is absolutely nuts. 18-0 before their opponent started shoving in the extra balls to maximize their own score.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

okay. This is nuts. I just got done seeing 469 and 216 together. The other alliance didn't bother scoring for themselves and score for the other alliance. Theres probably going to be a lot of that when 469 is up. Its a bit sad though...

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

No doubt, the chickens have an excellent robot. Many people forget, however, that their performance at their first district was also influenced by the fact that they had already played a regional event. That helped them come in with a strategy, a robot that had few bugs left, and a drive team that had already played against excellent competition.

I'm not saying that to detract from 217 in any way. They are clearly one of the robots to beat this year. I AM saying that to point out that a number of other teams - 910, 33, 27, and 67, have robots that look just as deadly, and have been steadily improving at a very good clip.

State Championships is going to be incredible. I won't bother making a prediction about Troy - they're too far into the qualifying matches for it to be a guess anymore.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Anyone else think that 469's method is a little unorthodox or unfair?

I, and many others, don't even find watching there matches entertaining.

Not sure if I'd call this Gracious Professionalism..

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

This has absolutely nothing to do with gracious professionalism. They simply built a very strong robot that is within the rules.

any team that was there today had the opportunity to build a similar machine, and did not. It's just good engineering.

EDIT: un-GP would be something like them rubbing their success in another team's face, or actively plotting to cheat to win. Which they don't, 469 has certainly earned my respect and admiration after years of being around FIRST events.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

This has already been gone over many a time, and I believe the overall opininon is that 469 was very smart and brave to try such a rash/crazy/effective stratagy while other teams opted for a more genaric way of play, the way many people think the game "should" be played.

I applaud 469 and hope they've been scouting!

On a side note after today (friday) 469 is in front and 33 is right at their heals. 217 suprisingly finished around 15th. However, tomarrow 33 and 469 have matches togeather and against each other so its going to be close race!

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I look forward to the chance to play against them at MSC - preferably not in the quarter or semifinal matches, but I think it will be a great challenge just the same. They pulled off a very original and risky design that has generated a lot of excitement.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I'm sorry but that match where 217 scored for 469 just was----wrong. I must just be old and don't get all this touchy feely , everybody is a winner stuff. I love watching the teams helping each other behind the curtains and even helping their rivals get their bots started on the field. I saw a 217 mentor do just that today. But scoring against yourself is just UNAMERICAN!!!! Yes, i understand you play by the rules you are given but it can still just be wrong. All i can see is if 33 gets some teams to score for them and break -up what ever deals were made. I had to say that last thing to make a point. That is what new teams and outsiders see that don't know 469 and 217. All they see is shenanigans. I sure hope the mc explained what was going on. the webcast sound wasn't working.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

This is just speculation:
217 scored on themselves in order to boost 469s seeding score above others (team 33) in addition to boosting their own seeding score. In a previous match that ended 5-5, 217 showed that they could play defense on 469 at the tower. The one sided match was more of a show of goodwill towards 469 and 217 is hoping that if 469 is the first seed they will pick them. Of course, even without the help, 469 and 217 are close teams and I there is a very good chance 469 would have picked them anyways (they do work well togeather).

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I think we'd have done the same thing. Actully, I think we might do the same thing tomarrow! However, we probably won't because that will keep them ahead of us in seeding, and we can't have 217 and 469 togeather again! You're to good togeather, lol!

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Who i would like to hear from is the other teams involved. Not the drive teams but their fans and teammates in the stands. I am sure the drive teams agreed to this but did they agree because of who asked or did they really understand the point system. There were alot of young teams at the event that may be, how should i put it, overwhelmed by greatness.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I would bet that 217 weighed the differences between competing against 469 and losing 20-10 or scoring with 469 and losing the match 25-0. If you look at the seeding points for each senario, the best option for 469 is #1 the best option for 217 is #2.

#1 - 217 gets 20 seeding points. 469 gets 45 seeding points. Thats +25 for 469 widening the gap between 217 and #1 seed.

#2 - 217 gets 25 seeding points. 469 gets 30 seeding points. Thats only +5 for 469.

Doesn't seem like senario #2 is goodwill towards 469. But, rather a great strategic move by one of the smartest teams in FIRST. Great move 217!

* EDIT #1: Senario #1 assumes that 469s partners were capable of priming the pump to start the cycle.
* EDIT #2: If the 6v0 strategy was used to help 469 seed #1, then I do not support this strategy. I do not agree with teams manipulating the system to help another team seed higher, based on agreements made regarding alliance selection.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I may not like it. I may think the GDC made a collossol mistake in setting up the scoring system this way. I may think it makes it incredibly boring to watch too, and creates a whole host of other issues.

However, these are the rules, and you're simply seeing smart teams use them to their advantage. In point of fact, if you had been at Cass Tech, you would have seen the same teams doing essentially the same thing, but in reverse, driving their points totals up so that they could seed high and pick who they wanted to.

There is no rule against doing what they're doing, and the GDC KNEW this could be the possible result when they wrote it. I do certainly hope we don't see teams attempting to stack the deck at States by running scores up for eachother, but I wouldn't doubt it will happen.

It's legal.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

The teams are playing within the rules, and doing what is best for them and for their alliance.

Lets say 469 is RED.

Some are questioning BLUE scoring for RED, to boost the RED score and help the BLUE allinace seeding points. But, there is nothing to stop the RED alliance from scoring for the BLUE alliance as well, which would boost the RED seeding points. Has anyone tried that?

That would be an interesting match.....

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I've been busy with at my own regional, so I haven't watched any of this district. However, it's obvious 469 is doing much better in qualifications this time around than they did in their previous district (where they were shut out multiple times and lost four matches).

What's the difference? Are teams buying into the 469 system more now that they've seen what it can do? Are the robots just better at scoring at this event (especially with two more weeks to work on them)? Are fewer teams attempting to defend against 469 and just attempting to maximize their rankings? Some of each? Something else?

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Hate the game, not the player.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

469 seemed to have technical difficulties at Cass tech. Thier ball return system seemed to malfunction and not extend in numerous matches. When they are forced to survive on their drive system and kicker, they are a far less dangerous robot to play against.

I can only (selfishly) hope this pattern of strategy regarding scoring FOR 469 and not for themselves continues. All it would take is 4 or 5 goals by the opposing teams to change these 25 + 5 = 30 point matches in 25 + 10 + 5 = 40 point matches. It's keeping their scores reasonably sane. It makes logical sense to - if they get locked into place in auton, score with them and not against them, since they're likely going to smash you anyway if they have even a single good offensive partner.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

It's kindof strange... we seem to have a huge gulf at Troy between what I'd call "good" scoring teams who can control the ball, kick, score, etc. and "other" teams that can't seem to do much of anything - some not even moving. To quote one of my scouts, "They're another team that doesn't work 75% of the time and then spins in circles the other 25% of the time when they do." Surprisingly, there's a lot of that, even though it's week 4 and everyone's second competition. My best guess is that some might have just gotten their bots working today. I applaud them for persevering and getting out there and giving it their all. It just makes for some very strange match scores and results depending on how they are grouped together.

Another thing we noticed personally was how many penalties there were! I think we lost 4 or 5 matches today because of what I'd call "rookie mistakes" - things you see week one but not usually week 4. Reminds me of last year when people continued to enter the orbit balls "over" the side outposts all the way through States and even into the Championship. We've taken to reviewing the basic rules such as "don't bash the opponents tower repeatedly during the last 20 seconds please" with anyone we're not really familiar with. We just try to remember everyone's trying to do their best and heck, let's just go have some fun with our robots! Besides, Dean Kamen came and signed our robot and control board so we win. The end!

Hope that answers your questions a little.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

217 has had a lot of experience with 1114, makes sense that 1114's UNAMERICAN ways would start rubbing off. ;) (Ok, seriously, if ANYONE takes offense to this, it is a joke. I agree completely with johnr that scoring against yourself is wrong. I will take it a step further, it is THE most OFFENSIVE thing that you can do to your opponent. Give it your all or don't even show up is my opinion.)

Trust me, I understand the strategic value of it. I am actually a little irked with FIRST for taking, imho, a wonderful game and saddling this ranking system on it.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

This is awesome! Killer Bees are 3pts ahead of 469 for the #1 seed and they play each other in the last match.

If the Bee alliance does nothing but block their own goals, they can preserve their 3 point lead over 469, regardless of what 469 does (assume no penalties).

If it were me, I would park in front of our goals, and let go of the controls!

What an incredible senario. I am interested to see what happens.

EDIT: Nevermind. Forgot about 5pts for winning match. Bad Strategy.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I wonder why that didn't happen? Seems like the smartest thing to do, unless you know that 469 wants to pick you.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Wouldn't they need a 5+ lead on 469 to offset the 5 qualifying points the winner gets?

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I guess we both missed that, whoops.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Ahh...good point! I completely forgot about the 5pt bonus for winning.

I was hoping to see 217 v. 469...

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

o.0

Can't see I agree with the incursion penalty, but that would have been such a stunning upset....

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I agree with Chris. The rule update would appear to nullify that instance in which they recieved a penalty. I didn't think that they continued game play.

Alas, In the end the final say rests with our lovely officials.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I could pull up video of an identical situation happening to 2791 at WPI in a few matches, where a defender caused my team to reorient, then we fell back over a ball and got hung up on it for 5 or so seconds, just like 33. Oh well, it didn't change the outcome of the event.

Very true.

Congrats 469, 217, and 1188!

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Anyone notice there not being a penalty called on 1188, whose kicker was off of the robot the whole match?

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I noticed that too. I was entirely shocked that that wasn't called. IIRC, any kind of penalty could have decided that particular match. If anyone knows why they weren't penalized for it, I'd be interested in hearing the explanation.

I've noticed a lot of penalties that haven't been called this season (incredibly obvious penalties, too), mostly on bumpers and frame perimeters. However, as much as I may not like the ref's calls, I have to accept that they have an incredibly hard job as it is, and sometimes miss things.

Congratulations to 469, 217, and 1188!

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Does anyone remember that team that flipped over the ENTIRE blue alliance in the eliminations? If so do you think that was an acceptable strategy?

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

That was 2137. It was a acceptable strategy and within the rules. It was not really a gracious profecional stratigy. However, when your in elims you do what you have to to win. The other team all happened to have less stable robots and 2137 took advantage of this. I can't begrudge them this. If you were in 2137s position would you have done this? Personally, I think they probably would have won anyway, and I would hate to be the team that ends their compitition on their side or back. Its a bummer but a part of the game and to be fair, all teams had the ability to build self righting devices for their robot during build season. I predict that at states there will be more of this attemped as lesser teams find that this is a very effective way to stop better teams from scoring (Most teams can't right themselves).

my 2 cents

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Congratulations to 469, 217, and 1188! Also to the finalists! It was great competing with you at Troy. Great job to you all! States is going to be wild!

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

i dont know what anyone else thinks, but personally, i think the first match of the eliminations #2 seed vs #7, i was very impressed the way #7 was able to play and push a tie out of it going up agenst 33 and 910. what impressed me the most about that match is how good 2832 was able to do overall making it to the #7 seed from 40th place. that one match i think was by far the best one i have seen played all year.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

states is going to be nuts from all the teams who will be changing there bots to better themself and for all the teams that will being all they can do slow down HOT, Chickens, and waiting for a team to totally shutdown 469 because if you watched the troy regional alot of teams made it really hard for them and i think there are a few teams that can and just might but i wanna say good luck to all the teams competing and i will be there to see all the great michigan teams compete :)

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Congratulations to teams 469, 217, and 1188 on the win! Congratulations to the finalists 33, 910, and 288 I went to Athens just in time to see eliminations, and to see 469 in action. There were some amazing robots there, and some intense matches, especially the first final match! State Championships are going to be incredible with so many powerful teams competing. I can't wait!

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I have the finals matches posted on our team's youtube channel if anyone is interested. I will also be uploading the triple flip match and also the Guerilla flip by 2612.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Crevolution2851

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

That was a terrific, you guys put up one heck of a fight 10-10 is nothing to scoff at. It was a great match. My personal favorite match this year, however, besides that one and the first final match was qual #37. In this match 33 took on 3302, 226, and 288 and tied basically with 1.5 robots playing because one didn't show up and the other fliped over early in the match. It was pretty epic. Plus everyone got 30 seeding points out of the deal:D .

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

johnr (and anyone else who thinks this way),

I am sorry if you think this is just wrong (or unamarican), but please try to look at it from a broader perspective. Before I get into it, I want to make it perfectly clear that I do not like the seeding system this year ... not one bit. I love the game, but the GDC got the seeding system wrong. That is neither here nor there as these are the rules we must play by.

O.K., here goes. This year, playing to win has a slightly different meaning during the seeding rounds, because, quite frankly, winning an individual match means nothing to your overall seeding. Our students, mentors, and teachers try to achieve excellence in everything we do and that doesn't stop with strategy. At Troy the "random match algorithm" put 217 against 469 twice. The first match we did everything possible to win an "elimination round style" match. The result: a 5 - 5 tie. It was the third (or forth) match of the weekend for us so this was the right play as we had no idea how the seedings would play out. Later on Friday we were at like 15th or 16th when we met up against 469 again. By this time it was clear we were not going to catch 33 or 469, but we were dangerously close to not making the top 8. It took about 3 minutes to do the math to conclude that doing the 6 v. 0 was the only logical choice to help boost us into the top 8. Again, given the rules this year, this is a perfectly legitimate strategy. This manuever boosted us at #6 after Friday was over. Our mind set was simple: we wanted to control our own destiny to have the best chance to be in the finals on Saturday afternoon.

If you do not like that strategy, then don't blame us, blame the GDC. By the way, 469 had no less than 5 other teams try the 6 v. 0 against them so why was our match the only one that was called out?

I wonder how many of you that think the 6 v. 0 strategy is wrong also think that declining during eliminations are wrong ...

Excuse me for being a little irritated with this subject, but I am tired of being accused of cheating / doing something wrong / gaming the system when we are simply playing by the rules we are given. I guess I must just be un G.P.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Our team had asked the same question.
When we played 469 there was a suggestion to lose on purpose to boost our rank into the top 8. But we didn't think that was in the spirit of G.P. So we did our best to win and show off so a team in the top 8 would notice us and pick us. We knew we had a decent bot this year so why not play to win?

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Because we didn't have any robot troubles we helped another team perfect an auto so they couldn't get to the tower in that match. It worked to we won. I predict a lot more blocking of 469 from the tower in the quals at States so they might not seed as high (keyword: might):ahh:

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Right, play to win. Play to win the event or play to win one match? This year, unfortunately, they are not the same thing.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

It depends on your position. If you have a chance of seeding high play to win seeding points. If you don't have a chance at this, play to show off your robot so you will be picked for elims. Either way, the goal is to ultimatly, win so teams have to do their best with what their given.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I agree. However, when faced with the difficult task of a match against 469 on Saturday morning, our team had a dilemma. Half of our team wanted to "pull a Thunderchicken" and stack our seeding points, which no doubt would have put us into picking position, and the other half wanted to see what we could do against them. Some members figured that even if we lost (highly likely) we would be able to impress teams so we would get picked higher.
We knew we had an autonomous solely made to stop 469 from getting in the tunnel, but we had yet to try it out.

So what do we do? Guarantee ourselves a higher rank by scoring on ourselves? or fight like crazy to impress everyone, and show that 469 is stoppable?

I will admit I was torn as well. But, after talking it over, we decided to give it a fighting chance.

Seeing our autonomous work and hearing the whole crowd go crazy, was one of the greatest feelings ever. And while we only beat 469 by a penalty, we also had one dead robot, and our robot's signal was cutting in and out. Even if we had lost, we showed to everyone and ourselves that 469 can be stopped. It was a much more satisfying feeling, then purposely throwing away the match.

However, I will not criticize anyone who has used the 6 v 0 strategy. I understand why it is used, and how effective it can be. I just ask that teams think about actually trying to win first. It is much more satisfying and requires some, dare I say, fun strategic planning.

Congrats once again to 469, 217, and our mentorees 1188 for their great win at Troy. We will see you all at states! :D

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

If you seriously have the ability to stop 469 where other teams do not, I think other teams' scouts will notice even if you don't shoot yourself in the foot ranking wise.

I used to subscribe to the "show off your robot and press your luck" strategy, then my team went from 17th to 7th at WPI with 5 carefully calculated matches. We ended up conceding 2 matches versus who would end up being the #1 seed, blocking our own goals in the second of those matches, which helped us keep our ranking up. You can turn any schedule into a positive schedule if you're smart and have a versatile robot.

Despite only playing incidental defense, smart scouts did notice my team and saw that we had the potential to play smart and aggressive defense rather than simple pinning and ramming.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

i totally agree with paul the seeding system is horrible it should only matter between wins loses and penaltys for the seeding process

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Because you guys (meaning both you and 469 as a pair) have used this strategy multiple times at multiple competitions. Yes you are 100% protected by the rules and nothing anywhere says that you cant do what you are doing, but don't expect to do what you do and come out smelling like roses. You guys are a great team, and that comes with a large target on your back, the strategy you guys are using makes that target so much bigger. Hence the being under the microscope scenario you are in.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Please get your facts straight. The 6 v. 0 was used against us in Finger Lakes (unwillingly) and at Troy. At Cass Tech 469 pulled the 6 v. 0 agianst us to help themselves (we won 12 - 0, but it was only 1-0 due to penalties). The only time we (217) have actually strategized the 6 v. 0 was in the second match against 469 at Troy. Your multiple times at multiple competitions is simply libelous. My patience is wearing thin with false accusations against my team and my tolerance is now gone.

Anyone else that is thinking about slandering or libeling my team please take notice.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

When you played 469 it was your second to last match, and you were ranked well away from the top eight. You had less than 150 seeding points while the top eight teams were sure to all be well over 200. So come back and tell us about making a righteous decision when you actually had a decision to make.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

While the automode did work, we did not win that match. It was quite close.

For those of you just planning on blocking, please review the eliminations of Troy. You need a smarter strategy than "just blocking".

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I seldom chime in on bickering like this but I will for this one:

The GDC decided on a new scoring system which is unique from anything used by any other sport on earth.
They probably thought that they were being clever, but in some situations, this system takes away a team's motivation to win certain matches.
I don't think that they saw this coming, which surprises me, since we saw it before we had even picked up our kit on Jan 9th. Hence update #16, which restores some, but not all, of the basic motivation to win most matches.
Still the situation remains in qualifying that if your alliance honestly believes that you will not win, your best course of action is play a 6 vs 0 match.

Some still consider this unsporting, but I completely agree with Paul: This is the world FIRST created for us, we are all just working within their system to get ahead where possible. If all 3 members of your alliance agree to play 6 vs 0, then there is nothing unsporting about it. It is legal, it is fair, and it is within the scope of the rules.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."
If you don't like this reality, let FIRST know in any way that you can and hopefully in the future they will return to a more straightforward W/L/T based seeding system, which has worked successfully from 2004-2009.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

469's seeding won't matter. They will be a first or second pick regardless. As Paul has pointed out, any strategist who doesn't see the value of being able to totally lock down the ball return should be fired. In fact, I'd be schocked if all the redirection bots like 469, 51, and a couple others aren't picked in the first pass of picking.

As a result, anyone who intends to play the elims at States had better be working on a way to nullify that advantage. That's tougher than it sounds, because as you saw (if you were watching) at Troy, they seem to have improved maneuvering issues and now look to be a dangerous robot even without the redirection system. Kudos to them.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Locking 469 out of a top seed is still a good idea, as it forces them to join the number one alliance. Ideally, this alliance includes you or an unideal partner, such as 51 or 2337.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

But if they seed first they will most probably pick 217, because they work so well togeather and have won their last two regionals. However, if someone else seeds first and picks them at least 217 will have to play them at some point in elims. Get my drift:) .

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Not really. As far as my post goes, it was the first 6v0 match i watched and the use of team numbers was a brain fart. I didn't realize that Paul was getting so much grief over this thing. I was trying to get across my disdain for the rules this year and to look at the larger picture. Everyone in this little world called FIRST should by this time know the rules and what is acceptable. What about all the people we are supposed to introduce to FRC? It is to different for the general public. People will not get it out of their head that it looks like someone is taking a dive. What about the other teams involved? If it is agreed on before hand by all six teams, so be it. Now what about a forced 6v0? What if one of those teams had some new defense they wanted show off or it was their last match or,or,or.
I really hate these rules.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Agreed. It seems, as always, that FIRST succeeded in some ways (bumper colors are great) but failed in others - the scoring system. For a game they claim they want to toward 'watchability', it's completely insensible to promote teams scoring on themselves against their own alliance.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

2010: game watchability = epic fail ... Thanks alot seeding system

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I would like to ask you to point out a match at Detroit where the seeding system took away from the value of the game.

There isn't one.

Just because one team can direct balls into their goal is making this game boring? I think you need to watch the other 60+ matches and decide that for yourself.

Honestly, if you ask anyone on my team about watching 469 play (or any similar redirecting bot), they would love to watch them play. In fact everyone I know who came to troy as a spectator wanted to watch 469 play because they were so good. 6 vs 0 or not. I myself actually found some of these 6 vs 0 matches interesting because of the strategy that they use to bring the balls to one alliances goal. Seeing 6 teams working together to achieve an insanely large score can lead to a moment of awe when you see how well they all work together.

Before you make such a rash claim about this year's seeding system you really need to look at the larger picture, and not just a handful of matches.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Let's all just agree to not attack the teams that are playing by the rules and taking advantage of a screwed up seeding system, and just complain about the system - NOT the teams!

I'll just use the example, "Who would pay to go to a basketball game and watch 10 guys all shooting in the same basket?" I think I'd watch this "shoot around" for maybe 5 minutes and leave and ask for my money back. Wouldn't you? I don't think that's what the GDC had in mind when they invited entertainment professionals to the team to help make it more fan-friendly. Let's face it, they did a LOT of things right, though. The scoring is simple, the game is extremely simple to understand, and it can be very, very exciting to watch, so it's not all bad!

What could they do to fix it? I thought about suggesting a change from +5 for winning to a larger amount which would make it numerically more towards a W/L/T seeding system. However, it doesn't address the real problem with the system and here it is... Why is the losing team rewarded for how well the winning team did? Nobody has ever answered that fundamental question! Imagine a match where all three robots against 469 don't show up. They could get 25 seeding points! What? It would take most teams 2 or 3 victories to equal that and they didn't even have to show up! Whoa! On top of that, not everyone gets to play against them so the people that pull one or worse yet two matches against them have a huge unfair advantage in the seeding over those that don't.

I think the solution is simple. Give the losing alliance their own points, and take away the +5 if you want. Now everyone is rewarded for how well they do - gee, doesn't that just make sense? 8 to 3 match? Winners get 14 (8 plus 2 x 3), losers get 3. Sounds good! Now, I'm playing to win! 15 to 0 match? Winners get 15 losers 0. Sounds good! Guess I better put *some* points on the board! Don't show up? No points. Fair! Now everyone plays every second to score, score, score! Hmmm. That sounds like every other successful sport ever invented! Maybe we shouldn't buck the trend here?

There's still time before Atlanta. :)

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

To beat an alliance having 469 on it, the opposing alliance must have a combonation of 3 robots who can all score, and defend when nescessary. In match 57 of the Troy District Teams 573, 3302, and 2832, had an alliance that worked almost well enough. 573 went into the tunnel in autonomous while 2832 cleared their defensive zone. 3302 was disabled for the Whole match. 2832 held 469 and their partners to 6 points for about 90 seconds. When 573 moved out of the tunnel they felt they could score enough in that short time to win. The final score was 6-5 with 469 winning. However, there were 5 points in penalties for the red alliance and 573, 3302, 2832 won 5-1.:) 573 were the first team to block 469 and many other teams did so after. Watch out for 469 to have a new autonomous program at states!

Here is the match http://www.youtube.com/user/team573#p/a/u/1/FA0FSXlvf_Q

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I agree with Alex; you must not have seen many matches. Detroit 2010 was by far the most exciting and sit-on-the-edge-of-your-seat competition I've seen since my rookie year.

(the following comments are directed towards the general audience, and not in response to BJC's post)

If 469 is on the field and it's NOT a 6v0 match, some of the defense that the opposing alliances put up was amazing to watch (the most obvious being 33 in the Troy finals). If it's 6v0, then seeing the non-469 alliance creatively get balls to the other end of the field and score goals is also quite a show.

No matter how you play the cards, this game is worth watching. Even if 5 robots lose comm during a match, watching that 6th robot continue to herd, kick, and score by themselves is exciting. Even if the box-on-wheels robots are on the field and the match ends 1-0, seeing those robots overcome their weaknesses is enough to make spectators realize what FIRST is all about. There's always action, and always something exciting to watch, you just have to look for it. Just because a team ISN'T a powerhouse doesn't mean that they can't play an exciting game.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I'm very torn about this scoring system. Our team played very well at the Troy District event, but did not get chosen for an alliance as the 18th ranked team. I don't have any problem with any decision any team has made with regard to how they implement their strategy to utilize the vagaries of the rules. I didn't meet a person on any team at that event that I felt had anything less than a deep commitment to the BIG goals of FIRST. The teams that have received criticism for their strategy have been unfairly singled out, in my opinion, for simply acting within the rules in the best interest of their teams.

That said, these rules introduce a lot of distortions into the seeding that I had never anticipated, even under the 6 v. 0 scenario people have been talking about. It is not a stretch to say that had we been scheduled against our good friends on Team 469, we could have decided to operate with them to build a lopsided score. An additional 20 or so seeding points in a loss would have boosted us to somewhere in the neighborhood of 11th. Our team plays good defense, can score in the near zone, improved with every match, and suffered only 1 malfunction in 12 matches. I can't help but think that an epic loss would have ironically given us a shot at continued play on Saturday.

I look forward to this weekend at the state championship. Our kids feel great about doing what we set out to do, but slightly disappointed nonetheless. And if we are faced with matches against very strong teams this weekend, I honestly don't know what to suggest our students should do.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

The seeding system has me torn as well, and that is coming from a team that was "carried" into a higher rank. Team 3421 had a good event, especially considering some of the struggles they've had this season. Any scout can tell you, 3421's bot spent a lot of time flipped over, both on and off the field.* We finished the qualifications ranked 14th, largely because of our alliance partners.

Regardless of seeding, I found Troy to be a very enjoyable event and plan on returning. Due to the efforts and support of everyone there, I believe that both the students and mentors of 3421 walked away with a better understanding of what FIRST is truly about. I couldn't have asked for a better learning experience for a rookie team. Thank you!


*The bot came in at 49lbs. In an attempt to "beef up" our robot, we even made a trip to the school's weight room and borrowed a 20 pound weight to attach! Thank you teams 217, 68, 2960, the inspectors, volunteers, and anyone else who helped us out!

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Sorry, actully enjoy watching this years game alot. I was more refering to when people who don't really know how everything works watch a 6 vs. 0 match, especially with FIRST trying to become more well known and get new people involved. It is very hard for me to explain to parents on our team that come to watch why that team is scoring on themselves and why that is actully better for them.

So to rephrase, Game = Awesome Scoring System = Not Awesome

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I think the 2010 seeding system does a better job of ranking teams by robot "goodness" than a straight W/L/T system can. It takes into account the strength of opponents in a reasonably simple way.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Play within the rules and do whatever you need to do to get your team the most seeding points!

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I have noticed that also. No longer will a team get carried to a very high rank because of good alliance partners. They will have to preform well to get their rank.

Although a team could be carried if their opponents scored a ton in each match of theirs, that is highly unlikely since the random sorting system mixes the good and bad teams pretty well. Also because they would have to lose by a LOT every time.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Proof that something's wrong with the seeding algorithm can be demonstrated that after 8 matches at Troy, a team that did NOT show up placed ahead of us.

What???

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

If a team didn't show up they shouldn't receive any seeding points.

It should also be noted that this happened with W/L/T as well in games not named Lunacy.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

I can not agree with you more.


There are plenty of ways that 2337 and 469 could be an ideal partner ... maybe 469 or 2337 has not shown these capabilities yet. Can 469 deflect balls from the near zone or can 2337 hang from the near zone? Can both 469 and 2337 move between zones?

The Big question is who will start in the middle!?

-Clinton-

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Remember that in the spirit of FIRST draging other teams into your seed boosting game strategy is not right. If you want to seed high then play the best, be the best and make a ligitiment win. You have a great bot and drive team so show it off every match. Food for thought, dont just focus on your number at the expense of everybody else.

Re: Troy Athens Regional
 

Keeping with the theme of first, I would not have used this a STRATEGY. I wouldn't have said before the match "Hey, Lets tip every robot out there and see what happens! We might get a yellow card, but hey, we just need to win one more match!" No. However, I have a friend on 2137 and he said that they built their drivetrain to be EXTREMELY powerful. I mean, you saw how easily the robots tipped. In a few cases, the bots WEREN'T unstable, and they got flipped like a pancake. When they play defense, they took full advantage of the raw power of their drivetrain, pushed a robot sideways in open field, and due to the traction with the floor, they flipped. Now, all three is a little suspicious, but still it was just a well played match. This happened in the Detroit Regional finals when the feds were hit by HOT. HOT hit them sideways, open field, perfectly legal, and the wheel traction caused them to flip on their side.

Note, if your getting hit from the side, maybe your drive team should back out of the situation or get hit against the wall to induce pinning (only 5 seconds) and then they must back off.