Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

I wanted to get a feel for how many teams use Laptops for scouting.

This has happened to us before, but it came up this last weekend in Boston. We were told on Saturday that we were NOT allowed to use arena power to run our scouting anywhere in the stands. They were gracious about it (Thursday we were on a table, and they told us that was ok Thurs, but said they would need that area for VIPs so we could use power in the stands on Friday, Friday we ran all day from seats just below the power drop).

However, it was sad, especially because we had so many students that really like scouting this year, and they are happy to be a part of providing the team data, they feel involved & helpful. Since we hadn't planned for it, we didn't have a paper method available.

There used to be a rule in the events section that said "no power cords" can be run in the stands. This year it just talks about scouting, but no real regulations surrounding it. We understand that different venue's have different rules, but I would like to gather some data and write a letter to FIRST suggesting they implement something like Mikell's suggestion, putting in the rulebook that teams can work with the event, and/or FIRST can ask all of the events to arrange for a "scouting section". Or at least have it in the event documents.

So if you could, take a minute to reply to the poll and reply to the thread with which Regionals you have/haven't had problems with getting power.

For us I know:
Finger Lakes - allowed to use power, as long as cords are run into the stands.
Boston - not allowed to use power "technically" though were able to Thurs/Fri.
Chesapeake (old venue) - limited area semi-far from field had power available

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Like you said it is almost completely dependent on the facility and where you are therein. At some regionals there are outlets in the stands and in others there aren't.

Our team runs scouting by having several scouts gather data on paper. The paper is then given to one person on a laptop. The person with the laptop enters the data into a spred sheet and we do what we wish with it.

With this setup we are able to run the laptop on its battery and then when we need to charge it we have a power inverter with one of our practice robot batteries.

This is a way to cope with a lack of power but a designated area for scouting with power would be a fantastic idea.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Our team has had no issues with power at GSR for the one laptop we use to compile data from paper scouting. We experimented with a bunch of netbooks at GSR and used our traditional paper scouting because the netbook program wasn't done and was only being tested at GSR to compile data. For NCR and Atlanta we are planning to switch to full laptop scouting with paper ready as a backup. What is harder for us is that our laptops have no batteries and need power (but they were inexpensive without a battery)! :)

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

We use laptops for compiling the final scouting data of the day.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

We use a hybrid paper/laptop system - everything is entered on paper, then copied from there into a scouting program. We'd like to get away from paper entirely, but don't have 6 laptops to use for input (we find that one person per robot is needed, maybe more depending on the game, to get good data).

We haven't had a problem with this system in Kansas City, St. Louis, or 10000 Lakes. The laptop we use can last almost a full day on battery power, which helps in the stands as we usually can't find outlets. But we can set up in the halls behind the stands (usually 1+ laptops out there, plus a printer) without a problem.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Our got a ton of these on ebay and sorted out ones that had issues and the ones left over work great for the individual scouts and the compiler machine is a bit more advanced! And they are very low costing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/COMPAQ-ARMADA-M3...#ht_500wt_1182

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

In the past we have asked the venues ahead of time if we would have access to power in the stands, under the impression that it is better to know for sure than be told we cannot without a backup plan. I believe none of the events (Wisconsin, Midwest, and Atlanta) said we would for sure have access to power. Some said no, citing that extension cords running to the stands are not safe. It is always frustrating to see teams still do this...

This year and back in 2007 and 2008 we have scouted on paper and then input all the data into a single laptop.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

We use a single laptop, powered by an inverter run off of old robot batteries.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

1676 uses 6 laptops for scouting (one scout to a team, each with a laptop) that are hardwired (no wi-fi :( ) to a router.That in turn is connected to the central "admin" computer, where someone double-checks basic information (who won, who lost, score, etc... - it's crazy just how often scouts mess up the simple stuff) and ensures each scout has submitten their record.

Scouts input data into a web page (coded in PHP) local to the server computer, and each record is submitted to the central database (which can print out the records for up to 3 teams on one form - perfect for gathering alliance data). These sheets can be printed out on the printer we have with us.

Additionally, this year we used a 900 MHz transmitter to send the data between the stands and the pits (no, it doesn't violate any rules, that's why we chose it - it's really useful when a team sponsor's company sets up wireless networks :D ) so that we could access the database on the computer and monitor down there.

It's definitely quite an elaborate setup - we do require power cords in the stands, and have never had problems setting them up at regionals we've attended (NJ '07-'10, Palmetto in '06 and '09, Buckeye in '07, GTR in '08, VCU in '10, and Champs '07-'10). We're always very careful about taping the cords down to the corners of the wall & floor so no one trips on them, and only use one of the arena outlets. At least at NJ, I can attest that we're not the only ones using this setup - multiple other teams have scouting desks in the stands.

[shameless plug] If anyone is interested in using our intraweb scouting system (it can be run with just one laptop - the admin comp woud just input whatever was written down onto paper sheets by the scouts), PM me and I'll help work with the team to get you set up with it. [/shameless plug]

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Our teams scouts for the longest time have done everything by hand on paper. This year they wanted to give their hand in the laptop program for scouting. They picked it up for about fifteen minutes and said they did not like it and went right back to the good old paper and pencil method. I could understand them completely. That's what I would do. :)

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Ditto that. One of our events wouldn't let us use power because it was "unsafe." I wonder what they would have thought of the old 12v and inverter. ;)

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Haha we feel exactly the opposite. The first year one of our mentors developed this beautiful labview frontend that fed into a database. Once we realized that we could so easily manipulate the data in a database we were hooked. It made pre-match strategy and alliance selection analysis soooo much simpler. Plus the students love computers, so it was an outlet that let them use computers. If we made them use an excel sheet or something I'm sure it wouldn't be the same.

We like 1676 use 6 laptops and a master (though our master is for data collection & analysis only - for getting data for our pre-match strategy sheets)

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

What we had planned to do is have 6 laptops connected to a server. At Boilermaker, we somewhat cheated because we had access to Purdue Airlink, and therefore could go through the internet without technically breaking any rules (we did not establish any networks, but rather accessed an existing one). We did not get power there as power is not allowed on the bleachers (fortunately, three people on the team have laptops with identical batteries).

At Buckeye, we were able to run power which was taped down to prevent tripping. We ran a server and three laptops as well as a camera.

At the Championship, I am not planning on having power although it would certainly be welcome (often the outlets are hard to come by). In addition, because of the limited number of people that we are taking, the system we used in the previous competitions is not viable. What will likely happen is just text comments being entered onto a computer for sorting purposes (and battery switching or use of an inverter).

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

My team is using a Wii with their laptops for scouting this year.
I heard the kids love it.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

We use the scouting system developed by 842 in the stands. The Wii motes are preferred over paper by all of our scouts. Unfortunately, during the course of the WPI regional our laptop battery ran out quite a few times, however we just bought an inverter to prevent this.

I know that team 20 developed an iPhone/iTouch app to scout and the data is transfered to a master computer at some point using a standard USB iPod cord. That is by far the coolest system I have seen so far. I also know that 1726 writes a program for the Nintendo DS that is also very effective in collecting data.

I find the best method is a method your scouts find painless and is easily assembled based on your budget and willingness to develop a system for you. Personally 842's system is simple and reliable, so thanks to you guys. I am interested in knowing how to get data straight to the pits.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

USB key and a runner! Why mess with success anyway? :rolleyes:

1714's used paper in the stands during my time on the team for this very reason. Data entry gets tedious, but it gets done.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

That's not what I meant, I was looking for more specifics into 1676's router to connect to the stands. Sorry for the confusion.


Edit: Post 47: Chief Delphi

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

For the Palmetto regional 1261 and us (skeleton crews working together) teamed up for scouting, and used five laptops in the stands. There was an outlet nearby so we taped down an extension cord and had a power strip on that.

We also each had laptops in our pits for access to the scouting info.

We used Google Docs to share all of our information/sheets (Clemson had free guest wifi) though we also had the backup plan of connecting all the copmuters together with ethernet cables.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

So if I understand it right, you're asking about how we get information around. I'm not sure exactly what part you're asking about, though, so I'll just go over it all.

6 laptops are connected via ethernet to a router, which connects to one central server computer (the admin computer). Also connected to this router is a 900 MHz (if I remember correctly - the point is that it's not in the spectrum used by WiFi and therefore legal under FIRST rules) 2-way transmitter. One transmitter is on a tower by our scouting table and is pointed towards the pits, where there is an identical transmitter (obviously these are dual receiver-transmitters, I'm just calling them transmitters) connected to another laptop hidden in our pit display. This laptop is connected to an external monitor and mouse on the outside of our pit display tower which we (and other teams) can use to access the database.

Addendum: in Atlanta, we obviously had to modify this system a bit. In years past, we've just had to resort to runners for going in between the pits; however, in 2009, an old team sponsor (KPMG) donated a couple of Sprint AirCards to us for the weekend - the admin computer in the stands put the data on our team website via one aircard, where it was accessed by the pit computer on the other aircard.

Hope this helps - let me know if you're still confused.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

At Palmetto, we (1261 & 1379) developed a system via google docs for scouting.

At the events we attend, harder than finding power is finding internet. The google docs system would only work at Palmetto (out of all of the regionals we attend).

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

No we don't use laptops for scouting. We tried to do that last year and failed miserably. This year we had seperate sheets for each robot at the KC regional, which didn't go so well because we had lost a good ammount in the stands. So at OK we used six clip boards with about 10-15 teams for each board. This went better because we were less likely to lose them. It also helped establish a scouting system so we would have six scouters at all times.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

At the Autodesk Oregon regional I believe there was a designated scouting area in the stands with access to power, however we never used it.
Our team is pretty small so we had rather an unusual scouting system:
scouting captain (me) with MacBook, and usually only one other scout, with paper and pencil.
I was able to keep my battery going the whole day, with only a charge-up at the pit during lunch.


[And for people wondering how two scouts managed to do the Autodesk regional, with 60+ teams.... At competition my job is to know each and every robot. Every piece of data flows through my laptop, and I take scouting very seriously: I consider that if the team captain wants to know about a team, I need to have a ready flow of memorized info....plus it impresses the team captain ;) This really wouldn't be possible unless you have a team member who is willing to watch every match and stay up til the wee hours of the morning compiling data.... :D ]

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Our team used paper scouting sheets and then compiled them on one computer at KC and are going to be testing out the wii scouting program in 10000 lakes. We plan to use two old robot battery's wired in parallel contained with in a wood box to keep the battery's together. Then useing a power inverter we can power two laptops for about three hours. This also allows us charge this battery on KOP chargers.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Looks like we might try Nintendo DS scouting again at the Vegas regional....the batteries in a DS last longer than those in most laptops.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Our team heavily bases their scouting on the use of laptops. We take all paper scouting we do and enter it into a laptop, and from there we can get customized scouting sheets for our drive team, telling them about each robot's average contribution, balls moved, elevation rate, how they can elevate, and even the percentage of times their human player drops balls. We use other laptops for notes, taking videos from the stands to the pits to show our team, and one for general purposes for our team (ex: printing off schedules, getting agendas, whatever documents our team will need over the course of the weekend).

We've attended Kettering, Ann Arbor, and the MSC, and we've had no problems getting power at any of these. We set up our scouting area in a place close to outlets (wether or not we can see the field), and run a power strip out to plug everything in. At Kettering (the field house), we set up behind the stands, at Ann Arbor (Skyline High School) we set up on the track, and at the MSC, we set up in a handicap section overlooking the side of the field and the pits, and also had no problems getting power.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Last year, we used the 6-laptops-into-a-server method. Setup was tedious, and we had trouble getting power at BMR due to insurance issues with the bleachers.

This year, we switched back to paper for scouting and just used two laptops for data entry and data compiling. It has been much smoother this year, and there is less liability if a student was to damage another team member's personal laptop.

Someday, we may try one of the many other methods mentioned on these forums (DS, TI-83/84, Wiimote, etc).

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

The Wiimote system worked really well at CT for us. That combined with good subjective notes from smart people allowed us to make a good list. Not quite perfect, but we got good data on Friday.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

We use the lap tops after Friday's match at dinner. For scouting, we use 6 Nintendo DS's, with custom scouting programs.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

In NJ no problem. In CT part way through Thurs we were told we can't plug in because of union rules. We would need to pay big bucks for an electrician to tell us how to plug our printer in. At the suggestion of a large man with a long FIRST history we asked the NASA machine shop guys if we could make our service public and plug in to their outlet in the pit. We moved operations and used runners to bring data from the field.

We do paper scouting on index cards printed with a scouting form. To simplify data entry, the subjective data is designed to be completely numerical so that the input involves entering a string of about 15 numbers. 6 people watch one robot each in every match. A seventh person watches for the scores and penalties while the other 6 are finishing out their match cards. the number string includes the team number, match number, and starting position, as well as rankings in a number of areas and number of balls scored.

These cards all go into sleeves in a binder (one for each team). and the sleeves for the five other teams in our matches are delivered to the drive team before each match.

We also scout the pit for robot systems specific info with a similar system, inputing the data the same way, and print it out on an index card which also goes in the binder sleeve. You can't believe what teams tell you they can do. you have to see it on the field. You can only collect data in the pit about what type of drive system, kicker, hook, etc.

Finally a photo of each robot goes in it's respective sleeve.

The data is entered into a massive excel spreadsheet as the cards are turned in, and we are able to generate a variety of summary reports that we can use for selecting partners or preparing for matches.

The sleeve system has been in development since 2004 when My son and I were the entire strategy team when we won our way to Atlanta. We added the numerical data entry and laptop to compile the data the following year, along with a lot more people. We have been refining and tweaking ever since. It keeps lots of people occupied doing something very important for the team, and has helped the drive teams greatly in preparing for matches.
:cool:

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

For my own sanity, I would reeeeaaally like to use laptops, but we've never been able to make it work. We don't have team funds for computers (we've got one team computer that is on the verge of death currently) and we barely have enough people to get by with paper. Also, none of us are particularly computer-inclined, except our drivers/programmers who have enough to do already, so I have no idea how we'd get a compilation/relay system set up.

So, for now, we have one sheet per team in a fold-out organizer, and a excel keyworded sheet with basic pit scouting and impressions, and keep the matches on paper. My job, as head of scouting, is to make sure that the right sheets get out during the right match, and that they get to the drive team on time. At Atlanta this is remarkably simple- drive team walks to the base of the wall, and we hand the sheets down from the stands. They can then look at them during their wait. It's really low-tech but worked pretty well for us at SVR this year, and Atlanta last year. Before that, we had a binder.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Our team used to use laptops for everything when it came to scouting. I overhauled the system making sure that it was all paper with as many comments as possible and only the necessary data.

Robots are inconsistent and to develop good match strategies and make good selections during alliance selections you need to understand each robots capabilities and potential and their average score is often irrelevant for how they will play with or against you.

There is only so much a computer can do, strategy takes critical thinking and statistics can only help you so much. With how much time and effort imputing data takes it becomes more of a hurt then a help especially when you are limited in man power for scouting.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

We use a DS scouting system based off team 100's. (which i think was based off another team?)

This data gets uploaded to one laptop which we then use Friday night to analyze who we'll want to pick in the finals. It even displays a picture of the robot you're scouting based off pictures taken Thursday. Very convenient, and handled completely by the students. They've gotten a really good handle of it.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Last year was hell. We brought I believe 8 laptops from our tech-ed department. We have a UPS (uninteruptable power supply) which is two car batteries and an inverter to keep them charged. The problem was that the laptop's batteries could barely hold a charge. That and the fact that we could only keep three laptops plugged in at a time to prevent drawing too much power through the inverter. It was a lesson we won't soon forget.

This year, we did a paper-based system, but with a quirk. We had a scanner that could read the forms (they were sort of like Scantrons with bubbles) that would constantly scan forms while people were scouting. It was a lot simpler (and cooler :D ) than last year!

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

We fall into the "old-fashioned" category of paper and pencil. Generally, the team creates a paper scouting sheet that then gets used by any scout.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

I know I previously stated that we do not use laptops for scouting and do it the old fashioned way. I looking into creating a database in either Access or oracle which would be pretty cool. Any thoughts on this? Thanks for any advice in advance.

Cass

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

What would you want to do with it? Do you want an application to access it? If not, an Excel workbook works great. Especially for calculations.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Was that by any chance you guys at the CT Regional with the Wii Remotes in the stands? Every time I was walking by on my way to the pits I was always wondering what that was all about.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

That was us. We found it easier to keep ourselves interested and it allowed us to scout without looking down at a sheet of paper. We probably should have collected more data Friday, but we loved the system.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

You guys looked like you were having fun. If the scouting team doesnt mind, I may just have to work on a system like that, or one with the multiple laptops instead of our paper into 1 laptop method we have now.

If anyone can point me into some directions to get started, please do.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Our very good friends on 842 developed the system and released it to the public. http://www.nventivity.com/scout2.htm

I would highly recommend purchasing an AM Inverter and using an old robot battery. This kept our laptop running all of Friday without breaks.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Until this year we've used paper sheets to record information, which was then manually entered into an Excel spreadsheet or (last year) an Access database - talk about cumbersome!

This year, we trialed a custom application and database developed by one of our mentors, aimed at the netbook screen resolution, with the notion being that, because of their lower power consumption, running 6-7 at once (I think the typical load for these was 10-12W each?) on a little sub-100W Enercell inverter and old robot batteries would get us through a day of scouting in the event that power was not available.

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Team 1629 uses itouches to do our scouting if a wireless network is available. If no wifi is available we use a smart phone as a modem and enter the data on a notebook. We do however need to have an Internet connection as we use a goggle docs spreadsheet. For each event we create a form that scouts enter data on and submit electronically after each match. This form the populates the spreadsheet in real-time. We then use a second sheet to summarize the data. The best part about this system is that its gives the drive team real-time stats and information right after a match was played. It also viewable on any web enabled device which means our drives can get it on their iphones on the field. And its all free (thats the best part... goggle is awesome.)

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

When you've got Ben Pulver doing your scouting, you don't *need* laptops... Ben power is all the power you need!

(What oh what shall we do when he graduates in 2013?!?)

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

you get Ben Pulver to train a pupil thats what :P

Here we use paper & pen

Though i write notes everywhere on my scouting sheets xD

Re: Does your team use Laptops for Scouting?
 

Team 639 uses about 2 laptops, and that is what we did at FLR. We also use paper, then transfer it to the laptops. However, at Philly, we couldn't find any power outlets, and were not allowed to use the ones behind the stands. Our scouting team moved to an outlet in the hallway to charge laptops, and hang out. We had quite alot of laptops on a charge/use/charge pattern for the day. I do recall that our webteam was fiddling with our database for quite alot of the time though :P