Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I'm just going to go ahead and start discussion of the 2013 game, if you don't mind...

Seriously, it gets earlier and earlier every year. But we as teams will know little or nothing until next January. Sure, it's fun to speculate. But to do that while well over a third of the teams still have at least one event left is just a little premature...

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I disagree with your assessments here and I'll answer each of your reasons:
1> Safety -- Just because the driver(s) cannot directly see does not mean that they cannot get information about the robots. Camera feedback and human players (looking around the curtain ... lets call them spotters) could easily give feedback to the drivers.

2> Spectators/crowds -- In most arenas the crowd sees from the side of the field, so you would lose less than 10% seating visibility. What if the team did not put a camera on? Or like 1178's (my team) bot, where due to unforeseen circumstances (the kick system jarring a damaged power cable) where in the middle of a match, a team might lose camera, and not get it back?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Anyone else think the game object won't be a perfect sphere? I say this for 3 reasons.
1) In recent years the games tend to rotate between ball, not a ball. Assuming orbit balls are not considered perfect "spheres"
2)No student team member has worked with anything other then a round object. 08 track ball 09 orbit ball and 10 soccer ball.
3) The FTC and FRC games usually have some similarities and their not using balls/spheres

FYI: I know 1 and 2 contradict a little bit, but u can see where I'm coming from.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Multi-level arena
I know this would be difficult, but hear me out. Not a full, two story arena, but an arena with ramps to a raised platform in the center, with rails to keep robots from falling off. Also, less strict rules on violence. We put bumpers on, so let us slam into other robots.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Then that team would have to adapt and overcome. Possibly using spotters ... or getting assistance from their alliance partners?


The greatest successes come from the greatest adversities.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Going of the idea of multiple levels, and the pattern of having to do with historical dates...
In 1911 the Erector Set was invented by AC Gilbert...

Not sure how relevant this information is, I am probably just forcing things to fit the pattern.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

The future game would be hovercraft gmae. I like that idea!

Notable achievements in 1911 that may set the theme for the game:
 

The South Pole is reached for the first time.
The Rutherford model of the atom is created.
Superconductivity is discovered (=hovercrafts?).
An aircraft lands on a ship for the first times.
The neon lamp is developed.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

It is never too early!

The GDC released a new gate this year maybe they planned to incorporate this in the next game design as well. This gate allowed for the field to be divided into 3 sections via ramps. next year they may be divided by walls, stairs, other... It is my opinion that this change was made for more than just one game and perhaps they were planning ahead.

How challenging would getting over a 12 inch high wall be?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Regarding the erector set, I can see the idea that you need to be able to manipulate pieces into some set of some sort. I also have come upon that in 1961, the first manned flight happened. Now I know we just got off Lunacy, so it might not happen. What ever this years game might be, it seems like it be very interesting if it has a historic background.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

My response: don't go around, go through! ::ouch:: :ahh:

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I think an articulating chassis is the way to go in this case. Just worm over the wall.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

ramp bots that drive up on each other to get over and hopefully they wont tip when dropping off the other side.

But that isn't the point I was getting at. What do you guys think about if the gate will be used again and how?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I really would like to see either a flying game, a water game, or a game with small game objects, such as bouncy balls fired at high speeds.:D

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Oh geez we're modeling neutrinoes.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

With Carpet
and it's going to be some type of integration between baseball and football

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

There are a lot of historical dates that they could use to pull from but then again it could be something completely random. Kind of hard to tell. Can't wait 'till the first clue though.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Robot rugby?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

even though Bill said that FIRST is going to hold off on the 20th anniversary celebration I still see the GDC bringing back different aspects from past years. Maybe the low friction surface from Lunacy, bumps from Breakaway, big balls from over drive....it would be kind of like what Survivor did a few years ago with Survivor All-Star's

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I want me some MAIZE CRAZE

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

maize craze with tennis balls!!!

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

If the FTC(and/or FLL) game(s) of the year hint at the next FRC Game, then I can predict an increased importance of autonomy.

FTC:
40 Second Autonomous mode(v. 30 of previous years)

FLL:
The Bad Cell destruction is a mission that requires the light sensor in order to be consistently successful.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Thats good cause I don't need to worry about the length of the autonomous mode

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I think that if autonomous is more important, then you DEFINITELY need to worry about the length.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Well you obviously do not know my goal for this year, full automation even during the teleop mode.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

To quote one of our FTC mentors, "A fifteen second autonomous mode is nothing!"

With a longer Autonomous mode, there could possibly be more than one scoring method.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I doubt that they will bring back old elements, since it would represent a huge advantage to teams who played in those events, as opposed to teams who joined FIRST at a later stage. Even teams with less seniors to sophmores percentage would be at a disbalance.

I would love to see a game involving light in some manner, possibly using laser as a scoring mechanism.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

i'd like to see something with 3 or fewer scoring objects or a bunch of objects with 1 or 2 valuable ones, this way you could actually keep track of things and get excited for rarer scores, an example: you get much more excited about a touchdown in football than you do a 3-pointer in basketball

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

When does Bill give out the first game hints usually?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

The official game hint does not come out until December.

Anything you may or may not think is a hint from either Dave or Bill could come at any time, including in previous years.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Oh? Really? Is there some documentation or policy statement that says that is the case?

I'm just sayin'....



.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Tradition is almost a policy in itself...

Admittedly, last year's tradition is this year's rule change!

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

No, but as Eric said, it seems to be a tradition.

However, I will not complain at all if I wake up on Thanksgiving and find a game hint and a thread about it. Who doesn't want Christmas (or your choice of winter holiday) to come early?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

If we ask really nicely can we get it pushed back until New Year's Eve since we will all be staying up late that night anyway? What if we bribed you with cookies?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Dave was also kind enough to drop us a 'hint' in the Universal Gripper thread.
Which I assume means we're all either picking up little circular (R) pieces or dressing like Nittany Lions. ;)

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I'm going to laugh when the game piece is literally tennis balls and people go way off with the brand name or shape of the picture.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I wouldn't be surprised if the game involved a see-saw or multiple see-saws in some way.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I bet krispy kremes would work a lot better.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

A few of the kids on our team and I were discussing the possible game pieces and we came up with two very interesting ones:

A safety cone: It has many different angles and would provide a very interesting challenge for all of the teams to lift/move

A 50 Gallon Barell: Another large game piece that would provide a difficult challenge considering it is not spherical

Both of these pieces would be interesting, and I would love to see them in action!

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Still waiting for stair climbing to be part of the game.
Bruce

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

For someone with a rookie year of 2004, you seem to have forgotten that 2004 had stairs... 3*2", or 1*6", with an extra 6" step on top of that for extra height. Some teams did in fact use the 2" stairs, while many did the 6" ones.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

ROBOT RELAY RACE!!!! completing different missions....crap that's too much like FLL..

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

^ i wont say that's a bad idea...maybe frc could borrow concepts from its younger sibings

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I think its way more fun to watch the frc games that score like sports, as apposed to watching a robot do missions (no offense to FLL I'm mentoring one of those). I just think that there needs to be more scoring in the games, Lunacy's big moon rocks dumps were really exciting as opposed to scoring 1 point at a time in Breakaway.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

While I agree games like you described are probably the gems of the games FIRST has had, even though Breakaway was low scoring it was still had high energy. With the use of defense and Robots often in almost "mini wrestling matches" it was probably one of the best games I've seen since I first started watching FRC games years ago.

My $0.02

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

We have been talking on our team and we think its gonna deal more with the camera and recognizing colors and doing something with those colors

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Lunacy was honestly really, really boring compared to Breakaway. In Lunacy, scores were rarely close enough for a single action to sway the game, and you couldn't tell if that action was important enough anyway. Breakaway very naturally grew in excitement as the match progressed, starting with a strong autonomous mode and building up to the end game final scores or hangs.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

so possibly there is a pattern. We have did so many professional sports. I suppose the next one will be similar to hockey, football, or maybe even golf. however this game will be complex with a zillion features

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Its going to be related to tennis

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Tennis (or for that matter, any sport tracking a fast moving object) could be quite difficult (and fun :D )

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

according to The Home Depot customer order system, you can expect a few traffic cones, 3/4" 45degree PVC elbows and one string of LED christmas lights being delivered to 200 bedford street sometime soon.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Why?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Back in 2006, the same Home Depot order system showed an order for quite a few mailboxes at about this time, going to the same place. No mailboxes in the game yet.

I believe that said order system has a name:

Big Mike the Bearhugger--or is that Big Mike, AKA, Winnie the Pooh?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

The left over part and the bacon stick out the most to me.
bacon, pig, pig skin= football for a game piece and in 1995 the FRC game was ramp and roll which used a field goal as a scoring place which could be referring to the LEFTOVERS. 2011 also brings to us the 45 super bowl which is the most watched sporting event in the USA so this ties in to the spectator friendly atmosphere that FIRST has been trying to get at for a few years.

Maybe FIRST is using LEFTOVER game elements or ideas from other levels of their competitions like imagine something from FLL being made into a FRC game element or the atlas ball from FTC being brought back to make and appearance in the realm of FRC

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I don't know if anyone's made the connection yet, but the title of Bill's latest blog post is "My staff bought me a blue cake." The color of the cake isn't mentioned again.

Now, isn't one of Penn State's colors blue?

(all emphasis mine)

Maybe someone can make something out of this (I sure can't), but I just thought I'd throw that out there..

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Ok, I'm going to be that guy... I just can't resist.

Blue... Water Game!

But seriously, I think that either footballs or "weight" type game pieces with two tennis balls connected via pvc would be really cool. Both tricky to handle and having nothing to do with water.

Don't ask me why, I just have intuition.;)

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

What he's throwing out there are some crumbs. Blue ones.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

"Oh, and as of late last night, we have a game name for 2011! With any luck, we’ll have a game logo by Friday. Let the game hints begin."

This makes me think hes gunna give us hints about the game name

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Maybe he has already released the hint and we haven't found it yet.::rtm::

Begin? Friday? Late?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

.....................................

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

^reported

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

A good point was brought up by Jared341 in the latest BB post about checking out the game manual. He noticed that the coopertition award was in affect yet again for 2011. This award is defined as...

In Breakaway, I believe coopertition points were awarded from assists towards getting goals. Now let's all think, what else can assists be used to in regards to games.

Think out side the box instead of games like soccer or basketball...

::rtm::

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Uhhh... What?

Coopertition points were given in the coopertition bonus, which was given to the winning team according to the formula CB=2*Losing alliance's unpenalized score.

That's not from "assists towards goals", unless you're thinking of scoring for your opponent (which was legal but risky).

I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see a similar Coopertition Bonus next year; it sure seemed to go over better than 2009's G14... And it has just about nothing to do with the game scoring (other than discouraging blowouts).

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Uber fail on my part haha. I actually never truly understood the coopertition bonus in the first place but I always believed that it was from assists.

:yikes:

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

The Coopertition Bonus was terrible in my opinion. Not because it encouraged scoring for the other team, but because scoring Coopertition Points was literally the least helpful move a team could make for the other team. In terms of effect on standings, it was actually the most competitive, greediest move. Each score got you 2 and the opponents 0, instead of 1 and 1 for your own goal score. In effect, the winner of the CB was the least coopetive team!

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Which leads us back to 6v0 as the best way to help the 6 teams involved in the match. Any chance the game will be designed to work best as 6v0?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Very low. Remember that the GDC amended the game last year to discourage that strategy. Chances are they looked to solve that problem with this year's challenge.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Either that or they will realize it and be relieved because the feeling that something unknown was overlooked passed and frustrated due to the oversight.

I've had something similar happen to me before. Before I left on a camping trip I was running around trying to figure out why I felt that I was forgetting something. I found out afterwards that it was my underwear::ouch:: . Its a good thing I was only staying for one night.

It's better to forget one's underwear when in the woods than one's safety glasses when in the shop.::safety::

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

It will be interesting to see what they do. The coopertition bonus tends to move the qualifying rounds toward high offense. The teams that wanted to showcase their defensive skills generally didn't make the playoffs since their seeding scores were low - but defense was important in the playoffs. My thought was that since the qualifying rounds and playoffs played differently anyway (offense vs defense) maybe the GDC will design a game with this in mind.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Maybe they could add an additional type of match aimed at showing off what the robots can do, at the expense of fewer qualification matches.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

The whole "two kinds of match" thing sounds interesting - the same game with two alternating sets of "extra" rules would really make it challenging!

I can just imagine it: "OK, this match will have walls A B and C up, and walls D E and F removed. Please wait 10 minutes for a field reset."

Actually, just thinking of that...labyrinth? It'd be awesome!

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I really like the idea of a somewhat changing setup. Yes it could delay reset times substantivity, but if FIRST could find a way to do it fast then I'd be all for it, gives an excellent new challenge as well as forcing robots to use more sensors, epically during Autonomous!

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I want to see a bigger match up, like 6v6 or 12v12. I think 3v3 is too small. The 3v3 forces individual teams to "fend for themselves". They would have to form alliances, but that alliance ends after the round and chances are you will be put against that team. I personally do not like the competition "model" (I do not know what I shall call it). I think alliances should be made even before the kickoff and have the games be more in depth. So the same alliances are stuck together throughout the competition. So the teams then can make specialized robots while cooperating as a bigger team. So that calls for bigger and deeper games. Now I think that would make things a lot more "fair". Alliances can be set up depending on socioeconomic backgrounds and the amount of experience the teams have. Chances are the veteran teams in richer areas will end up having a better robot.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I disagree. I feel that, by constantly switching who you're working with, you learn to adapt your strategies to work with others AND to prevent someone who knows your past strategies from using them to stop you.
Also, that would severely limit teams like mine, who go to different competitions every year. Every team in this meta-alliance would have to go to all the same regionals.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

You know, David, back in the day (before my time even), alliances were kept secret until 2 minutes or so before each match. FIRST event people knew, but teams just knew that teams W, X, Y, and Z needed to be at the field at time A. How about we go back to that? Oh, and there were only 2-team alliances, if you were wondering.

A year or so later, they went to the format we know and love today. Something about 2 minutes not being enough, or some such triviality.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I disagree entirely. Looking 7 miles from my own home, there are quite a few Detroit teams who are doing great, and Detroit as a whole is not in the greatest financial situation. While money can create fancy-looking robots, it does not always create game-winning ideas.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

I said "better robot" not "winning robot" on purpose. I totally understand but you have to see that richer schools have access to better opportunities. It might be the difference between a CNC machine and hand drill. Not saying that you can not produce the same work, but you really can't deny that the CNC machine is a lot more "convenient" than hand drilling everything. Now that itself won't give you a winning robot, but the more prototypes you can pump out, the more practice your team can get. The more money you have, the better and more hardware you can buy.

Just my observation. The richer teams tend to have better robots. Now "better" is subjective, but you get the jist of it.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

A winning robot is the better robot, no matter how it was made or how much it cost.

I wouldn't say the "richer" teams have better robots, mainly because that relies on assuming that certain teams are richer.... and the teams people assume are "richer" are the ones with better robots. Circular logic. I've seen teams with $50,000 budgets miss eliminations at regionals and I've seen teams with $10,000 budgets win it all.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

While it's clear teams with more resources have better chances of excelling in any given year, and I think Kara acknowledges that, I don't think differences in budget necessarily best indicates a team with greater potential for building a better robot. If anything, I'd bet the number of mentors is much more important.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

What if you had an offensive-defensive role? In autonomous, both teams try to score or capture scoring devices. Whoever leads after autonomous becomes offensive for the rest of the match, whoever lags after auto becomes defensive for the rest of the match. Offender gets number of points scored, Defender gets number of points Offender attempted but failed to score (Offender got the scoring device from the human player or other non-defender accessible way, but failed to score it). During auto, only offensive points are counted for the purposes of determining who leads after auto. Multipliers for both teams would be nice, in the form of doing some extra action to get bonuses.

What if there was a bridge, like 2001? Offenders acquire and fill the goals, that is enough to get points. The robot has to actually load the goal, not the HP. If the offender balances the goal(s) on the bridge (with or without them also on it) they get a multiplier. If the defender balances on the bridge, they get a bonus. (due to the nature of bridge-balancing, it would be very hard to balance if a defender is also on and driving around, wrecking havok to the cg of the bridge. This would require a defensive offender, who's purpose is to out-defend the defensive robots (keep them off the bridge while the main robot balances it). The act of balancing an empty goal is OK too, if you are unable to manipulate game pieces, but gets you fewer points.

The issue comes when neither team does anything in auto, or both teams are equal in score.

I think this means that the game includes a movable trailer, and they included a device to latch onto the trailer for us. Probably a simple passive device (gate latch?) which can be used with its faults, improved upon, or redesigned from scratch.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Coin flip on the screen (like the ball randomizer in 2008).

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Neat idea. I like the idea of a changable labyrinth.

To make a field reset faster for a changing labyrinth, they could require smaller bots and a half sized field. This would allow the traditional field to be split into two fields. Set up one side while the other side is being played on. Just a thought. Remember, the size of the bot can be changed with a change of the rules. :D

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Maybe we all are over looking the cake part of bills blog post. Could hint towards game piece shape ( general thoughts of cake shapes are square/rectangle ) or even multiple phases of the game ( like multilayer cake or multiple tier cakes ). Or even different parts of the game and how they're different but yet all important. With cakes you have the your cake (obviously) base frosting, border, and secondary decorations.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Maybe, going off of Dominator's ideas, different robots in each alliance have different tasks?

(I'm like Nostradamus: I keep guessing in hopes that something's somewhat right.)

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

maybe blue cake is just what the surface of the field is made out of

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Idk, but it seems we're due for another shape... Before we had the tetras and recently we've had the balls so...?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

...Squares time?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

You know what hasn't been done really (at least recently) pentagon, hexagon, octagon etc. shapes....

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Balls and Tetrahedrals combined???? Spikey balls? Rounded tetrahedrals?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Although not written in stone (or aluminum), the game pieces tend to be variations of the FIRST logo shapes, triangle, square, and circle. If they are going to deviate from this, I vote for footballs. Punt, pass, and kick anyone?

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

One word.

...

Frisbees.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

tackle, touch, or flag?

i like labyrinth, or a robotic sumo match would be cool
that might end badly, like concussion badly

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Crap. Now all I can think about is "You remind me of the bot. What bot? The bot with the power. What power? The power of YouTube. Who do? You do. Do what? Remind me of the bot."

I don't think the pattern's really held in the last four years. Three ball games and tubes. Circles, all.

(I also hope Dean doesn't actually give away part of the game before the actual Game animation, like he did this year.)

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Yes:D! but made out of foam::safety::

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Our team is actually making our practice bot into a frisbee catcher so that we can work on learning to use the cameras and such.

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Yess!!! Halfway through the speaches we could all tell it was soccer based. I think we all say we want to know the game ahead of time, but haveing gotten this close to knowing, don't ruin it for me until the animation!!!!!

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Well, Bill mentioned Pennsylvania in his newest blog post, titled "The view from 30,000 feet"

My newest guess is that it will involve dropping tennis balls into something. I don't know what Pennsylvania has to do with it, but it is called "the keystone state," which makes me wonder...

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Taking a slightly different approach to the blog, I'm running off of the title "The view from 30,000 feet". According to wikipedia, mount everest has a max elevation of 29,029 ft. Looking for links between Pennsylvania and everest, the only thing I can turn up is a University of Pennsylvania leadership trek to the mountains that has gone to everest from 1998-2001 and 2003. What does this mean? I have no idea

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

That seems like a great idea, however the cameras don't seem to be up to speed yet (ours sent back approx. 1 frame per 10 sec. of time...:()

Re: anyone have any ideas about next years game?
 

Were you trying image processing? On ours once the graphs were removed from the dashboard the camera was at a perfectly acceptable speed