A Cinderella story?
 

Has it ever happened that a top seed at a regional used (some might say wasted) their picks to give 2 deserving (but not great performing) rookie teams a shot at Atlanta?
If so, did Cinderella get to go to the ball?

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

That stuff happens all the time... As far as I know, the only times our team went into the regional finals was when we were like 48th place... but didnt get picked at like 13th place (A couple years ago)

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

I couldn't be happier to hear that such generosity might actually be common.
I would have thought rather rare.
But your team never went to the championships as a result?

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

Yea, but next year:yikes: Its going to be different ;)

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

I think there is a communication break-down. The OP is talking about situations where teams picked teams that may not have had the best robot, so those teams could qualify for Atlanta. The first poster is talking about situations where teams picked the best robots, who happen to have ranked poorly. (Most teams will tell you that ranking has nothing to do with who they pick)

I can't think of any situation where a team would not select teams that they feel gives them the best chance of winning the event.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

It was the 2008 Los Angeles Regional. As the selections would have it, 330 and 1717 teamed up. 589, 207, and 1538 (not sure of captain) ran up against them in the quarters. Note that 330 was undefeated at Los Angeles that year.

David, 589 also made eliminations in 2006, with 294 and 362. They lost in a 3-match quarterfinal. Next year, we'll see what happens--I think you're already in next year in terms of experimentation and improvement...

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

I think it would be an insult to the teams selected to make pity picks, really. My opinion might change if there lacked open registration to the Championship.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

You are correct I think.
I didn't really get that the first reply didn't get what I was asking.

Sadly, that's what I figured.
But what if the team already had a ticket to championships and little left to prove other than proving they could be bigger than the event itself?

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

You know that sometimes rookies make great robots and great teams. You should look at what comes out of the two Minnesota regionals. They know how to grow rookies up there, they come to play.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

I'm going to talk about teams in general, rather than "rookie teams". As Al correctly points out... some rookies are pretty awesome.

The premise of the alliance selection process is that the top eight teams will scout out the top performing robots from amongst the field, and select the robots and teams that will best complement them in their quest to become event champions.

This is an important feature, as it compensates for the randomness of the qualifying rounds.

As much as one could perceive a top seeded team selecting weaker robots as a "kind gesture" to help provide them with the experience of a run through the elimination process and a chance to qualify for Atlanta, it also means that the top seed would be willfully selecting to NOT choose teams that through their wise design choices, hard work, and careful strategy and driving were perhaps more deserving of the reward of playing on Saturday afternoon.

I doubt the teams that were not selected, so that two poorer performing teams could "have a shot" would fully appreciate the intent of this choice.

That said, teams in the top eight get to choose their alliance partners however they darn well please. We have ranked as high as 12th and NOT been picked (as painful as that was, we did make it in, as the #1 replacement bot... our very first trip to the elims), and as low as 66th and HAVE been picked (because an alternative auto mode that we developed when our ball shooter broke down matched a top seed's auto mode... breaking down made us "better"). Ironically, both situations happened in back-to-back regionals for us.

I have also seen teams misread an alliance number and accidentally select a team they never really meant to pick. (Or have I just read about that on CD? My memory is going... it might just be an urban legend that I have incorporated in to my memory bank somehow.)

And I have seen teams pick alliance partners that made no sense to ME, at the time, but made perfect sense to them. Heck... I've seen that in Atlanta... and have to admit that the team made a pretty good choice regardless of what I initially thought.

I have also seen able teams left out of the elimination rounds because they failed to successfully promote their robot's abilities, and "weaker" robots make it in because the team successfully promoted a "niche" ability of their robot.

But I have never heard of a top seed intentionally selecting two alliance partners just because they "thought it would be nice to invite them into the elimination rounds". It might have happened... but while it would certainly be gracious to do it, I have to question how professional it would be.

But in the end... the picks are the top seed's choice to do with as they please.

Jason

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

Yes indeed, we were bested by some of them at Buckeye.
I guess I over estimated the descriptive power of the word 'deserving' in my original post though :rolleyes: and maybe shouldn't even have mentioned the word rookie.
I had in mind teams (rookie or not) that brought something more compelling than a robot with them, something that made them stand out in spite of a hapless robot.
I certainly was not talking about pity -- just the opposite -- I was talking about respecting teams for something other than their competitive prowess.
Thanks for your perspective though, you make good points -- it is, after all, a competition.
And thanks most for understanding what I was asking. :o

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

It's almost always the case that the high-scoring powerhouse teams seed at the top. Often, the top-seeded teams then like to select another big scorer with their first pick. But when the draft snakes back and the top alliances get to make their second pick, all the good scorers have been snatched up. That's where scouts and strategy crews decide what else they want if they can't have a second good scorer. For Overdrive, for instance, teams would often get picked just to run laps and rack up the 2 pointers. I can tell you that it gave a new lease on life to teams that couldn't hurdle. In Breakaway, the top pickers often opt for their second pick to try to shut down or harass the top scorers on the other alliance. This opens the door to many different teams fitting the criteria, and often many underdog and rookie teams get picked for that reason.

So basically, there's always hope for the lesser teams at every tournament. As long as Cinderella can do something well that the picking teams value, she can be going to the dance with the big boys.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

Yes, it does happen.
One of the last 5 robots not picked yet, gets to be with the #1 alliance in a regional with 28 teams. ;) ;)
And that team is going to Atlanta this year, as a result.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

I think Jason's comments are spot on.

I have thought "What are they thinking?!" during alliance selection only to be eliminated by that alliance. Funny how that works... :o

It seems that every year an Alliance Captain or two in New Hampshire will select a team that isn't at the event. I'm pretty sure 233 has been offered a spot in the BAE eliminations at least twice in recent years, impressive for a team that has never attended the regional!

In 2006 we were fortunate enough to end up an alliance captain and select the team (133) that mentored us in 2004. We wound up winning the event along with 1519 and qualifying for Atlanta. It was pretty special to both qualify for Atlanta with our mentoring team, but their robot certainly pulled its own weight!

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

In 2006 at the Boston Regional 121 and 233 teamed up, they were both dominant scorers that year and it was pretty obvious they would win the regional. 121 could have picked any team to play defense and could have won easily, however they picked us, we won the regional, and went to Atlanta. The regional win and trip to the championships made it a lot easier to find new sponsors for the next year. 121 essentially saved 1568 from folding that year.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

1075 has been 11th seed before, and not been picked (would have been 9th alliance captain). Kettering Kickoff 2009.

If you want examples of your "cinderella story" scenario, where a powerhouse alliance carries a relatively weak team to a regional champion and seat in atlanta, look no further than the Canadian Regionals. 1114 and 2056 consistently dominate here (2056 is 4 times defending at WAT, 3 at GTR)(1114 is 5 times defending at GTR and 3 of the last 4 at WAT, not attending in 2009), and carry a third team through the finals.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

I can think of a few times where we picked teams who didn't think they would get picked because they were valuble to playing the game the way we played it that year, but other teams weren't playing the way we did and overlooked them. My favorite example of this is 2006 we were the Galileo 2 seed due to a tiebreaker. We picked 1126 first. A clear top choice to us. Our second pick was 201. They were a gem that no one had picked up on for our style of play. Only after we won the division did a mentor on 201 tell me that he had given the "Sometimes you try hard and just don't make it speech," the night before telling me they had no idea anyone would pick them. It felt good to take a team like that with us.

I could list off other similar stories but that was my favorite because I could see it in that mentor when he told me about talking to the kids how much it meant to them.

Also for Cinderella stories, don't forget about that pesky Newton 8th seed alliance that won the Championship a few years back...

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

Wow, I remember watching 201 fall and wanting our alliance (#3) to select them before you (#2) could. However, we went with a defensive specialist which differed from my opinion that you should go for "all out offence" if they can get quality like 201 that can floor collect. I still think we would have beat you in the semis with 201 if for no other reason than you couldn't replace their scoring, (there was no one even close left). I got involved with the strategy team the next year.

Then again, you probably would have found a way to Einstein as you have the last 4 years. You have directly eliminated us in all 3 rounds of divisional play QF ('09), SF ('06), and F ('08) during that run (why do we keep ending up in the same division? :rolleyes: ). At least when we paired up in '04 we made a Div Final run.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

At Buckeye, we were the #2 seed and picked two rookie teams who we had worked with all year, 3138 (who is STOUT offensively) and 3201 (Good defense)... We almost got to Atlanta, but failed to close the deal in the third match of the finals. 3138 is the only one going south out of our alliance, due to their Rookie All Star award... It was a great experience for 3201 to be involved in the eliminations at the first regional they ever attended, which was our intent when we picked them to join us! Cool stuff!

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

I remember a situation that might be what you're looking for. I will leave team numbers out of it in case anyone wants this to be kept quiet.

In 2005, "Team A" significantly helped "Team B" throughout the build season and both showed up to the same regional with functional machines. Team A was not very successful and end up placing in the bottom 10% in the final rankings. Team B, however, seeded 1st. It became clear that Team A was not going to get chosen for the elimination rounds. The captain of Team B offered to use their second pick to select Team A so they could have a shot at eliminations. Team A declined saying that Team B should pick the team they though would best help the #1 alliance succeed. Team B picked a more competitive partner and ended up winning the regional. Team A went un-picked, but cheered Team B on throughout the eliminations.

My opinion is that both teams acted honorably.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

When our team puts together the list of who we would like to pick, we do have discussions of "I really like their team, they really seem to get it, let's move them up the list," or "we haven't seen anyone besides the mentors ever work on their robot, move them down a few notches," so it's not just about performance. We want to win, but we would prefer to do so with a great partner team, not just a great partner robot.

About picking lower ranked teams, one of the coolest things I've seen was an odd pick at VCU probably 6 or 7 years ago. None of us understood the pick until the first alliance match. We barely even recognized the lower ranked robot, the alliance captain had built a part to literally bolt on top of their partner robot. They had been scouting for a team with a solid drive train and enough underweight for the part to be added. I don't even know if their partners were aware of this plan before they went back to the pits.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

We would never say we could "carry" anyone or be stupid enough to attempt it. But we do consider in our scouting sessions whether a team needs a ticket to the CMP or is already attending.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

It happened to my team this year. The first place team, Miss Daisy, selected our rookie all-girls robotics team to be in their alliance. NYC Regional Winners 2010:)

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

This year at Palmetto, 343 picked 1398 as their 2nd pick. 1398 has never had (until this year thanks to 2815) a lot of engineering help and as a result has never been able to earn any respect for their robot. When we picked them, it was the 1st time they had EVER been picked to play in the elims. They were awesome! We were able to pick the true "sleeper" bot this year.

1398 has gone to Nationals in the past by winning the Chairman's Award, and this year had actually already qualified for Atlanta by winning the Engineering Inspiration Award at the Bayou Regional. But they have never gotten there by winning a regional!

As far as a rookie Cinderella, both rookie teams at Palmetto had already been picked. So 1398 was the next best Cinderella story!

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

Yeah, I was there.
If I recall, 3138 had, uh, shall we say, mobility problems that last match, right?
You guys were an alliance to be reckoned with for sure -- bad luck aside.
I think 3138 was *the* most impressive robot there, and there many very impressive robots.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

Congratulations!
Looking forward to seeing you in Atlanta.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

3138 learned a little about seating PWM cables properly in the final match... Regardless of the outcome, we had a blast and look forward to the off season!

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

At Boston we were in 50th after the quals. We are a defensive robot so a lot of our wins and losses depend on our alliance partners. We all ran like crazy trying to make a name for ourselves with ALL of the top teams. We were picked by the fourth seed 88 (TJ Squared) as their defensive guy. They also picked team 1922 Oz Ram. We went on to become tournament champions. We did our best to block the other alliance despite being double teamed in our zone. While we blocked 1922 and 88 were busy scoring like crazy. They worked incredibly well together, one returning balls to the other who would quickly score it.

We were pumped to be picked into the elims. for the first time ever. And when we saw the scores at the end of Finals Match 2 is was hugs, jumping and tears all around.

I don't think it gets too much more "Cinderella story" than that.

I would really like to thank 88 and 1922 again both for giving us a chance in the finals and for being such GREAT offensive alliance partners.

~DK

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

The smartest ones will, at least.:)
Yeah, we were 11th seed at CMP once, and didn't get picked. That was actually an excellent lesson for us: We were a good robot, but there's this thing called "Strategy"...:eek:

Back to the OP: Some teams take factors other than performance into consideration, but not most. An alliance captain has a duty to the rest of the team to actually win something, and not harm those chances by selecting someone who can't perform. But, if they pick a 'deserving' team when all else is equal, that seems good.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

Thank you, team 1629 also had a very impressive robot. We look forward to seeing you in atlanta.

Re: A Cinderella story?
 

im from team 2518 from 10000 lakes regional. we are cinderella! two years ago we were rookies and we make a robot totally from our own cutting and welding and bolting (unlike some robots who get all parts machined and sent to them) we werent on the top 8 but we got picked with 525 and 93 and we made it to atlanta with no problems.
similarly this year we got picked with 525 and 2177 and if our robot hadnt lost its motor key it would have gone to nationals again! we are the crudely built, heavy, boxy, unattractive (unlike cinderella) thing of a robot every year and we preform! amazingly enough, both times we were in the 40s for seeding.
ALL TEAMS GOING TO MINNESOTA REGIONAL NEXT YEAR REMEMBER 2518 OR YOU WILL BE JEALOUS YOU DIDNT GO TO ATLANTA:cool: (and thank you all three teams for including us in your decisions, we will preform again next year)