Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Sorry, I thought you were talking about after they deployed. If we are talking about them not getting into position is the first place, I obviously agree that a great pusher would have the best chance of delaying their deployment.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

That's what I intended to say, I promise. I was having a durrr moment.

When making an argument, you must have a solid point, then use the assumption of that point to make your next point. The above is not a solid point. Now, I can't claim it's one way or another, neither from data nor from experience, but just because you think it and have minimal evidence doesn't mean it's true.

Personally, in most years I would be unsure about comparative quality. However, this year I think Michigan is having an above average season. This year, I believe that MSC finals could match Einstein semifinals or even finals. Where else do you get an 18-18 tie, with one robot on each alliance playing defense?

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I know its not a solid point just my opinion/prediction. We are all just sharing opinions thats why I qualify it as my belief (others are free to disagree). Often if you dont throw something like IMHO or I believe in then you get someone posting something like "you dont know that" which is true but is moot because no one really knows. Of course your response is much better reasoned and worded, but you also qualify all your statements with "personally", "I think" etc... which is not a solid point as you correctly pointed out. My opinions are based on observations from 2 regionals attended and watching multiple webcasted regionals at once on the other weeks including most of MSC and experience in FIRST that is humble compared to many on this forum.

So since we are both just sharing opinion lets compare. We both agree that MSC is better than any other regional by a good margin. We disagree about whether the MSC elim field is better than the CMP elim field which happens over a week from now in an ever evolving game. My opinion is that the CMP quals will not be as good as MSC because the elim level talent is spread out and I believe good high scoring qual mathces (combined score is a good metric) requires 6 quality bot and good qual strategy that is more prevalent in MI. However, I believe that all divisions will seed well so that most divisions will field a better elim group than MSC. It will still be basically a matter of opinion if the elim field is better because there is very few metric you can use to compare. Combined score is not a very good metric because different effective strategies can produce varying scores, however tracking MI robot performance might be good.

Everything is opinion because we cant produce any good stats to compare regionals. We have combined scores and OPR but those are regional specific and hard to normalise. The graph of regionals is probably not interconnected enough (particularly with MI teams playing at very few outside events) to for a good Elo style rating system .

As for the MSC finals they were epic and I dont know if Einstein will produce a series with that entertainment value of rubber match in final 4. However, MSC finals a poor example when discussing depth of an elim field, because that is more about the 4 top MSC robots (1918, 469, 67, & 217) with very good 3rd partners (2834 & 2612, I'm not going to set Jack up) that no other alliances could beat for in a single match (close but no upsets).

As for 18 - 18 with 1 robot per alliance playing defence that really depends on how you interpret defence. I didnt see any robots that were "only playing defence" (trust me I've seen that enough to know it when I see it) just 6 robots playing good strategic roles in that match. I saw 217 blocking 469's shots then shooting them at their blue goals to be scored. All 6 robots contributed significantly to their alliance score while also contributing in at different levels to the defensive effort. Bravo to all the teams, that is a great way to play the game.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

It's true, there are often much worse cases. It was just a little bothersome that you made further statements based on perviously stated opinion (stated as opinion of course), because while those new opinions are rooted from the previous opinion and are similiarly respectable (by no means am I trying to reject your opinions), they only become more far fetched as they travel along that branch. Like I said, it gets much worse than what you did, and I apologize for the over-criticism. Now, let's get to the real discussion here


Like you said, this base here that we disagree upon is mostly based on opinion more than fact. After a few years of having an MSC, we may be able to judge this better. As the rest of the country and world gets better, Michigan may begin to fade, expecially as many teams are losing sponsors and may begin to fold. On the other hand, Michigan may continue this and last year's impressive performance, with less financial issues with the lower-cost districts, and newer teams being consistent powerhouses. In this, perhaps the best answer is "Time will tell."


Like you said, strategy makes a huge difference in scores. In the earlier districts in Michigan, teams were playing a lot of defense, and though scores were somewhat higher than other regionals, they were not significantly so. However, it seemed that as the season moved on, defense became less prevalent, though it stayed at about the same level in regionals elsewhere. At the MSC, there were very, very few robots that truly only played defense, even in a single match. Because every robot had to earn their place, every robot had mroe than one ability, from good ball control and kicking, to great defense, to being able to easily suspend other robots. because of that, scores quite skyrocketted.

I'm by no means trying to say that this is an example of a regular match or even an average finals match-up. They were quite spectacular, and I just hope they'll continue to live up to this new bar.

I interpreted 217's play as mainly blocking shots, and secondarily clearing balls to avoid them from being scored by 2834, but again, that could just as well be seen as half defense and half offense. There was no absolute role played by any robot, and in that way it was a great match to watch to see some master strategy and gameplay taking place.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

No disrespect intended, but not even close. TX team numbers are rising fast due to the infusion of some big funding. However, once you get past the top level teams in TX, you'll find many that are nowhere ready to be competitive with even the "average" MI team. For example, I believe in Houston there were a large number of teams not yet fully inspected (30+ I think, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong) on Friday AM at the event. Perhaps teams numbers and excitement are growing in TX, but many of these new teams are a long way from being long-term sustainable let alone competitive like we see in MI.

One thing I know for sure in TX - the "top level vets" are working their butts off to support all of the new FRC participants in their home state and I applaud their example ... and I pray, with more grant funding expanding things further next year, that the same amount of veteran teams there can continue to provide the level of FRC support the whole state will need.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

To add to what Rich is saying, I think it is important for teams to be able to compete to the best of their ability. Sometimes, that can mean playing against a deeper field of competent and robust drive teams/robots. Usually when the competition gets deeper/tougher, the teams can rise or be pulled up to the occasion. With Lone Star running so deep with teams who are still learning the basics in FRC and competition, they aren't well prepared as teams at this stage. If there were more "top level vets" that competed at Lone Star or were of the region, the process would advance quicker.

A few teams in Texas have learned the benefits of traveling outside the state to other competitions over the years. They have also learned the benefits of attending competitive off seasons. The majority of teams in Texas are still not at the point of considering a 2nd competition or traveling to other competitions, and off seasons aren't even a blip on the radar. Hopefully, teams will learn that if they want to deepen their competitive abilities, they will have to consider more options and take advantage of them. They will also have to deepen their knowledge in the technical and the non-technical aspects of running a competitive team.

I also think the competitions, themselves, need to stay sharp and stay abreast of what it takes to run a top notch and professional event. Each year brings change and opportunity, not only to teams but to events and to the program, itself.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Wow. I can't believe I missed this thread.

Regarding the original question, we were fortunate enough to be in that position. We had heard rumors that 67 & 217 were going to pair up - passing up on 469. I was never convinced. We were advised by several people that we should pick 67 and then 217 in the hope that they would turn us down, just to break them up. That wasn't our style. Last year we lost to 67 & 217 in the finals and we wanted a rematch. A chance like this doesn't come around every day, and we were wise enough to take it.

When it looked like we would seed #1 we started talking to 469, and our scouts got together to compare notes. Having 469 as a partner completely changed what we were looking for in a third partner. While most teams were looking for defense, 1918 was going to play center zone support and we needed a front zone striker. That is probably why 2834 was still around.

We were struggling with overheated motors by the time we got to the finals and we really struggled to feed many balls into the loop. Our driver ran a good balance between trying to move balls and trying to slow 67 down. 2612 made every move a lot of work for us.

469 is a great team with a great robot. I have a lot of respect for them on and off the field. We never got to play against them in quals. Perhaps we will in Atlanta. I think they can be stopped by the proper combination of robots and a bit of luck. Who knows. Just like they do a lot better with proper help, it will take an alliance to stop them - not any single, great robot.

Regarding the depth & quality of teams in MI compared to other areas in the country, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. There is definitely a large core of great teams here that improves the quality of every other team that comes into contact with them. However, the FIM format helps us out a lot. If you look at how seeding scores improved week to week at the district events, it is apparent that the same teams finished the season a lot better than they started it. That pattern ought to repeat anywhere the teams get a real chance to develop their skills. For this year, however, I think the rest of the country will be in a world of hurt in Atlanta (with notable exceptions, of course). We'll see in a week.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

What I am going to say deviates from the original post but I wanted to reply to something Wayne said. I want to explain why we designed our robot that way.

Some time in Week 2 or 3, after some discussions with Jim Zondag from Team 33 who mentors us, I came to the conclusion that the great teams will want to play midfield or start in far zone to kick the 3 balls and move to midfield. My predictions were correct. This is similar to real soccer where if you dominate the midfield, you will most likely win.

My philosophy for our young team at this point is to design a robot to be the best supporting robot and not try to do everything. We wanted to help our alliance partners win matches. This worked really well last year when we concentrated on delivering empty cells. We were able to make a difference in many matches and helped our alliance partners win. It worked so well that we were alliance captain #8 at the State Championship. However we realized that we were lacking a critical component which is to collect balls so we put it in with Team 33's help during offseason before going to MARC.

This year, in order to try to get picked in the elimination round, I decided to design a robot to play striker in the near zone to support the good robots playing midfield. I designed the kicking angle to kick low and not try to clear a long distance. I put in soft kick for very near shots and regular kick for further out. We concentrated on ball control to quickly acquire balls. We also realized early on that there is no shame in pushing balls in when you can push 2 or 3 at a time at close to 100% accuracy. That is why we can score 8 balls a match. Our robot can actually go to midfield and score from there. We did that quite a few times when our partners were not able to feed us balls. Most teams probably didn't know this about us unless they have very detail match scouting data.

During alliance selection, we were passed up by all the teams, partly because we were ranked very low and partly because they were looking for defensive robots. Throughout district events and qualifying at States, we never played defense in the far zone so teams could not tell what we can do. When the alliance selection got down to #15 pick and Team 67 and 217 picked 2612, I thought we should just pack up. I thought I made the wrong decision to design the robot to play near zone. Fortunately the combination of 1918 and 469 needed a near zone striker and we were the best robot other than 910 (from scouting statistics) for that role.

We did contribute to the alliance. I posted the videos on vimeo and you can count how many balls we cleaned up including the winning shot in match 4 of the finals as time expires. Despite one team calling us nothing more than a pushing cart, we can actually shoot from far away if we need to.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

This post made my day. If I were in your shoes, I would have done the exact same thing.
We were #1 twice this season. When it came down to making the 1st choice, it was about taking the best robot that complemented our style of play as striker. And never about weakening the other alliance.
Congrats on the win! Its not everyday a 67/217 alliance gets beat.:ahh:

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

After watching videos of your matches, you certainly did contribute. Pushing cart or not, the bottom line is you scored enough to get a blue banner!
Teams that focus on striking will definitely get picked in ATL.

If an all-around robot is an alliance captain, I'd predict that they take the best all-around bot with their first pick followed by a pure striker in the 2nd round. I highly doubt you'll find 3 excellent all-around bots on one alliance, even at CMP, and the fact that its not imperative to have one.