After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

First of all, this is my very first year of doing any robotics clubs or anything. I noticed that FIRST is actually pretty lame overall. Its not very professional as they make it sound ("Gracious Professionalism") Sure I do see some graciousness, but I do not see the professionalism. Teams are willing to help and give stuff out, but in the end, their sole purpose is selfishness. All they want is points and reputation. It was more like a fashion show than an actual robot competition. All the teams were trying to advertise their team by wearing stupid costumes and decorating their pits. My school is not very rich, I know that the "richer" schools got a lot more funding than us, but I am not complaining about that. I seen some AMAZING robots this regional, unfortunately its the only regional we can attend, since we lack the funding. Well since our school is not very rich, our sports department lacks fancy uniforms and equipments. Since I am in Football and Track, I seen professionalism. We show professionalism by not talking with our mouths but the scoreboard. IDK, I think FIRST competition system is not the best system... :rolleyes: In before flames. I am sure there are people out there with similar ideas...

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Before this thread blows up, thanks for presenting your viewpoint with at least a touch of respect, and without calling out other teams for doing anything. I disagree with most of what you say, but I'm glad you made your point without giving people a reason to discount it immediately.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Well I was hoping that the competition was soley based on points and stuff, all numbers, not people's opinions on our robots. I didn't like that fact that the judges did not judge on points but on the word of mouth of the teams. And for the finals, the teams chose teams, I think it should have been random teams out of the top 15 or something. Sometimes, Simple and clean is the best, not all fancy over the top stuff like I seen in alot of teams. just consistency and being good at what you do

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Many people are ignorant of the fact of what FIRST actually does. It was great that you showed your opinion but FIRST does A LOT for all of us. So what if your school can't go to many regionals. FIRST should be about the learning process that you go through not the competitions man. Even though you are on the football team and track team, are you going to persue those in your future? Embrace it if you want to it's your choice.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

David,

I don't believe we've met, but as a resident of the Crescenta Valley, and a long time friend of that area's two teams (589 and 696), I find your view point disappointing. I'm sorry you have not had as great of a time as the rest of us are having. I'm interested in finding out which teams you believe are selifish, and are only in it for the points and reputation. Rather than posting here, please send me a Private Message with your thoughts, as perhaps I may be able to clear up some common misconceptions, or reaffirm some of your view-points (in private).

I agree that some of the customes, and music, and flair is often a bit silly. But, it's kids (and often adults) having fun, and that's what this is all about. Different teams will run their programs different ways, and there's nothing you can do to stop them, other than to run yours the way you see fit.

I'd like you to stick around and give FIRST (and your team) another chance, and you might surprise yourself.

Also, one last point. You'd be surprised to hear how little money some of the "good teams" actually have. As in, some of them never know whether there will be a subsequent year. And some of them have so little, that their mentors must make personal financial sacrifices so the team is able to continue functioning. Please do not make assumptions without knowing all the facts.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

No I not bashing on FIRST but the whole competition not the company, IDK if you understand, you can love football but hate the BCS

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

So you base things off of how the competitions are? Why do that? Competitions are where teams show off who they are and give every effort to help others. The games are there to have fun man. I know I have a blast every year with them and look forward to them every year. I don't know what you're seeing but FIRST offers so much fun!

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

FRC selections are like building your own football team.

I don't see that the competition is based on people's opinions; the only part that is is the alliance selection, and the better scouts know that the only thing that matters is what you do on the field. Unfortunately, due to human nature, insulting a scout will wind you up with a note about "Rude team. Use caution." (Not saying you did, just stating a general fact.)

Judges have their own system. It involves going around and looking at the robots. If they like what they see, they'll come and talk to the team. That's how the awards are given, and that's the way it's called out in the rules for the awards to be judged.

By the way, I wouldn't make such general comments about "all the teams" doing something if I were you. I know that a number of teams do not decorate their pits or wear costumes (and stupidity, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder). If you walked into your archrival's football training facility and started making comments like that, no matter how it was decorated, I would bet that you'd find out very quickly why football and track athletes talk with the scoreboard instead of their mouths. Quite a number of teams do decorate their pits, and that's fine by me--they're trying to attract the attention of the top 8. For the L.A. top 5 or so this year, it wouldn't have worked very well. Those teams tend to scout the field performance, and they do very well at that.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Sorry but I can not help but disagree with your opinion about "selfishness." People helping led you to think that everyone is selfish? I don't recall there being points for giving a team a needed part like a cRIO. Also, reputation is earned is it not? How do you expect teams to get reputation by not helping others? If they do you claim it is selfishness. Sorry, I just got a little angry at that opinion.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

As a long time participant in FIRST, I can assure you that 99% of the stuff people do is genuine and sincere.

sure there are those who will do stuff for the pat on the back, but for the most part (read: 99% of the time) true FIRSTers do it [the right thing] because they're infected with the FIRST spirit :] .

you'll notice this when people are giving their opponents a hand before the next match, and when lending classmate batteries (or just whole classmates!) to other teams who are having trouble...

I'm not knocking you down for calling it as you see it (in fact: kudos for doing so!), but I think that if you stick with it you'll come to see that in FIRST, the unbelievable is true: people are actually selfishly helping other people! :ahh:

regarding the whole parade/fashion show thing: yeah making a name for yourself is a big part of FIRST, as it is in many other sports. I see nothing wrong with this when it's done tastefully.

regarding professionalism: that's just up to you. being professional is a decision you can make. and frankly professional teams are those who command the most respect from me. seeing a team perform like a formula 1 (or NASCAR for you americans.. :)) pit crew is always an inspiring site. it's up to you (and your team) to decide you want to strive for this, and if you want to you could try and spread this goal (being professional) throughout your regional.

again, kudos.
-Leav

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

I don't know how your team functions or what your circumstances are, but for me, FRC was always much more than the competitions. 6 weeks of building a robot with people who became close friends and coming together as a team to accomplish difficult tasks, or to provide community service for the rest of the year were the key aspects of my experience.

Sometimes you may see things in FIRST that make you wonder how effective the system really is, but look at some of the teams. RAWC, 190, and 4 were all at your event, and are all very professional behaving teams (I don't know of many SoCal teams, so don't take this as a limit).

I don't know of many teams that aren't trying to post a solid score, that would be against the purpose of the competition. Most teams are gracious in helping others and cheer loudly for all that they have accomplished, but the professionalism shows clearly in the pit (most pits I have seen) where the team comes together in an organized fashion to prepare their robot to compete. I would never expect a driver to leave anything out of their effort either.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Team 330? You had a beast of a robot this year, but IDK, the announcer guy made it seem so unprofessional for me...Yea sure his job may be to entertain, but he was acting unprofessional IMHO... Do you see DARPA Grand Challenge announcers doing that? :rolleyes: I think not

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Two things.

In regard to the awards (which I believe you are referring to with the judges). First, if you read the disciption of the awards, most of them include the requirement of the team being able to communicate and explain how it works. Secondly, once you apply to colleges and then to jobs, being able to explain and market yourself is extremely important. They do not soley 'go by the numbers' (gpa, test scores...). Like everything in life, opinion matters. In this sense, the awards are actually very 'professional'.

In regards to alliance selection, I can understand how it seems silly to have the teams pick their partners. In the past, teams were paired up based on their rankings. But, picking your partners is a huge reward to those teams that were the best on Friday and Saturday morning. I think it would be silly not to reward those teams and do it randomly.

I urge you to give FIRST another try.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Does the DARPA Grand Challenge even have announcers?

And I believe that you are referring to the emcee, who's job is to fire up the crowd, much like a cheerleader at a football game. If you object to that, then I suggest that you float a proposition to disband any cheer squad you have at your high school.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

I have not heard the announcer at this event but what do you exactly define as unprofessional from the person?

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Picking of alliances is similar to professional sports drafts. You pick a player who you think will work well with your team, whether or not that player is the highest ranked or not.

And the atmosphere of sporting events is far beyond just what goes on the field/court. The cheerleaders, announcers, team mascots, gimmicks at time-outs or halftime, music, singing "Take Me Out to the Ball Game", etc - what does any of that have to do with the game? It doesn't, but it makes the whole experience into entertainment. That's also one of the goals of FRC. Sure, sometimes things go a little overboard or get sappy. But a FRC competition isn't meant to be like a symposium reading engineering papers either.

Sorry if the event didn't meet your expectations. But were you at all inspired during the whole season, from kickoff through build to competition?

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Funny thing was, I was playing Madden on the Laptop half the time.. LOL if you seen me, you probably will recognize me... the big asian guy with a buzz cut playing madden

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

To be fair you are thinking of the MC, not the announcer. I don't know who the announcer was, but I thought he was fantastic. very knowledgeable about the game and the robots. I was not a big fan of the MC.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

You may have had an experience this weekend that led you to believe this, but I guarantee that this is not true for most of the teams in FIRST. Take this for example, those teams had no points or reputation to gain, all the judging has already been completed by that time. They had nothing to gain by making the gesture that they did, and in fact could have been eliminated because of it, but they did it anyway.

If you asked one of these people why they were singing or dancing or dressing a certain way you would probably find that it has very little to do with advertising their team. FRC regionals provide an environment for students (and professional engineers) where it is perfectly safe and acceptable to "let loose" and sing dance, wear funny hats, and generally have a good time for a weekend.

I would suggest, as others have in this thread, that you give FIRST at least one more shot. I will also suggest however, that FRC isn't for everyone. It's perfectly fine to decide that this competition isn't for you. There are many other science, engineering, and robotics competitions that may be more what you are looking for.

Most of the "richer" teams do not get funding from their schools. They get it from a combination of corporate sponsors and fundraising such as car washes, bake sales, etc. Most or all of these teams work very hard for what they have.

In football and track, the goal is to win on the scoreboard as you have stated. In FRC the most prestigious award is earned off the field. FRC is about changing the culture and our most prestigious award recognizes that. The Chairman's award is earned with your mouth, not on the scoreboard.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

David-

Think of the competitions like a High School football team. No matter how awesome you are, you won't get national attention. It's High School. It's about learning to be athletic, and honing yourself and your team. High School football is more about the team than it is about the winning or losing.

FIRST is the same way.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

i personally don't agree with your opinion, but we're all entitled to our own.

FIRST is out there to get students excited about science, math and technology careers. The best way to do that is by showing how much fun you can have doing it. Who really wants to go end up in a job where they're not going to have any fun at all? Most people don't.

There are actually some awards that are based off the numbers (highest rookie seed award) but the majority are based off of how well the team presents themselves and tells their story. Which you end up having to do to get into both college and a good job. --> very important in the professional world.

As for the "costumes" many of the things i think you're calling 'unprofessional' are mascots and cheerleader type costumes. They're made for the sole purpose of cheering their team on, just like football and most other sports. As for shirts and jerseys, it makes finding the other students on your team ten times easier, especially is a crowd of thousands of students. Remember in kindergarten, when you had to wear a specific shirt to go on the field trip? same concept, but also so that other teams can recognize where you're from.

MC's -like a DJ at a dance party, they're meant to entertain and keep people excited and moving (back to the point of not making things seem boring)

also, maybe you didn't have a good experience because you spent the majority of the time playing a video game :confused: i agree with most of the others, you should give FIRST another shot, an open mind is the best kind to have.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

You could try giving FRC a shot by not playing a video game for a lot of the time? Teams would slam down on the vast disinterest shown by going all the way to competition then spend a lot of time looking at a video game.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

I think that this perfectly describes your problem: You were not in to the game, so you didn't like it.

It seems to me that the more people attend build sessions, the more fun they have at competition. How often did you attend? Were you one of the people who shows up once a week, or when you were there did you just play Madden?
I don't mean to insult, or accuse, but as I have seen from my team, the amount of fun is directly proportional to the amount of work you do.

This was my first FIRST attendance, and I was amazed by how much fun I had. I feel sorry for you.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

I didn't read very much past the OP. So if I am restating something... Well. I frankly don't care.

You say that we are "Selfish" if that is true. Why, in the middle of mass chaos of our robot not working, did I take time out to help out any time that asked? Why, when our programmer was deep in his work, did I request that he go help another team? Out of selfishness? Or selflessness?

Unproffesional to be selfish? Sense when?!? Why does you team get money from the state, sponsors, ect. Because they want smart employees! It is NOT out of the bottom of their heart. (Most of the time) So before you say that everyone is selfish and unproffesional. Take a look at the reason WalMart buys from China instead of the USA.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

The problem was Robotics Club was fun until the middle of the competition... There was no more bugs for me to fix, no more stuff to put in, all the problems were hardware, so I had to spend my time somehow... I was a "driver" so I had to be in the pit till our turn, so I couldn't go watch...

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Maybe you could have spent your time helping out another team with their non-hardware problems? Or spent your time cheering on other teams. Or helped the scouts. Or made some friends on other teams. This is how other students (who enjoy the competitions more) spend their time.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

I guess I just went to the competition with a sour taste in my mouth, the code was messy, so I got in trouble by my mentor for that... and we had problems first 4-5 matches, the class mate was broken and had to be reformatted. We were in the match that the field wifi system went hay wire or something. Our robot didn't respond a match. The IR sensor did not work in autonomous mode so our robot drove into the tower and we got a penelty for crossing the line. It was the only regional we could go, so I know this was the last time I had to work on the robot, I was not in a good mood. When it worked, it was fantastic little robot. Just pissed why we didn't make the finals... Just regret is all I remember from the competition.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

After being in this nine years, I can say if this little bit of unfortunate times is all you've experienced, you're doing just fine. ;-) Next time, check out some other team's robots, an figure out how they do what they do. Meet some people, make some friends, and have a good time. When your own team isn't doing as well as you'd like to, there's still plenty of fun to be had in other ways.

Your FIRST experience is what you make it.

Also, if your team is willing to raise the funds, I'd like to remind you that the fabulous Indiana Robotics Invitational will (I think?) be taking place in July. Team 980 from not too far away has gone every year. You might consider proposing to your team that they apply for this event.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

A lot of the most spirited/weird/out there teams are that way because they embrace FIRST, but not only the spirit side, also the professional side. As a FIRST alumni of 233 I wish my team was the most spirited and colorful out there this weekend, but I know for as much effort they put into being spirited and cheering, they put at least ten times that into being professional. Judges like color because it shows enthusiasm for the competition and equally important to them is knowing your robot. FIRST might not always make sense to an outside observer; and trust me I'm no fan of the BCS (even if it helps my team out...Go gators!), but you have to look past the colorful outfits and screaming teams to get the real point of FIRST, Inspiration. If they have all these kids screaming at the top of their lungs for science and technology, then they're doing something right. FIRST changed me from a lawyer to a mechanical engineering student in college and that is something I will never forget.

In terms of the finals, I know my team as well as most others have a pretty good system down for ranking teams, in which team color isn't a factor. Yes, opinion matters and in selections sometimes luck plays in, but we've picked teams that were plywood boxes before because we thought they were the best team.

If you're a football guy, I'm surprised you aren't a driver (maybe you tried out, idk), but that's probably the best position for a guy who is competitive. I knew thats what I wanted to be, so I went for it, and if you haven't tried it, you might want to go for it because there is nothing funner than being on that field. Just some of my experiences/suggestions, but either way, I hope you give FIRST another shot.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

That is true, but I always been taught, get in, get out, get the job done and just say good game, nothing more, nothing less. Always know what your job is and your team mate's job. But I guess that does not apply to FIRST then...

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

:D Loved one of your mentor's pink beard... I was a "driver" I just stood next to the actual driver and just got first row seats.. I was the big asian guy with a buzz cut

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

I didn't go lol, I'm at UF...but yeah, thats Mike, hes a great mentor
if you ever see him again, go talk to him, I always learn something new when I talk to him.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Not to be giving suggestions, but if you guys want to actually use the full complement of two drivers like our team does, allocate duties: One driver drives the robot while the other person does the auxiliary tasks, such as kicking and hanging. It has worked great for us every year.

If you guys really dont want to do that, let you second driver be a second pair of eyes, or a coach.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

From what I have seen that is different from what I know for FIRST. People communicate with other teams beyond good game. For example at West Michigan District in the pit one of our seniors got approached for an autograph by a person from a different team :D it was a pretty amusing event if you only seen it. It is good to have teams to work on different parts but everyone can get involved with something else. If you are a programmer you could learn to help with some hardware if the code is finished.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

24 teams make the eliminations. 59 teams are on the team list.That means that 35 teams don't make eliminations, and at least 27 have no chance at all (not high enough of a seed to be a backup robot).

You seeded 20th. This is generally regarded as backup robot territory. As a matter of fact, you were the #6 robot on the backup list (which goes up to 8 robots). This is not the best spot to be in, but at least you have a chance, however slim, of making it into the eliminations.

I have a challenge for you. Instead of focusing on the negative aspects that you observed, find a way to become competitive enough to consistently be in the quarterfinals, or the #1 backup robot. I've looked at your team's history--you've been twice. You've got something that can get you there. You need to cultivate it. (Note: the last time you made it, in 2008, you ran up against 330, 1717, and 980 in quarterfinals while paired with 1538 and 207. There wasn't much anyone could do in that type of situation except fight hard.)

Oh, and try to convince your advisors to sign up for the SCRRF Fall Classic. It's a more low-key post-season event, where you can relax, talk to other teams, and just enjoy the competition. It's also much smaller, giving you more time to interact with other teams and a higher chance of making eliminations.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

IDK if that idea really works... because when you play games, does that ever happen? One guy moves the player and the other aims and shoots? Our driver was fantastic, when our bot was working fine we got all our balls on our side into the goal. and we has 2 or 3 "coaches", and 1 driver at a time

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Team 85 here does that. One guy does the driving. The other one controls the kicking mechanism and the roller, later arm when we get it working eventually :ahh: .

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

FIRST IS different. It's not just about "my job is done here." There's always room for improvement, there are teams who would consider you a guru and thank you for any help you could offer. That separates FIRST from other competitions...big time.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Do you realize all I remember about your team was your yellow skinny jeans that the girls wore... Back to the topic, I personally want more interaction in the off season, thats where it counts the most in anything, sports and academics.. You don't study like the day before SATs hoping you will ace it, you need to prepare. I agree we need more offseason stuff, I got to tell my teacher that, cause my mentor says the only thing the team does after the regional is a final party at the end of the year and thats it...

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

IT works. We were alliance captains, and got knocked out in the semifinals by one point to the winning alliance. This game is not basketball, or soccer. It is FRC.

You also complain about being a poor team: Our school gives almost nothing besides a building and amazing teachers. We get our money from fundraising and sponsors.

This is so true. Our team and team 365 chilled together for quite a while talking and chatting. They ended up beating us in the semifinals, but they ending giving their "moeaward". I still am not sure what that is, but I cant wait to talk with some of their team again. They were all so nice, and it makes me feel proud to be part of a game where teams can be nice, and still compete.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Ask Shane, the drive coach on 330 (and the only one who didn't wear the yellow jeans), about that.

For reference, Shane and Elijah, his arm/shooter operator, won 4 regionals, 2 Championship divisions, the Championship, and 1 IRI in 4 years as a drive team. In addition, they picked up 2 regional finalists and 1 IRI finalist.

Yep, it works. It can also take a load off the driver by allowing another person to take some of his duties. The hard part is to have a drive team instead of two drivers. That can only come through practice and trust.

BTW, I was referring to 2008, which was Shane's last year as a driver. There are those who consider him one of the best drivers in FRC.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

We lacked practice, we did not have a defined driver until the day of the competition, we were just lucky our driver we picked was good at what he did... Or we wouldnt even be ranked, Yea Next year there are TONS of things to change about our team

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

I would say what they gave you is an award for growing. moe means "budding" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_%28slang%29

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

LOL Im probably gonna get bashed on by my mentors for treason or something once they find this thread...

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

You could always fly here to Michigan. :D We got enough mountain dew for everyone.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/member.php?u=12462 won't. As a matter of fact, get to him first and tell him this thread is out here. I'd be willing to bet that he'll back you up on some of these things.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

He hasnt posted in over a year, I doubt he checks his PMs.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

:ahh: yep thats my mentor... but that was long time ago, doubt he uses that account

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

He's been on in the last couple of weeks. And, with one of his team's drivers being the one starting the thread, it's a safe bet that they know each other and how to contact each other via other means.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Quick run to the batmobile!

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

You have a personal mentor?
Or does he just do programming and you are the only programmer?

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Don't worry I chatted with my other mentor (Close friend of the one you posted) and he actually agrees with me on some stuff. He says he dislikes FIRST competition year by year, he thinks that the older times were better, probably bad experiences with WindRiver last year

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

We have 2 programming mentors and about 3 programmers, but the other 2 programmers did not really contribute to the actual code... I doubt they can even use java.:confused: My mentor will test all programmers on C next year to weed out the noobs:rolleyes:

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Why not teach the noobs some C too :)

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

practice for the driver is crucial. trust me.
and thats a good attitude to have. go into next year wanting to kick more butt than ever before. fund raise like crazy so you guys can go to 2 regionals. continuous improvement.
and competition and FRC is what you make it.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

I clicked on the rapidly growing thread dreading another kid bashing FRC and just being arrogant.

But I like this thread. It shows progression of a person's opinion for the betterment of his own team.

Kudos to you David, for actually taking advice given and hearing people out.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

I will try my best for the team, I personally DGAFed on my code this year, will have to work harder on it. and fundraise and offseason work. In fact I am going to try to make a little robot my self from scratch and solder every wire and stuff together my self to practice for next year

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

You could get your team to make pig in blankets and sell em by the dozen? That is what my team does. Though there is the point of having to endure making these things xD

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

My team gave out little tridents in the competition this year... we made like 300 of those... Im thinking of making an app or game for the iPhone or Android (or both) and selling it. May be Xbob Live even

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

my team does an E-Waste event and also sells Hexbugs at community events in our town. both of those raise substantial profit.
We also apply for grants and ask for support from local businesses.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

I need to suggest to my team now to host an E-Waste event :ahh:

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

What ever happened to "not trying to show off"? You guys do it, other teams do it. Its part of FIRST.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

It wasn't my idea, don't blame me

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

So what are your thoughts about the FIRST kit of parts? I personally don't like the fact that they make you use the CRio and Class mate and all those regulation stuff, its cool that they give us that, but I would much rather have the freedom to choose my microcontrollers and the means of communicating with my robot... Seems to reflect the "real life" more. Different companies have their own ways and products that they use to build their products... Its not all the same. I think more freedom will allow more interesting robots

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

It's one of the best ways to keep the field level. Think about it this way:

You are a team with a bare knowledge of programming, and so you do an R/C controller (like for a plane or a car). Your first match is against a team that has a computer on their robot, built and programmed by the team in ubercode, and controlled via a VR controller.

In addition to the nightmare I just described, there's another one: No way to govern the start/stop. Imagine being a ref going out to check that team X is hanging and having team Y not stop playing the match. Not pretty...

I'd much prefer the IFI system's reliability, but I like the power of the cRIO. Vision tracking with IFI was tough. Now, half the teams out there have it. But the IFI system didn't lose comm every other match.

I think that keeping limits on certain things keeps the field more level, and actually forces creativity. Yep, forces it. I'd love to see some rules modified (like I'd love to see an arm game again, and that means bumper gaps), but the creativity is now more subtle.

If you're interested, I think FIRST has the rules for previous games on their website. Take a look at the ones from the 1990s, especially the allowed materials list. Yep, there was a list of allowed materials. Not on the list? Sorry, can't use it. There were a lot of very creative robots in those years. Oh, and we get just motors now. When we used drill motors in drivetrains, sometimes they'd come in the drill. Now that's a fun dilemma: When do we take the drill apart to use it in the drive, because it's so useful in building the darn robot? :p

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

There's a few reasons.. First, it's less expensive getting the KoP than buying all your own things. FIRST gets them at reduced prices and passes those on. Secondly, it lessens the advantage to the more affluent teams (who you were complaining about) because they can get products that will run simply better than what other teams can afford. i'm sure there's more reasons, but those are just a couple.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

There are a lot of aspects of the control side of the competition that make a standard robot control system necessary, including safety and making it as easy for a team to get involved with at least a working robot. I can't really comment on individual control systems as that's not something I've done much work on, but there is a lot of logistical work that goes into determining certain parts of the rules including the controls.

I suggest you take a look at this thread in regards to why some teams seem to be so successful, and ways to get inspired to be more competitive.

It seems that you were perhaps discouraged a lot by problems with your robot or maybe you just had different expectations for the competition. Please hang in there and look for ways you can get more out of FIRST, you just might be surprised at what you can accomplish.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

I saw a bunch of kids (of ALL ages) playing with those tridents...very cool.

BTW, our robot driver from the Arizona Regional was unable to compete in LA, so the guy who was operating the kicker became the robot driver and a new student jumped in on kicker/roller control. The new robot driver literally drove the wheels off of our 2008 robot getting some practice since AZ. By time Sat afternoon came around, the robot driving was vastly improved.

As far as controllers and communications, this is the second year FRC is using the cRIO and the 5 GHz gaming adapter. FIRST doesn't have the resources for R&D of a major manufacturer of video games, still they put a sophisticated, high bandwidth communications architecture with a substantial amount of processing power in each robot. It will take time to work through all the bugs, with a lot of the "testing" occurring at the events. By finding and reporting problems, you are part of the solution. Over time, it will all get better.

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Actually, in LA the most common reasons for "loosing coom" were in no particular order:

Bad battery
Bad battery connection
loose radio power connection
loose cRio power connection
touchy Classmate ethernet connection (on Classmate side)
radio reset due to shock
one robot got turned off when a ball landed on the main breaker (my favorite)
we also had numerous teams forget to plug their radio back in after programming changes, but those were caught and corrected before match start

none of these have much to do with the field control system

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Practice robots are great. Whether it's your little "scratch" robot (you have heard of VEX, right?) or last year's robot with some tweaks, or a kitbot, if you have a second robot, your drivers can practice with it after your competition robot ships. That is, whenever the programmers aren't trying out new code on it. ;)

Team 330 has been doing this the past few years (our storage room has way too many robots, but that is just my opinion). We've found the practice robot to be very helpful.

By the way, how could you notice our team members' skinny yellow jeans, but not our robot's skinny yellow arm?

Re: After Coming Back From The LA Regional: My Thoughts On FIRST
 

Game announcer there was Dave Seidel of JPL. We were most fortunate to have him with us last year. He collects a bunch of info from the teams on Thursday and when the match list comes out, puts together a spreadsheet and pops out his own announcer sheets.

Here's an older conversation with Dave about what he does, etc.