Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Hey guys,

So I know that there are 3 ways to make it to the Championships: Win a Regional, win an Award (Chairmans/EI/Rookie), or get an open-lottery bid.

It seems though, that every year there are teams that everyone says "should be at the Championship". There are always teams with amazing robots that either get unlucky, or miss out on winning a regional by a close loss in the finals. Those teams are devastated that they can't compete again.

On that note, there are plenty of teams that are just "handed" a spot in the Championship by lottery.

In my opinion, because there are more spots in the Championship than regional winners, that FIRST should award a Championship bid to more categories than just the aforementioned ones. There are so many teams who embody what FIRST is all about who would definitely make Atlanta a better experience. It would also courage more teams to strive to meet those goals, instead of just vying for that lottery pick.

Examples
Robot Awards: Industrial Design, Motorola Quality or Engineering Excellence
Team Awards: Gracious Professionalism Award, Team Spirit Award, Entrepreneurship Award
or even give it to the #1 seed.

If these winners happen to overlap more than expected, then yes, FIRST can give out open bids to fill up the gaps in the Championship.

Thoughts?

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Personally I'm glad FIRST leaves some spots open to general teams. Teams should be allowed to go at least once every 4 years because every student deserves a chance to experience it regardless of a team's funding situation (complicated robot, booking reservations at an elevated price because it's only 2 weeks away, etc), mechanical abilities, or the fact that other veteran teams come in and snipe their regionals every year. Without the lottery some teams would NEVER get a chance to go to championships, and let's be honest -- FRC is, and should be, about opportunity more than it is about competition.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

It's not totally open. FIRST tries to keep it a little fair and give every team a chance to attend every couple years. If you didn't go to the Championship in 2009 you get first dibs on the open spots. I'm sure there were more than enough teams to fill all the open spots back in October.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

For large teams it is a lot of work to plan a trip to Atlanta in 1 or 2 weeks. Many teams couldn't attend just because of being unable to get plane tickets.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

I think that losing the open registration spots will be a natural consequence of the growth in number of teams. There's already too many teams for every team to get to go once every four years (1808/4=452 teams per year, which is more spots than are available). And that's before you consider that there are some teams that will qualify every year. Look at Michigan for example, with teams now needing to qualify for the state championship.

There are, however, many oportunities at championships for teams to go even without their robot. If/when championships becomes by qualification only, there's still the conferences, volunteering, checking out matches, meeting teams, and a number of other reasons to attend.

~Allison

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Due to the inspirational experience of participating in the Championship, I think the current system of having open slots as well as teams qualify based upon winning the regional, Chairman's Award, Engineering Inspiration, and Rookie All Star Award should not be changed. However, as the number of teams increases every year this system may not be sufficient due to the limited space at the championship. When the current system becomes insufficient I would like to see a points system used that is similar to what Michigan uses to qualify teams for the state championship for the Championship. This way a team that is competitive i.e. (#1 seed, regional finalist, wins a technical award) can still compete at the championship.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

There have been numerous systems used over the years to split up the open registration.

1) Anybody, regardless of attending a regional or not. Ended sometime around 2000, IIRC, due to the number of regionals climbing to the point where it could end.
2) Even/odd. Ended around 2002, IIRC.
3) Points system, based on awards won the previous year. The more points, the earlier. Ended roughly 2004.
4) Time since last Championship. Still in use.

Pre-qualifiers and at-event qualifiers should not be changed. These teams deserve it. (Even though some of them do take up multiple slots.;))

If someone can come up with a reasonably fair way to balance out the open registration and the "So close, yet so far" teams, that would be great. (Ditto for if somebody can come up with a good reason why FIRST didn't start moving teams off the waitlist until Week 3 at least this year...)

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

I think the open qualification system is important. Teams should be able to experience the championship at least once every 2 years if they so have the funding to do so, and making the Championship qualification-only would change FIRST into purely a robotics competition, significantly raising the stakes for every team at the regional level.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

That's how FTC does it. To make it to the world championship you have to win a regional or the Inspire Award (there isn't even an Engineering Inspiration Award). The Inspire Award is the FTC equivalent of Chairman's. There are some teams that qualify almost every year (mostly the teams that qualify every year have excellent Inspire Award credentials). The competitiveness of FTC Champs is ramped up considerably from regionals without hurting the values of FIRST, so yes, I do think doing qualification on merit only would be a good idea.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Does the Championship have room for 6 or 8 divisions? I never had a chance to go so I can't tell for sure, but this seems like it would solve the issue entriely.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

I don't think there is room. You might get 8 fields onto the floor, but then FTC and FLL have to find a new place, and 8 fields worth of spectators need to find seating.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

This was one of the reasons I quit FTC, and my least favorite part of the program other than the Kit of Parts. In FTC, it's actually a lot worse. You have to be the Alliance Captain. Your Championship fate isn't determined by how good you are, but how good your qualifying schedule is. The first pick isn't guaranteed a spot, so you're SOL if you're the best robot at the competition and seeded 3rd because you had no partner one match.

If you make it qualification only, you have to make it more fair.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

I would agree with that. The qualification process for FTC is screwed up, though I've never heard of a first pick not making it, and most second picks do go, but it's still really annoying and there are amazing robots every year that don't qualify. My point is more that a strict qualification process for FRC wouldn't destroy the values of FIRST, especially a fairer/better one.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

All that goes out the window next year, as the championship moves to St. Louis. That would be an interesting thought. 6 divisions, and then on Einstein they play everyone plays everyone once, and the two alliances with the most wins, and for tie breaks you look at the record against between the two. But i doubt the spacial gains will be that large seeing that both are football stadiums.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

for all those people talking about how every team should get a chance. ask FLL kids if they even know about the World Championships.

The fact FIRST is moving championships 2 weeks later is a good thing, But getting into/out of St. Louis is a much harder task (They aren't a hub for airlines like Atlanta was for Airtran/Delta) than one might think.

because Championship is two weeks later, i propose this program

FIRST would be able to determine which teams qualify almost immediately if they keep the data up-to-date in their system. Teams would now have 3-4 weeks to plan their trip to Championships, and this would ensure we get teh best competition possible while giving every team a great chance to attend championships once every four years.

P.S. You would still get a automatic bid if you won your regional, or got Chairmans, EI or Rookie All-Star.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

If I had the powers of saying how you get into Champs:

That year's Regional Chairmans win, Regional EI win, and Regional Rookie AllStar and Highest Rookie Seed win are Automatic Bids.
That year's Coopertition award winners get automatic bid.
That year's Judges award winners get automatic bids.
That year's Regional champs, disctrict champs, state champs are Automatic Bids.
Last year's Divisional Winners are automatic bids.
Charimans Award winning teams unable to win the Chairmans via the new rules because they have won Chairmans in the last 4 years, have automatic bids.
Last year's Rookie All Star Winner gets automatic bid.

Open spots are given via first come, first serve, with priority on teams with longest drought away from champs.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

And the difference between two football stadiums is sideline space at best.

You *might* be able to get 6 divisions, if you moved FTC and FLL elsewhere. You **might** be able to get 8, if you brought in 2 more fields and played geometry games and roped off divisional seating. (Also: pulled the lower stands all the way back. You'll pay for that in reduced seating, though.)

There are places to put FTC and FLL. There's a theater in the America's Center that might have enough room for one of them. There's the America's Ballroom that might be able to handle one of them, with pits. The convention halls could probably handle the rest of the pits alongside the FRC pits. But it'd be a tight fit.

It's going to be a major PITA to figure that out, especially if you don't want complaints. I don't think they'll expand for a while yet.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

That would be a lot less dramatic than a single elimination tournament, since you don't know how much each match you watch matters. If Einstein went to more than 4 but less than 8, there would have to be some change in game dynamic to accommodate it.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

I dont get what you mean by lottery... it isn't a random system at all. I suggest you read the qualification rules a little more closely.

Teams that DID NOT GO last year, had the opportunity to register and pay starting October 1st. Teams that DID GO last year had the opportunity to register and play starting October 22nd. 1511 has "qualified" through this method every single year but the rookie year. Its not a random system. The system opens up at noon, and the first teams to "click and pay" buy their spot. Its like buying tickets at ticket master. And I don't consider ticket master a lottery. It is NOT like the college housing lottery system or the state lotteries... its not a random drawing of team numbers.

Simply put if you have the money, and you have the will to sit there at noon and click away, you WILL very very likely get in.

We feel championships is very important for every one of our students to experience, and like to go every year, so we built a program and structure our fundraising so that we have money to be able to attend every year.

Honestly, for me I dont get the teams that have the attitude that they "have to win to attend". For me FIRST isn't about winning. Its about the experience. You are just going to make it harder and more stressful on your team to have to come up with the travel arrangements and funds to register and travel in a really short amount of time. We save a lot of money by booking everything way back in September.

I know one day FRC will have so many regionals that they wont have room for open bids, and it may not be all that far from today. But until that day, we will continue to try to keep the stress low, and the experiences high, and register through the open system (even though we have actually been fortunate enough to qualify every year).

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

I guess I didn't explain myself clearly in my original post. Yes, it isn't a random lottery, but it does allow teams to go to the Championship based on sitting at a computer and buying a ticket opposed to earning their way in.

Now I'm not suggesting that only the best teams should go to the Championship. As I suggested, in my opinion, teams who exhibit the greatest Gracious Professionalism and Team Spirit deserve to go to the Championship over a team who happened to have a credit card in October.
I understand that FIRST isn't all about winning but there are many ways to exhibit the characteristics of a team which FIRST should promote without having a huge budget and many mentors with engineering experience.

I think the "at large bids" is a great idea; to give judges the ability to send teams who might not have those resources, and despite everything, did surprisingly well in the regional competition.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

This is simply rewarding teams that win in a different way, and doesn't change her point.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

If I had my way it would look a little like this:

Everything stays the same for qualifying for champs by winning awards at regionals, BUT your robot performance is what gets you in. Don't get me wrong, FRC teams getting the chance to go every few years isn't bad, but this is the Championship event. The best robots should get to go, not teams with mediocre to poor robots and good sponsors that get them the 10k. Our team did it in 2009 and then qualified by winning RCA. Yes, it was nice to know that you were going to Atlanta no matter how we did at GSR, but we hadn't earned the right to play with the best teams until we got RCA.

Just my thoughts.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Is this the purpose of the FIRST Championship?

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

If you are asking this, why don't you tell us what it is? I understand that FIRST is not about winning, that is why RCA's, EI's, and Rookie Allstars make it and why we have so many awards, but I don't understand why teams should just be allowed to go to champs because they have great sponsors. They should get in by achievements is all I'm saying. Similarly, FLL students should be given a bigger chance to get to Atlanta or Saint Louis.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

... and what is the purpose of calling it a championship if ALL of the best are not there?

Is it right that a team that lost in the finals of a regional doesn't get in, but another team that didn't win a match does?

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

That was a serious question, by the way.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

It didn't seem like that Chris. It is weird when watching in the stands to see robots that don't perform well only to find out they didn't win an award to get in.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

As was mine.

'Championship' alludes to finding the best at something.

If this is not what we are doing then lets call it 'FIRST Robotics World Exposition' or such.

Whether it's the NFL, Robotics, or a spelling bee the goal of a championship is to crown a champion (I.E. the best at the competition). But by not inviting the ALL of the best we skew any result.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

FIRST is a very complicated thing. It acts like a sport, which would signify that performance gets you in, but it also acts like as a culture, which is where RCA, EI, and rookie allstar come in. It is a mixture of both. So the way in is a mixture of both. FIRST also has the "real world" thing too. Which is why teams can pay their way in. It is just a lot of things all thrown together that don't agree with one another. There is no way to make all side of happy, so no sides are happy. The way it is stays, but I would like to see less spot go to thse who just pay, I'd like to see 40% of get in because of Robot performance, 30% because of awards, and the 30% due to random draw or split it, 33% for all parties

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

There have been instances in the past where a World Champion was not a regional champion, regional finalist, chairmans / ei winner, or otherwise. 111 in 2003 did not achieve any of that, for example. 296 in 2006 as well. 177 didn't win any other awards in 2007 at all.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

But the fact of the matter is that so many teams aren't like them. Didn't win but did really well. 330 in 2009, 968 in 2007 and 2009, 40 in 2007 and almost in 2009, 854 in 2007, 610 in 2009, 1626 in 2007, and more. These teams all would have done far better than the other teams there.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

So basically, under either system you won't get all the best robots.

So why not go with the system that lets more people experience the FIRST Championship?

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

There is no problem with allowing teams to get the experience, but it is frustrating when some teams experience this EVERY year and do not perform. A low number of slots being set aside for "experience" is fine, but this has crowded champs with low performing teams.

And you don't get what I'm saying. :rolleyes: That is all I will say on the matter, if you would like to discuss further PM as to not derail the thread.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

The current system doesn't. Look at Kims Robots post. Her team goes every year (because of the experiance), but since the numbers say only 1 team in 4 gets to go every year (less than 25% due to space limitations) that means that 3 of the 4 years her team is taking the spot (and experiance) of another team, just because her team has the money onhand. IE less teams going.

Again ... if we call it a championship, then lets set up a system such that the best-of-the-best get to the championship ... and if it's a buy-your-way-in then lets label it as that (an exhibition).

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

This is only true if every team has the money and will to prepay for a Championship slot, which it isn't. The whole reason 1511 CAN go every year is that not enough slots were taken in the period where teams who did not go the previous year registered.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

They're apparently not taking anything away from teams who want to go who didn't the previous year, as that registration period has never consumed every Championship slot.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

There are teams who have qualified who have not gone because they have no money to go.
So even if they have a dominant robot it doesn't guarantee they will be there.

You forgot being a member of the FIRST Hall of Fame or a FIRST legacy team.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Approximately one third of the teams attending the Championship event do it without "earning" an invitation. I don't think that counts as a flood.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

The open spots at Championship serve an important task, and I certainly hope they never go away.

They help expose teams who might not have the best robots to the Championship experience, as we all know it's nothing like a Regional. This can whet a team's appetite and start a self-perpetuating effort in said team to improve their team to increase the chances that their team can win a spot in future seasons. A team who never has this opportunity might never know what Championships is like, and thus might not put in the extra effort to try to win their spot in. Since FIRST is about the Inspiration, giving all teams the chance to be inspired by the Championship should remain a top goal. Thus, we must always set aside a quantity of open-lottery positions.

Adding additional awards to become "Championship Qualifiers" is moot, because everyone will pick the one award or category that their own team is really good at.

As for the quality of robots at the Championship, even if every team there has to win their way in, there will still be mediocre robots. Just because a team wins RCA or EI doesn't necessarily mean they'll have an Einstein-caliber robot.

And one final thing: it may be impossible for some teams to ever go to the Championship (even if they win) unless they register during the open period. Why? Some schools and organizations have strict annual budgeting rules. Waiting until said team wins a spot to decide to go may not leave enough time for the school administration/etc to approve funding for Championships. On a similar token, it may be much cheaper for teams looking to attend the Championships to register during the open period to take advantage of better airfair/hotel rates than struggle at the last minute to arrange details.

What does this mean?

The "other teams" you speak of have just as much chance to raise money and register during the open lottery period as every other team. Or if by "other teams", you mean the teams that may have won Technical Awards or finished the Regional as finalists, c'est la vie. Winning these awards, sans any additional ones that qualify for Championships, should serve as a "you're on the right track, now work a little bit harder next year" reminder.

This may seem contradictory to my earlier comments about the open lottery at first glance, but in reality it's anything but. They're two goals that serve different needs: one to inspire teams (every few years) to work harder, and the other to reward the teams that have worked harder.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

There would be more of a struggle in planning of going to Nationals if teams had no idea they were going until 2 weeks before. Here in Michigan you have no idea if you qualify for nationals unless you know you are the best of the best until State Competition which is the weekend of this week. A ticket for chairmans isn't decided until now for example. This leaves not a lot of time to get arrangements for plane tickets, hotel bookings, and transportation.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

An "if I were king of FIRST" post:

Instead of a "first to click" system I would propose a points/merit/time based system and let everybody know what this order was in say June.

The points in this system would be similar to Michigan's championship points structure with the individual match winning points removed (but leaving in alliance selections for playoffs, playoff match values, and winning bonuses). Also added to the structure would be the number of seasons since your team has been to championship (by any means) cubed (this is a massive bonus for teams that haven't been for three years or more and that's the point). Teams that go to more then one regional (and all MI teams) would get the highest scored regional (or district) they attended that year. Points are awarded post-season and the order doesn't change midseason.

In May / June each year FIRST would release "The List" which would list every team that has been active in either of the last two years in descending points order. Teams would then have until a fixed date (Oct 15?) to submit to FIRST a decision on pass or play their open bid to championship (teams can change their minds up until the deadline, after the deadline a team may change from play to pass but not the other way around). One week after the deadline a revised list of just the teams who elected to use an Open Bid would be released. The top teams on the list (i.e. the ones with the most points) would get their bids right then and there and those who are leftover would become the waitlist.

If a team wins a merit based bid they are removed from the list for open bids and it opens to the next team in line. This is important because of the next bit:

Every team that uses an open bid to get in to championships would have their point total reset to 0. This would happen before the current season's points are added so they would still have points from whatever awards they earned in the current season and that would place them ahead of Rookies (who could, under this system, apply to championships from the bottom of the list) and teams that have been inactive for two years.

It allows teams to know in the spring what their chances are of getting an open bid and lets them make decisions about it besides hoping that their internet connection doesn't go out on the wrong day.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Just curious because i do not believe i have ever heard of it mentioned but what are FIRST Legacy Teams? like what does that status mean? and who are they?

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

now that you mention it. Why does FIRST call it a Championship?

but once they qualify (which they have every year). there should be slot that opens up where a team on the waiting list can get it.

I'm curious if FIRST allows teams to get on the top of the Waiting list instead of the AQ Bid. considering you wouldn't have to pay immediately, this could be a advantage for teams that struggle to get money for the event in October.

FIRST Legacy teams are teams that were around since 1992.
FIRST Hall of Fame Teams are teams that have own the Chairmans Award at Championship.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

A FIRST Legacy team has competed every year since the beginning of FRC in 1992, (I believe).

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Yep.
These are the ones I can recall for now.
20.45. 126. 131(?). 148. 190. 191.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

To continue to clarify, automatic bids are also given to the Championship Winning Alliance and Championship Engineering Inspiration Award winners.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

I think the process for teams to get to championships is perfectly fine if the goal is to get about 350 teams. The only thing I hate is the race to click for open spots once it begins.
As stated earlier in this thread, many teams that qualify dont/cant attend. Without the open bids to go, I could see that 350 shrink significantly to a lot less.
Now if it isnt a priority/goal for FIRST, then disregard the above statements.:)

Teams that can afford to go, should be allowed to sign up based on when they pay. If you cant afford it, do something about it. Preplan ahead of time. Sure, unfortunate things happen where teams just cant go............well, welcome to real life. There is always next year.
We always shake our heads when we see teams pull up in chartered buses, big trucks with trailers, and packed cars to the GWCC. :)

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

We received a Rookie All Star award and cannot attend Atlanta this year.
At the start of the year, the school gave the team the option to compete at two regionals -OR- one regional and Atlanta (if qualified). Not expecting to receive an invitation to Atlanta, the team opted for two regionals as their best chance to have an extended competition season. Then when the invite to Atlanta arrived, and the team wanted to drop going to North Star and switch to Atlanta, it was just logistically too difficult to pull off in such a short amount of time, not to mention that the schools "human resources" now had overlapping schedules with Atlanta. So we are glad to know someone else will fill our slot.
We also learned that, by virtue of not exercising our 2010 Atlanta invite, we do have an early priority access for next year's open slots in St. Louis, so there does seem to be some fairness in at least certain aspects to the process.
-Dick Ledford

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Actually 1511 has qualified through awards/winning every single year, so in effect, our registration in the first part of the season is given to a team on the waiting list. So they did not "take" the open "experience" slots from anyone. They were part of the teams that everyone seems to agree "deserve" to be at championships because they won their way there. I am certainly not for a free for all registration (no awards qualifiers), but I think the open registration system (opening first to teams that haven't gone - for nearly a month!) is a fair way to go. If a team really feels strongly that they want that experience for their students, they should spend the entire year fundraising. 1511 holds 5-6 carwashes over the summer, and does a patron drive in the fall, in addition to many other fundraisers AND our corporate sponsorship. It is a lot of hard work, but its not handed to us on a silver platter. If teams are willing to work for it and save up the money, I like that there are slots open for them to go. If they want to sit back and complain that they should have been handed a slot, or the award that they won should have qualified them, it just doesn't make sense. Where there is a will there is a way.

If FIRST moves to a "you have to win to register" system, I would hope that they push Championships off by 3-4 weeks to give more teams a chance to not pay a fortune for travel costs.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

This is the roughest part of winning your way in. The FIRST time my team won their way in after I joined was 2004. We won a week 5 regional, Philly, and had at most a week and a half to raise the money and book travel. That is not easy to do. We shipped the robot to Atlanta and hoped we could get the money to go.

In 2006 we were lucky enough to win week 3 and still have a week 5 event to go to. We won both and raised the money to go in between.

In my opinion as a mentor the easiest year to plan for was 2008 when were were a pre-qualified team, defending champions, because we knew we could go all year and planned for it raised the money and went. The luxary of that much foreknowledge is a great thing. Hall of Fame and founding teams have that luxary every year and I am jealous of them for it.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Nothing is keeping you from planning to go every year.

You don't even need to bring a robot if you don't get in during the open registration or through winning a qualifying award. It's not just about competing. You can volunteer and help make things run smoother for everyone. You can attend the workshops. You can watch the FTC and FLL matches. You can still be inspired by other teams' robots.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

I'm personally a huge fan of the Open Slots for the Championship.

816 has gotten into the Championship in 2006, 2008 and 2009 because of this. If FIRST were to move to a winners only Registration system then I think they would have a lot of difficulties filling the Championship up due to both budget and logistical constraints. I know many school districts require a months notice or more before a school trip can be planned so even if some teams win a week 4 or 5 event their school may not let them go.

Also, in some years there are other side programs that can earn a team an invite to the Championship. In 2007 I believe the FIRST Fuel Cell teams all earned an early invite to the Championship so that they could display their fuel cell projects. I believe that this was how we got a spot in 2007.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Just a quick note --

two years ago, my team went to championships, and upon arriving there we fond a number of our other georgia teams had suddenly gotten off the waiting list (like within 3-4 days of champs starting :eek: ) Turns out, that year was the same one that a NY regional was held the week before championships. The reason those teams got picked out of wherever they were on the waiting list is because they were local enough that hey didn't need a lot of time to figure out logistics.

That is probably my only reason for liking the idea that champs moves to St. Louis next year. A lot more teams will be "local" (ish) and not have to worry about last minute plane flights and things. I say that's my only reason because i enjoyed having champs in my backyard ever since i joined the first community in 2003 :) i will sorely miss volunteering when our team wasn't able to attend, but hey, i'm sure it'll come around again another time

The one thing i like about the open slots is that teams who can build good robots (or will) and happen to be the ones that don't win regionals (maybe #2 :rolleyes: ) can go, and they don't lessen the calibur of teams there. True, there are teams that signed up and then managed not to build good robots, and those teams don't generally make it into finals for any division or einstein, so why worry about it really?

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

I apologize if it sounded like I was picking on your team, that wasn't my intent. 1511 is a team I truely look at as a team we'd like to emulate.

That being said, we, here in 1729, won't go tothe championships unless we earn it through either an award or winning our regional. Our reasoning is that it is a (championship) competition, and as such we are trying to win in the area with which we qualified (EI, CA, regional champion). I believe it focuses the kids more since they know that if they want to go they need to succeed at the regional level.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

On the flip side, the negative feeling when you don't qualify at an event, and the immense pressure everyone on the team feels when you have to qualify or lose, are both detrimental to any team's success. I say this having been on both sides of the coin.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Agreed, that there is some of this. We talk about expectations and such long before the competition so that the kids are prepared for any situation. Learning how to handle defeat graciously, and how to overcome adversity is a good lesson. In the end, learning to dislike losing and learning how much effort it takes to win (along with the rewards of winning) is also a good lesson.

Pressure and stress is something that they are going to have to cope with if they want to become and engineer and is a good lesson to learn in the relatively safe enviroment of FIRST.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

A third side of the coin is available to a very few teams. The TechnoKats enjoy knowing that we are eligible to attend the Championship whether or not we qualify through winning a specific award. This takes the pressure off and helps let us enjoy the competition without worrying about the extra stress of a "win or stay home" scenario.

(I don't know whether that has anything to do with the fact that we have always qualified by receiving one of the qualifying awards anyway. That we haven't had to rely on the "legacy team" clause is a matter of pride.)

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Yet another way to 'qualify' for Atlanta is via FTC. While most do not believe it has the same hype as FRC, it is always just as fun and I expect our students to get the exact same amount out of it as the FRC kids do. Plus I should have more time to peruse the pits since I don't work on the robot :D.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Coming from a location that is just about as far from Atlanta as a team can get....(except the Hawaiian and Alaskan teams and the foreign teams...) I can speak to the issue of trying to get an "open" spot in November. It allows us to make our plans in advance.... to raise airfare from Seattle for our team is a huge undertaking.

The other side of the coin is that we have qualified 6 times in the last 4 years by virtue of Regional Wins, Rookie All Star, EI or RCA so we have always "won" our way in too.

But laying that aside..... the Championship was never designed to bring all the best robots together and decide on who is best... Just look at the way we pick alliances... we never get the 3 BEST robots on one alliance anyway... FIRST is designed this way....

Get over it.... Winning the championship is a lot of fun... but in many ways it is just like a regional... Does anyone out there actually think that the 3 best robots win ANY regional? Of course not... Alliance picking breaks up the best robots...

I love the way we do this... and our team has been on the receiving end of a regional win and on the other end too...we have won when we were definitely NOT one of the best robots on the field....I will cite an example... in our first year in Las Vegas we were a decent robot but we got picked 24th by the #1 alliance....(Thank you 254 and 1425) As part of that alliance we went on to win... other things have happened too... I have seen GREAT robots not win a regional for many reasons...

FIRST CHAMPIONSHIPS is about inspiring teams.... it has NEVER been about bringing the best robots there...

Would you really like to have something like what they do for the NCAA championships? Can you even imagine how hard it would be to try and pick the best robots? Come on...

Championships started as EVERYONE going.... now about 1/3 can choose to go...


Think about this... if you really wanted the Championships to be about the best robots... first of all you would not have the support of FIRST....

(It is NOT about the robot...)

second... you would have to have someone else pay for transportation and lodging and the registration fee for every team...

otherwise teams that could simply not afford to go still couldn't go...

I like the system.... every year we have won our way in... but other than our rookie year... we could sign up and do the work necessary to go... and still let other teams that are on the waiting list get in because we won our way in...


I like the system...I like FIRST...working in it inspires my students...
it motivates them to be the best that they can be....

thanks for listening... I hope to see you on the field!!
or in the pits...

R

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

I am sure FIRST gives open bids to the Championships to assure that the event gets filled each season. After the initial registration for all the prequalified teams the "12-noon free for all" for the remaining slots in the model not designated for those earned in competition is supposed to fill the rest.

This year it didn't really work too well and all the slots were filled in minutes only to have a number be vacated weeks later when the money was due.

At first our team missed the slot (by seconds apparently) when the open registration began. Our team regrouped and decided then to hold our money towards the Hawaiian regional next year if we didn't win a slot for the Championships. When the wait list opened up later in the fall we were invited and turned it down. Fate had it that we did indeed win a slot at NJ and we registered then. So we now have a daunting fund raising year ahead of us if we plan to still make the trip to HI.

Overall this year has changed our/my view of the Championships and open enrollment. Every team deserves a chance to experience the event- that much is certain. Like Olympic teams, very few will win the big event but all benefit from the experience and the pride of representing their school on the big stage.

The move I see to make FIRST more like regional and divisional HS sports is unfortunate because it will most likely reduce the opportunities for the less successful teams to participate in non-local events. Overall I prefer the "local tournament" model similar to that of travel soccer where teams can sign up for any event they want to register for and it doesn't require weeks for local competitions to determine who the travelers are. As for the Championships, maybe I can see winning a spot as the ONLY way to qualify. That way it is a TRUE championship. But if it is just a "celebration of robotics" then open enrollment lends for a much more diverse celebration

WC :cool:

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Repped.

Several years ago FRC had a multi-tier system for CMP pre-registration. Teams who had not gone for the previous 3 years could sign up immediately. The reasoning expressed for this was that FIRST wanted every student to experience the CMP sometime in a 4-year FRC career. Then a week later teams that had not gone for 2 years could enroll, then teams that had not gone the prior year, and finally open registration.

But as I recall it turned out that not many teams signed up in those first couple weeks. If your team had not attended for at least 3 years, you probably weren't making plans to ever attend. It was likely a financial issue or school travel restrictions. So they made the current two-tier system.

Another factor is that Atlanta (and presumably St. Louis) can accomodate more teams. A perusal of the archives shows 291 teams were in Houston in 2003. There are now somewhere in the neighborhood of 340-350 teams. Even with more regional events, that's still an increase of open slots.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

I had my ticket and was planning on going with other mentors before we got in off the waitlist. When it comes to the students however that situation is way more complex with our school district.

If we hadn't gotten in I probably would have joined a friend's team for the weekend to help out, or if I'm feeling masochistic I would volunteer to inspect:ahh: .

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

So i think i got a really neat idea that might actually work.

What if FIRST held "heats" or "Last Minute Qualifier" events on Tues/Wed or Just Wed.?

The system would run like this

32 Teams per heat
3 Qualifying Matches for each team
Alliance Selection (4 Alliances).
Heat Alliance Winners advance to compete at Championships
1 Additional spot handed out to a team so that they may compete at Championships (determined among referee's, and field staff)*

These events would be run on a low cost system. no video boards or black curtains would be active. no MC etc.

Teams that want to compete in these "heats" would pay $2,000 to compete in one of these events and then another $3500 to compete at the Championship Event.

The event would be pretty short, 16 qualification matches on a 7-8 minute cycle (considering some of the field stuff would be in the process of being set up, ie Black Curtain's Video Board etc.) and a minimum of six elimination matches would bring the event's length down to a short 4.5 hours.

Heat 1: 8:30am - 1:00pm
Heat 2: 1:00pm - 5:30pm

Considering you would have four fields, you could get 256 teams to compete for 32 spots each day
(If the event was done Tues/Wed, then teams that did not qualify in their heat Tuesday, could compete in one on Wednesday).

*= if the winning alliance consists of 3 teams and a backup robot, the backup robot would gain the 4th AQ spot.

What do you guys think?

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

As a quick note, if you really want the Championship to be about putting the best teams on the field, you're not going to allow 350 teams to attend regardless of how they qualify. If you're adamant about keeping the 4 divisions, you'll invite ~200-240 for 50-60 teams per division. If you don't mind ditching the divisions, you're going to invite 50-60 total teams.

That's going to drive up the matches/team and remove more of he lower-par teams from the qualifications that introduce entropy to the rankings by dragging down higher caliber teams when playing matches with them. This will result in more accurate rankings and a higher average-level of teams at the event, without so few teams as to create unreasonably short turnaround times (as happens in small events) or scarcity of robot types and quality robots by the time the 24th selection roles around.

Re: Why Give Open Bids to the Championship?
 

Reported.