Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

Like the ZomB Dashboard! (Its in C# and uses graphs!)
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...t=82612&page=2
http://firstforge.wpi.edu/sf/projects/zombdashboard

We used these graphs to tweak our drive system to perfection

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

Personally, i love C++.
But cant stand the windriver software >.>

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

I SO TOTALLY agree with that!!!

For me, my experience with WindRiver was just completely filled with errors about no robot code, licensing problems, building errors, RAM use, and everything else in between.:)

I wish we had a better choice for C++...:rolleyes:

-Masoug

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

I have been in the programming business for some time and use all three languages. I always find this discussion very interesting. The battle of the languages. Who is faster, who is easier, who is used more, bla bla bla bla.

All three Languages eventually do the same thing in the end and that is they are compiled down to a much lower level set of instructions for the processor.

That being said, I really don’t think any of the three is better than the other as far as the application of a First robot, as they all share the same LabView libraries which I believe are written in C. If this was an interstellar probe or a very large distributed application that might be a different story.

For now would suggest the following:

LabView for a rookie team with no programming experience or someone majoring in engineering
Java for a team with someone who has experience with it or someone who is majoring in computer science/computer modeling
C++ for a team with someone who has experience with it or someone who is majoring in information technology/programming

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

several of the programmers on our team know how to use C++ but none of them want to teach it so we always end up using labview. Which works fine. Except for when no one bothers to clean up the diagrams. Then debugging is impossible.

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

I prefer Java as of now compared to C++ and Labview. First of all, the compatible IDE is available for linux also. This is a huge plus for me because I like being able to use my IDE on linux also.

Labview, I do not like GUI that much. I do not like having to navigate through menus to find stuff. Needing to clean graphics to know what is happening was not appealing to me either. I understand that Labview probably is the easiest language to use as of now.

C++ the main offputting thing for me is the use of Windriver. I like Netbeans being available on multiple different operating systems too much.

I would find it extremely pleasing if Python becomes an official option for 2012. I think there would be a high chance like java, to be available on multiple operating system probably because of being open-source and that I do not mind not having to use symbols to enclose blocks of code.

Teaching programming is a very abstract thing. I find it best if you try to explore and ask mentor(s) if you are doing it right or clarify something. Programming for the robot is different from conventional programming since people took care of the lower level things so you could focus on getting the robot to do stuff. I would say the basics would need to be covered like how the basics of the language works and data types, functions, variables, arithmetic, case structures, and loops.

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

Most teams just go with what they've got the most experience with from the conversations I've had with other programmers. Our team uses Java, but that's just because I've been the head programmer since the control system switched over, I've known Java for years and our programming mentor knows Java. That made it a relatively easy decision for us (though we did use LabVIEW for a year as well after the switch, didn't really like it). If you know C++, I'd say stick with that.

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

I agree with this post, but have a few clarifications.

Java and C don't go through LV libraries. They call directly into NI libraries built for use with LabWindows CVI. This is NI's engineering oriented C development environment. There is often a glue layer or new set of entry points for LV to call into.

The FPGA program is written in LV.

Greg McKaskle

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

My team is working with java and we seem to be ggetting along just fine but overall i would recomend windRiver C++ as it will most likly give you more control and from what i know more teams use it than java so the fourms will be full of more people using it. I wouldnt rrecomend labview though as the interface is strange and it took along time for anyone including the mentor for our programing team to find it out and only one person has. The interface is much easier to use weather you use java or WindRiver.

Good Luck
From a fellow programer and electrical team member

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

2¢ from a rookie programmer here: our lead programmer graduated last year and I wound up taking his place this year. We had a bit of a hard time deciding between C++ and LabVIEW but went with C++, because I had a little experience with it and figured it was a bit easier for my brain to understand than what I'd seen of LabVIEW, heh.

With the help of a fabulous programming mentor, I've become reasonably competent in the last few months. My previous experience with programming was limited to some console applications [standard beginning-C++ stuff] and a bit of NXT G. It is so much better to jump in and start working with tangible applications. I am really enjoying working with a text-based language, but if I had to get a rookie programming team up and running I'd probably use LabVIEW, especially if they'd done NXT programming on an FLL team.

I suspect programmers' individual learning and working styles are a lot more important than the benefits of any particular language. I'm having crazy amounts of fun working with C++ and I think it'll be more of an asset to me in college than LabVIEW would have been, because I'm planning to major in computer science/programming.

WindRiver on the other hand.....not so much, heh. Not the most intuitive IDE I've encountered......
Incidentally, I once tried to get the WPI libraries running on my Mac at one point but ran into issues with the lower-down header files and so on. Is this even possible or would the lower-level architecture stuff have to be totally reworked? It would be rather cool to be able to compile code in, say, Xcode even if you still had to deploy from a PC. Annnnd I won't start the opensource/industry standard/real world debate :)

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

From my experience, grizzled acients in the programming field would not be caught dead saying that LabVIEW is a true programming language. But when they say that C++ is better, I always tell them how people that are assembly purists laugh at C++ or any other high level programming language.

The fact of the matter is, LabVIEW is a programming language, and for FRC, it is quite a useful tool. Our team has many young, soon to be programmers with no previous experience. I feel we can teach programming concepts using LabVIEW without having to teach them the syntax of C++ or Java.

I think that if you are new to FIRST, you should probably start with LabVIEW and look into reprogrammin your robot in other languages during the offseason to figure out which one has the perks you are looking for.

For the record, I use LabVIEW because of the time it takes to write a program and even make test programs for it. I do, however, know C++ and Java but feel the cons outweigh the pros when it comes to FRC.

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

We use LabVIEW because it seems to be clearly easier to learn and we find the graphical/data flow programming aspect to be quite intuitive. The concept of a front panel is also great for debugging. I know people have said you can create GUIs in the text based languages. But I think it's clear that LabVIEW makes this task way easier since that kind of functionality is built simply right in at its core.
I have worked in all 3 and I agree they have their strengths and weaknesses, but none of them is truly better than the others. I think a major weighing point is what the context and application is. I agree that rookie teams with no programming experience should go with LabVIEW, where as if you are familiar with one language already, then go with that. Inspiration and trying new things is always valuable, though, and if you have a strong team and programming group, it might help more than hurt to try a different language.

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

Even with veteran teams, C++ is more coplicated than Labview. A flow chart is more simple, understanding, and visual than written down code. I'm not trying to be mean to anyone who uses C++, but Labview is more useful. :D

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

Hello All,
I think I will be the lead programmer next year and want to decide on a good language to use. This year we used LabVIEW and I really liked how it worked and how easy it was to use. Another member in the club who does not program for the club is very fluent in Java but does not program for the club. I saw his code, and it was easy to read, but could not figure out how to write it. My Dad and this last years leads Dad both know C++ and if we decide to go with that they can teach Me and any other members that are interested in programming next year. There are a a few Mentors that want to use C++ and a few wanting to use LabVIEW. I can see where the mentors wanting to do C++ are coming from, but I personally would like to use LabVIEW and so would the 2 Senior Programmers that are moving on. Please reply with feedback on my LabVIEW vs. C++ dilemma.
Thank You,
grimmcoder

Re: PROGRAMMERS: WIND RIVER C++ vs LABVIEW vs JAVA
 

Is there something like this for Java? It is probably my favorite language, but I'm considering labview just for the awesome debugging capabilities