Chief Delphi - Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

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Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

This thread should close with that last post. It can't get any better.:)

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGCO (Post 948458)

469 is an amazing machine. I believe that they lawyered their way around an incredible amount of rules, and that their bot isn't in "the spirit of the game". After seeing their robot in action, there were many red flags that went off in my team's heads. We looked up the rules that we thought they were breaking, but couldn't find anything they broke. They definitely read the rules very literally.

At MSC, there were a couple of alliances that were able to shut them down. The key was starving them. Also, if the Thunderchickens had a side-kicker then they would have been able to defeat 469 with ease. They could have just moved back-and-forth, and then hit the ball across the field as soon as they blocked it.

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

I think you are letting your emotions run away with you.

First, I don't think that 469 "lawyered" their way into anything. The rules are the rules. Not only do the rules as initially published make their design legal, a clarification relatively early by FIRST reaffirmed the legality of their machine. Moreover, there are other machines that do similar things (albeit not as well). Is it the rules we are worried about or just the effectiveness of the implementation?

Second, 469 is in no way the "most hated" team in FRC or anywhere else. Perhaps you are referring to the shouts of joy in the stands at MSC when 469 tipped over or had any sort of hiccup. If so, I think you are confusing relief that there may be SOME hope for us mortals with actual anger at the team.

Do not confuse competitive reactions with actual dislike.

Las Guerrillas was, is and will remain (God willing) one of the fixtures of the Michigan FIRST landscape. Their storied past and their fearsome robots as well as their efforts to advance FIRST in Michigan and around the country/world are legendary.

Here's to Las Guerrillas. Well done, well done, well done.

Joe J.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

Quote:

Originally Posted by JABot67 (Post 948116)

I guess my post was mostly based on last year. For example, team 503 was 12th pick at MSC last year but 16th pick on Newton. The Bees moved down a couple of spots too, even with their (awesome) improved spitter. 247 was the second pick at MSC but the 10th pick on Curie. We saw some teams go up (469, 85) but mostly the trend was downward.

503 was the last pick on Archimedes, but they should have been gone much earlier. The scouts there weren't really picking like I thought they would have.

Your other examples are good, but Galileo was pretty stacked last year at the top level.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGCO (Post 948458)

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

I would say that is far from the truth. One of their mentors (Dan) provided us a lot of help trying to get our robot running. They, along with many other powerhouses, continuously help out other teams trying to get them working. For that the team as a whole will never be hated for all the help and inspiration they provide. They also help out with a lot of behind the scenes work needed to keep some events going. Would I have like to see them lose? Probably, but thats just the whole underdog. They built a wonderful robot and its amazing to watch. My hats off to them and I wish them the best.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

Quote:

Originally Posted by BJC (Post 948244)

Ya, last year we were "Inspired by Hot" to say the least, lol;) . But quite honestly the more I look and think about it, even the michigan districts were stacked. For example, even though 33 is good this year we haven't won a compitition because of the crazy level of compitition we have faced all season. At Kettering we faced 67 and 910, in Troy we faced 217 and 469, and in States we faced 67 and 217. I think this just goes to further show just how competitive/crazy Michigan really is.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There are MANY, many teams that can step out of Michigan and totally destroy at other regionals. Teams considered average in Michigan can topple the giants of other regionals, and I would love to see more of them come out of Michigan to compete in coming years.

33 is by far one of my favorite teams in FRC btw, and I think if they stepped out of Michigan, they would see a few gold medals of their own, very easily.

Michigan is a scary thing to think about, they breed the world's best FRC teams out there. Other places that are in 2nd place (by a large margin) are IMO, Indiana, those crazy Canucks, and NJ :rolleyes:

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

Quote:

Originally Posted by GGCO (Post 948458)

How can you make such a statement? 469 is one of the most respected team in Michigan. They helped start many teams and helped them look for funding including ours. Their mentors spent a lot of time mentoring us in our rookie year. They gave us material and parts when we were in a rush. They opened their shop to us when we had to work on Sunday to finish our robot. They opened their full size field for us and many other teams to practice. And if you know the history of how this team get started, you would not have said what you said.

I suggest you take back your statement and stop bashing 469. They have an amazing machine which other teams considered building but were not successful. They are very smart in how they implemented it.

Please watch what you say on this forum unless you are not here to make friends, and 469 has a lot of friends.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

I'm really upset that one of the only truly innovative robot / strategy combinations I've seen in FRC is seen as lawyering the rules by so many. Keeping up that thinking is why 99% of robots this year look exactly the same.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Kressly (Post 947412)

Give yourself the best chance to win at the event you're at by picking the best possible alliance partners available - always. Teams work too hard and there is never a guarantee you'll ever be in that position again.

As a third party observer, however, yeah Joe, I'd like to see a pairing that could give em a run.

I agree with you, to every extent. That's exactly what I was thinking.

Cass

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

I think another state who is starting to rise in FRC domination would be Texas, they are not really on the same level as MI yet, but maybe soon...?

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

Quote:

Originally Posted by JABot67 (Post 948014)

Then again, look at Galileo last year. 971, the undefeated champions of Silicon Valley and an extremely effective scorer, were the LAST pick of alliance selection. Team 20 WASN'T PICKED.

Galileo 2009 was an anomaly in many ways. It was deepest division for top-tier robots and was quite deep in the 2nd tier as well. The reason 971 slipped to the last pick of the draft is because they had big problems on Thursday (showed up to 1 practice match at most) & Friday (died repeatedly, was under-performing all day) and didn't show a consistent ability to score until Saturday morning. That said, by the time the dust settled on Galileo it was obvious, to me at least, that they were the 5th or 6th best robot in the division.

I'm with the camp that believes the MI State Championship is more competitive than the divisions in Atlanta. The top tier is probably comparable, but the middle & bottom are much better in MI.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

Quote:

Originally Posted by JABot67 (Post 948014)

Then again, look at Galileo last year. 971, the undefeated champions of Silicon Valley and an extremely effective scorer, were the LAST pick of alliance selection. Team 20 WASN'T PICKED. I agree that Michigan has a ton of powerhouse teams. I would venture to say it has more powerhouses than any other state; this is why Michigan usually sends a lot of teams to Einstein. (4 2009, 5 in 2005, etc.) But the top 24 teams at MSC are not as good as the top 24 in a moderately strong division in Atlanta, especially considering that the latter has 20 more teams.

I agree with this post.
The MSC championships caliber is above the level of other regionals, and at the level of CMP but NOT above.
The difference as noted is that there are a lot more teams at CMP then MSC.
Many good teams wont make eliminations as it is close to a 3:4 chance of NOT making it. Its unfortunate, but that's how good (and a lot of) the top teams from everywhere, will make this true.
Teams like 25, 71, 111, 254, 330, 968, 987, 1114, 1717, 2056, etc. could have easily been selected for eliminations at MSC and very possible that more than half the list could have been in the top 8 during the seeding matches.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Soukup (Post 948581)

I'm with the camp that believes the MI State Championship is more competitive than the divisions in Atlanta. The top tier is probably comparable, but the middle & bottom are much better in MI.

This is true, however, all that matters is the top tier, as only the top 24 make it, and that's very small compared to how many per division.

I guess the question is what defines a more competitive regional?

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

Quote:

Originally Posted by WJF2011 (Post 948566)

I think another state who is starting to rise in FRC domination would be Texas, they are not really on the same level as MI yet, but maybe soon...?

I respectfully disagree. Michigan has MANY great teams and no other state comes even close, especially this season. I would rank California as the next best (in terms of #s).

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

California may have the next largest number of teams, but they also have more teams than Michigan. In that way, they may not be the second highest 'robot-quality per team' state. Also, with Michigan averaging 3 teams in the Einstein Finals since 2004, I don't think any other state or country (besides the US [duh]) really comes all too close. Of course, there's many ways to judge quality (i.e. Michigan, New York, and Ohio each have 2 CCAs), but in most respects there's little to no match.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basel A (Post 948619)

Just to clarify, California has more teams:
CA: 153 teams
MI: 140 teams
Even though it is hard to find on FIRST's Redesigned site the team/event map is still there

You are correct that quantity does not equal quality. MI is definitely the top state and it is not even close. Really you need to compare MI to regions. Is MI better than the rest of the Midwest? Now that is a tougher question. Where do New England, Mid Atlantic, South East, South West, West, Canada and other counties fit in? It is really all a matter of opinion.

Now as for the comparison to CMP. I believe that independent of divisions the top 96 (24*4) elim bots at CMP are on average better than the top 24 at MSC. This should make for better eliminations as the top tiers are deeper. Now throw in divisions and depending on the luck of the draw there pretty much will be at least 1 division that the the top 24 can be weaker than MSC. Divisions may also break pairings of outstanding individual teams (ie if you truly believe that 1918 & 469 or 67 & 217 is the best possible pairing it may not be possible at CMP but if it is can they can probably get a more accomplished 3rd bot).

Now where MSC is far ahead of CMP is in the qualification rounds. The middle and lower tiers are higher quality bots at MSC. All of the 65 teams at MSC qualified based primarily on their robot performance in 2 district events. At CMP a max of 141 (3 * 43 regionals + 12 FIM) of ~ 348 teams qualified based their robot performance at a regional this year. The rest can get in based on awards, open registration, HOF, etc... which doesnt necessarily indicate robot performance. It is even less than 141 robot performance qualifiers because teams win multiple regionals. There is no way (points system) for teams to qualify on robot performance without winning a regional, leaving strong double finalists like 987 out. A good # of the teams at CMP dont have elim experience this year. This dilutes the talent in any given qualifier. The amazing qualifier matchups like at MSC will fewer and farther between at CMP. Also it seems the MI teams used good qualifier strategy, which lead to higher scoring, more exciting matches. Hopefully, a higher percentage of teams at CMP will employ good qual strategy than at some regionals.

Fortunately, the new seeding system (post TU16 I think it is doing a great job of ranking the top bots high) and atleast one more match per team should result in much better CMP seeding than usual. In previous years, a surprise #1 in at least 1 division has been the norm. I'm definitely looking forward to CMP elims. Of course as usual the CMP & MSC competitive levels will be trumped by IRI :D