Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I have been watching the Michigan State Championships with some interest.

First of all, the seeding points these guys are racking up are giant. I have not done the numbers, but after attending 2 regionals (Chesapeake and Long Island) and watching online the other weeks, I am ready to say that Michigan is the cream of the cream of the crop*. And I am not just talking 469 here. There are monster scores being put up over and over and over.

Here is my question for you. As has been discussed elsewhere on these fori and in many many FIRST circles around the country since the Cass Tech District competition, 469 is the real deal. They have come as close to a lock on the Championship as any team has ever come.

So... ...suppose you are at a pre-Championship competition with them. Suppose you have been battling with them for #1 seed. Suppose you edge them out. Do you pick them and be virtually assured of another trophy (all be it, not FIRST's Grand Championship in Atlanta) OR do you pick another offensive powerhouse and a team to be named later in an attempt to find out PRIOR to the Championships if ANYONE can beat them?

Tough choice, high stakes.

Would you give up a near certain Michigan State Championship (the win of a lifetime for many teams) in order to probe the limits of a team that you may face in Atlanta?

Think about it. Let's hear what you have to say...

Joe J.

*I have predicted privately and now I predict online for the first time, that I believe that 4 of the 6 teams playing the last match on Einstein will be Michigan teams. The bottom half of the Michigan teams are the same as the bottom half around the country but the higher you go in the percentiles, the more distance the Michigan teams put between them and the rest of the country. I am far from unbiased on this matter but I think it is true.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

As far as I am concerned it has already been proven as possible at the Troy district event when 33/910/288 tied 217/469/1188 and the tie was due to a penalty on 33/910/288. I wish I could remember the specifics of the penalty. Unfortunately some mechanical failures on the 33/910/288 side prevented them from finishing the deal up.

Yes, I know that situation is not the same as beating them, but it is appreciably close that I would wait until I was forced to beat them and not go handicapping myself.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Joe,

I can understand exactly where you're coming from in your post, and after reading it, and thinking, I'd have to say that if the decision were up to me, I would skip picking a 469 type robot, and pick another offensive powerhouse. (Assuming we were of the caliber to seed #1 at an event like MSC)

It's not that I have anything against the game that 469 plays, or anything against them as a team, I just would like to try and roll the dice and see if we could beat them with a conventional strategy. After seeing videos of the Defense that 1310 played on 1114 & 2056, I am sure that 469 can, and will be beaten with a similar style of defense, it's just a matter of when.

You have brought up an interesting point here. It seems that a by product of the Michigan District system is an overall higher level of teams coming out of the State. I haven't seen any events with scores that can even compare to those of MSC. Teams are coming out of the Michigan District System with between 40 and 60 Matches on their records, before the Championship, while most Teams are lucky if they play that many matches in 2 or 3 seasons. I'd say a large portion of the success of Michigan Teams at the Championship will be because of this experience..

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

At the Mich state competition, there are so many good teams that the second ranked will still be very good and possibly take down a 469 alliance. The 4/5 winner will probably give them a good run for the money and maybe even win. The top seed will pick 469, but the second alliance will be 67/33/1918. A combination of 2 of those, especially 67 and 33 will be a good tag team to go after 469. The only reason I say 33 and 67 is because they can both get the last second hang in for 4 points, and that could be the deciding factor. A 469 and 1918 alliance with another good bot just to push balls in will be hard to stop.

I would not say 469 is the ultimate bot yet, I think someone else has a chance to win at the state competition, but it will be an epic finals!

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Assuming the HoT #67 manages to keep the number 1 seed (I have not heard since 7 this morning). I believe they will pick 469 and get a decline. They will then pick either 217, 27, 33, or 910. 469 will then pick 217 if available and if not pick one of the other 4. Then after all is said and done they will pick a powerhouse defense. Juggernauts anyone? Or the team at Troy whose number I can't remember that simply had to nudge a robot to flip them right over (not supporting flipping just saying, that 6 wheel drive bot had some major push).

The point is, if they can break the cycle quickly, they can beat 469. The only hard part is in fact breaking that cycle or keeping it from happening.

The best way to beat them is to block the tunnel in autonomous and wait until the balls from auton come back down the ball return, then leave and go play a real 3v3 game. If 469 doesn't have the initial cycle it becomes very slightly more difficult for them to walk all over the competition.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Good call Kyle. Although I really do think that 469 will do whatever they can to get 217. They may not be the best pick, but they are really good and the two have had a lot of play time together.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Give yourself the best chance to win at the event you're at by picking the best possible alliance partners available - always. Teams work too hard and there is never a guarantee you'll ever be in that position again.

As a third party observer, however, yeah Joe, I'd like to see a pairing that could give em a run.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I haven't seen a ton of Michigan matches, but is 67 significantly worse than the other 4? If not, then I don't see why 469 would decline their invitation. I would be very very surprised if they declined 67.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

67 is an absolute beast however something tells me that 469 would rather stick to having 217 on their side.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Do you think 217 would be around for 469 to pick as the 4th seed?

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Hmm now that they results are posted.

1918 picks 469 - accept
67 picks 33 - accept
573 picks 27 or 217 - accept
70 picks the leftover or 910 - accept
1718 picks leftover - accept

just my thoughts. All powerhouse scorers will be gone fast.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Well the Alliance are as follows:

1918 2834 469
573 1023 51
2612 67 217
33 1718 308
2619 226 2337
2137 70 910
2771 397 1711
201 27 703

Personally, I think that 67, 217 and 2612 will take this one. No disrespect to the first seed, but I saw 217 steal balls from 469, and this time, they can just get it one zone over, where 67 will be eagerly waiting to score.

Nice props to 201 and 27 getting together and 33 1718 are also a force to be reckoned with.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I still say we don't have nearly enough unbiased data to make this claim. Michigan has always been tremendously successful because of the caliber of teams from the state (stemming from incredible sponsors, teachers, and mentors concentrated in that area). See this thread I wrote after championship.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I agree with Sean here. The number of matches does play a part in how well these teams perform. But even in the early district events, Michigan teams (not just the top dogs we all talk about) were putting up numbers and performing well enough to be top contenders at any other regional. There are "lower end" robots in Michigan who could easily take down alliances from other regionals or put up significant fights.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

A big part for the higher ranking scores is they way they are playing.
I dont see much defense played at all.
Either 1 or 2 teams in the home zone and either 1 or 2 teams in the middle.
I saw a lot of alliances leaving the far zone empty with the mentality that we will outscore you, IMO. A true coopertition strategy in the race to the top of the rankings.
For many that ARE playing defense, they are doing things that a real goalie would never do.;) Thus, ineffective.

The bold prediction of Einstein will depend a lot on where teams are placed in the divisions at CMP. It'll be very highly anticipated in addition to Looking Forward's post.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Would anybody have considered (had they seeded first) not picking 1114 for Overdrive? Would anybody have considered picking somebody over 67 in Lunacy? I don't think so. Both of those teams were dominating in their respective years, and everybody was focusing on how to beat them. Eventually, both of those teams ran into a wicked alliance and then we got to see just how tough they were. The same thing is going to happen with 469 this year. They will be put to the test, and we'll see what they're made of.

If your goal is simply to see if 469 is mortal, then the MSC is not the best place to do so. The level of opposition you can bring against them at MSC is simply not as great as what they'll face in Atlanta. If you could pass over them and bring the toughest opposition they'll face all year, it might be worth not picking them. But since that's not going to happen, it's certainly not worth the sacrifice. If you think that 469 is the best team available, it would be foolish not to pick them.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

469 is beatable and here is how I think someone can beat them: as you saw in MSC 217 blocked a lot of the 469's "shots." If 217 had a ball magnet and shooter on the side of the robot 469 would never be able to loop balls. they would just catch them and shoot them to their goals. The reason 469 wins is because they still have another robot in front picking up and scoring the balls that are blocked.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Let me say this about that...

First, both 217 and 67 have 2 World Championships from Atlanta behind them. While most teams in Michigan would consider a chance to win the Michigan State Championship as the chance of a lifetime, I think that these two particular teams are more focused on what it will take to get their 3rd World Champion under their belt rather than winning another MSC. There is a 1 in 4 chance of being in the same division in Atlanta. If you are going to explore the weaknesses of 469 how many shots do you get? Not too many. Do you wait to test your plan for Einstein? I think you take your chances where and when they come. If I were a team ranked above 469 at the MSC, I think you might decide to try your Einstein strategy in Ypsilanti.

Second, I don't accept that the competition will be tougher on any stage in Atlanta save Einstein. I believe that the competition in Ypsilanti was head and shoulders above the divisions in Atlanta. I am not saying that there will be no great teams added to the mix in Atlanta but I AM saying that from top to bottom, the competition in Atlanta will not be as strong as what I just saw at MSC. It was a real showcase.

The why is a complex mix of the quality of the teachers, sponsors, mentors, the new district/state championship format, etc...

Joe J.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Didn't 1918 get to test strategies against 469 just by watching how 67 and 217 played them?

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Well, we were almost in the exact position proposed in this thread (* except we made a critical tactical error in match #108, resulting in a DQ and losing #1 seed).

Myself and our entire scouting team were trying to decide who to select between 217 and 469. About half of us were for 469, arguably the most dominate robot this season. The other half for 217, a x2 Champion and our best chance at defeating 469.

In the end, 469 was at the top of our list. The reason? They would have given us the best chance to win the event. Even as a x2 World Champion, we very much wanted to win the State Championship for a second straight year. We were not willing to sacrafice it to test an anti-469 strategy.

Unfortunately, we did not get that chance and we did get the opportunity to attempt to defeat them.

I will say this about 469, they are incredibly tough to beat. They took our hardest shots and came out on top. Our matches were extremely close and could have gone either way with a little swing of luck.

If you want to defeat 469, find video of the Finals from MSC. 217 showed a perfect strategy on how to defend them. But, even then the other robots will need to execute 100% to win.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

After reading some of these posts I think some answers can be answered...

469 and 67- I asked Dan of 469.. And he said if hot were to be the leader at the end of quailfing, they would have accepted.

67 and 217- I know the drive teams for both these teams very well, and as far as I know, both these teams hate to lose a match in general. Both teams want to win each match and each event they attend. That's what keeps them going, wanting to win all the time along with inspiring those to better themselfs to beat them. They love the competition, and Adam Freedmon, probably loved the idea of getting to play 469 now.

As for this topic in general, if I'm number 1 seed at MSC, I pick 469.. And played my heart out agaisnt everyone. This tournment proved that alot of things are possible. Atlanta will be nutz!!!

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

If you had the Thunderchickens or HOT in mind when you made this thread, I completely understand where you're coming from. Of course, if you're at the level of either of them, you know that eventually you'll probably have to get past Las Guerrillas to win big.

I was under the impression that you meant this idea could be applied to any team that ended up seeding at the top. My memory is fuzzy on this, but I believe that in round ten or eleven, HOT was at something like fourth and the Thunderchickens weren't even seeded in the top ten. It wasn't clear that either of those two teams would be in this situation. This screwy ranking system certainly added some entropy to the rankings. (And please don't flame me, 1918 was in no way undeserving, etc.)

Unless you're either 67 or 217, however, I still think my original point is valid. If you are one of those two, however, then I'm definitely with you on the concept of intentionally playing against 469 to prepare yourselves.

Perhaps I'm not as familiar with the Championships as you are, but my thinking when I made that point was that in Atlanta, both alliances' second picks will be better, allowing you to devote a better robot to shutting down 469's loop. I'll defer to your experience and accept that MSC will be tougher competition than the divisions. In light of that, again I'd agree that it's a good reason to at least consider not picking 469.

So basically, working under the same set of assumptions you started with, I'd completely agree with everything you said. :)




On a different note, it turned out that not having 469 was hardly "sacrificing" the State Championship. Of course it took some amazing play from some amazing teams, but I guess it means that not having the magical 469 fairy was not the kiss of death.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

You speak the truth my friend, between 469, 217, and 1918 in the finals of michigan will dominate in atlanta. It seems as though 469 has beaten the game, good job guys, im impressed.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

While I agree with your statement MSC is a deeper competition and therefore third picks while be better, I fully agree with your reason.

MSC had every team qualify in some way shape or form. They either were good enough to get picked and play in elimination matches and earned their points or won awards. Yes there were a couple teams that probably didn't deserve it as much as some teams that didn't go because they were carried by their alliance partners, even then they were good enough to be picked by a top seed, but (as a guess) most of those robots made it to at least the semifinals in one district. They earned their way.

Atlanta is not the same way. There is open registration for teams that have the money. MSC is actually more exclusive. While this is not the sole reason, I believe if 469 were going to be beat it would have happened at MSC.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I have not seen the finals matches yet (hopefully TBA will have them soon), but I usually prefer the quarterfinals with 469 as a good gauge of strategy. You see three teams going into the match knowing they are most likely doomed, and usually attempt two different game styles, one more effective than the other, before they pack it up and say goodnight. These strategies are generally different than what each team is comfortable with, and should be observed by others.

When we were picked 8th seed at MSC, I was crushed. I knew we weren't going past quarters, but we went into the match guns blazing. 2337 got in the way of 469 during auton and they ended up partially on the bump, and fell down. We had that match in our grasp until the crowd stopped yelling "BLUE ALLIANCE" because 469 had been righted and was on the tower. We lost 14-11. The second match was nowhere near as close. 2337 blocked the tower in the beginning of teleop and was just pushed out of the way by 469s incredibly strong drive (kudos for that by the way). We then attempted to block the cycle, but even though we are an incredibly agile bot, we only weigh in at about 88 pounds and can't win a shoving match against a cart, so we were stuck on the wrong side of 469 when the balls came down the ramp. We ultimately lost 16-7, still a respectable score against this winning alliance.

Lesson: Watch and learn from EVERY elimination match against 469.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

469 is beatable with the right combination of alliance members along with a sound strategy. 217 successfully defended 469, however it was a near 1 on 1 situation. Unfortunately, 217 being the prolific scorer they were, was sacrificed to defend 469. 67 and 217 would have had a field day in zones 1 and 2 had they relied on a strong defensive bot to neutralize 469.

Team 66 had effectively neutralized 469 in their match (match 77) in zone 2, keeping them from doing much of anything.

I think to win this years game, you will need two prolific scorers and one strong defensive bot, regardless of who is on the other team.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Rabbot: I would have to politely disagree about putting a strong defensive bot in the home zone. That robot needs to be able to clear the balls out of the home zone up to the midfield, otherwise the robot on the other team playing offense will just score the ones you block while you're still defending 469. That robot needs to be agile enough to block the balls as 217 did while also kicking as many as possible out of the zone, and hopefully permanently out of the loop.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

It was 2137. The reason why they were so amazingly powerful was they slightly offset their wheels by a quarter of an inch so that the middle one was slightly lower, allowing for easier turning. They also had about 100 pounds AND the battery in the first half of the robot. That made for easy bump traversing and absolutely insane pushing power. P.S. I loved their little indicator flag for when the kicker was pulled back. very smart, simple, and entertaining idea :)

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I disagree. You have to remember that in Atlanta, the michigan team will be peppered into 4 different divisions without the chance of cross picking. While there is more total talent in atlanta, there is going to be nowhere near the condensed talent you will find at Michigan State Championships. I mean, where else would a bot like Foley Freeze be picked by the #4 alliance?? Or the Monsters and Bionic Barons being picked as a 3rd round pick by the #1and 2 alliances?? Absolutely nowhere. I believe that Dave was right and that that Michigan State Championship was the hardest competition in the history of FIRST.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Then again, look at Galileo last year. 971, the undefeated champions of Silicon Valley and an extremely effective scorer, were the LAST pick of alliance selection. Team 20 WASN'T PICKED. I agree that Michigan has a ton of powerhouse teams. I would venture to say it has more powerhouses than any other state; this is why Michigan usually sends a lot of teams to Einstein. (4 2009, 5 in 2005, etc.) But the top 24 teams at MSC are not as good as the top 24 in a moderately strong division in Atlanta, especially considering that the latter has 20 more teams.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Perhaps, after/if other states start using the michigan system, we could have a Championship Midwest Regional or something of that sort, that way the best teams from several states could compete against each other! Someday!

Kind of like Atlanta but just one giant regional!

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I agree with you BUT, I would think that the best strategy would be to defend 469 in the midfield to prevent them from entering their tower loop as well as fielding any balls. As long as 469 is busy with the defending bot, they will be like any other robot on the field. If 469 does happen to enter the towel loop, then you will need to cross the bump and implement the 217 strategy.
My main point was that you can't sacrifice a prolific scorer as 217 to defend 469. In the elimination rounds, it will be doubtful that an alliance will have 3 prolific scorers. So during the selections the role of a strong defensive bot increases.
Running and gunning with teams will cause some pretty exciting matches. But ultimately, defense wins championships. A great team will consist of robots that will play doing what they do best, and IMHO that's two prolific scorers and a robust defense bot.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I believe the idea is that once every state has a State Championship, teams will qualify to a Regional Competition, from which they will have to qualify for Nationals. Obviously that is both far-fetched and, in any case, not happening any time soon, but I think that's what the FRC is trying to get to.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I would like to disagree with your statement. After four years of scouting at Atlanta and two years at Michigan States, I would say that MSC is deeper than any division* in Atlanta. For example, where else would a 2-time district finalist (2619), a district champion (2337) and a powerful scorer that scared every alliance at Troy and Cass Tech (226) would combine to form the 8th alliance. Also, where else would robots that scored around 6-10 balls a match would be the 15th and 16th pick (2612 and 2834).

Also, 971, unfortunately, must have had a bad set of qualifications matches since they were 2-5 during qualifications, so they would not have been noticed by most scouting teams (props to the scouting teams of 111 and 67 for finding a diamond in the rough).

*The only time where I saw a division that rivals the depth of MSC was Galileo '08, where there were easily 10-15 powerhouse teams.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I guess my post was mostly based on last year. For example, team 503 was 12th pick at MSC last year but 16th pick on Newton. The Bees moved down a couple of spots too, even with their (awesome) improved spitter. 247 was the second pick at MSC but the 10th pick on Curie. We saw some teams go up (469, 85) but mostly the trend was downward.

But maybe this year I am completely wrong. Michigan teams are that much better this year, with 33, 27, 2337, and many others rising up from off years to create powerful machines.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Ya, last year we were "Inspired by Hot" to say the least, lol;) . But quite honestly the more I look and think about it, even the michigan districts were stacked. For example, even though 33 is good this year we haven't won a compitition because of the crazy level of compitition we have faced all season. At Kettering we faced 67 and 910, in Troy we faced 217 and 469, and in States we faced 67 and 217. I think this just goes to further show just how competitive/crazy Michigan really is.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Correlation is not causeality. Please investigate years prior to the district system and look at how many Michigan teams performed above average in the championships before suggesting that the /newly/ formed district structure is a cause of Michigan being so competitive.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

With only one year to judge upon, I think it's impossible to be able to ascertain if the district system is making a difference, nor to expect it to make a large difference in its first year. It'll take a little time before most teams in Michigan are unaffected by how things are done out-of-state.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

469 is an amazing machine. I believe that they lawyered their way around an incredible amount of rules, and that their bot isn't in "the spirit of the game". After seeing their robot in action, there were many red flags that went off in my team's heads. We looked up the rules that we thought they were breaking, but couldn't find anything they broke. They definitely read the rules very literally.

At MSC, there were a couple of alliances that were able to shut them down. The key was starving them. Also, if the Thunderchickens had a side-kicker then they would have been able to defeat 469 with ease. They could have just moved back-and-forth, and then hit the ball across the field as soon as they blocked it.

469 is the most hated team in the FRC, but I'd be willing to bet that 469 gets to Einstein. However, I know that I'll be rooting for the other team no matter what.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

217 can move omni-directionally, meaning they could have moved across with their kicker facing the tower. So, they could have kicked the balls away as soon as they blocked it. Maybe the felt their robot would have been too skinny to block all the shots, though.

I'm not sure 469 is the most hated team in FRC...I know I gained even more respect and appreciation of them this year.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

If you hate them that much, would you have declined them if their alliance had picked you with their last pick?

469 is a model FIRST team who has reached a level that we should all be striving for. I do find myself kicking myself for not pushing for a design like theirs. Once I get past that initial embarrassment, I am simply in awe of what they have done this year. I will be rooting for them heavily at championship, except if/when I have to face them. The level of greatness that they have achieved is nothing short of inspiring, and I am in awe of that. It is what Team 1114 strives for every year.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

In my opinion this is how first should be run in 15 years or so:
Each team is placed in a state division based on sponsoring, experience, past wins, and such. The divisions would be like varsity sports today with A-AAAAA.
The state would sponsor the state competition between each team in different divisions. Also the state would by the KOP for each team that wanted to have FIRST as a varsity sport, each additional part would have to be independently funded. The winners and runners up would all qualify for regionals. The regionals would be run directly by first and would have divisions A-AAAAA. The winners and runners up of each division would qualify for nationals. The national winners for only 5A would go to a world championship against the national winners for like Japan and stuff. IT WOULD BE INSANE.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

At least for me, when I was watching the Michigan State Championship, I was extremely impressed with 469's robot. To me, if you build a robot that can execute a dominant or chokehold strategy for the game that is more effective than nearly all other robots (ex. 71 in 2001, 71 in 2002, 1114 in 2008), you have earned your victory. I was rooting for them all throughout the Michigan State Championship.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

As soon as you put teams in divisions based on performance and many other aspects, you lose the sole purpose of FIRST, insperation. Every team will then play the no holds bar, win at all cost, game. The lesser teams will not have an example to aspire to because they will have no direct contact with the AAAAA teams. Using the division system like this would be a terrible idea. This is in no way what ths thread is about though, so I digress.
On the topic at hand, if I were hot I think I would have declined. What would be better for them: another state trophy or knowing that they can topple, arguably, the most likly canidate for a championship win? Easy choice.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Take heart. After all, you're still rookies. Maybe someday you will grow up to be hated too. :rolleyes: {-- smiley just for you Ed}

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

This thread should close with that last post. It can't get any better.:)

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I think you are letting your emotions run away with you.

First, I don't think that 469 "lawyered" their way into anything. The rules are the rules. Not only do the rules as initially published make their design legal, a clarification relatively early by FIRST reaffirmed the legality of their machine. Moreover, there are other machines that do similar things (albeit not as well). Is it the rules we are worried about or just the effectiveness of the implementation?

Second, 469 is in no way the "most hated" team in FRC or anywhere else. Perhaps you are referring to the shouts of joy in the stands at MSC when 469 tipped over or had any sort of hiccup. If so, I think you are confusing relief that there may be SOME hope for us mortals with actual anger at the team.

Do not confuse competitive reactions with actual dislike.

Las Guerrillas was, is and will remain (God willing) one of the fixtures of the Michigan FIRST landscape. Their storied past and their fearsome robots as well as their efforts to advance FIRST in Michigan and around the country/world are legendary.

Here's to Las Guerrillas. Well done, well done, well done.

Joe J.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

503 was the last pick on Archimedes, but they should have been gone much earlier. The scouts there weren't really picking like I thought they would have.

Your other examples are good, but Galileo was pretty stacked last year at the top level.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I would say that is far from the truth. One of their mentors (Dan) provided us a lot of help trying to get our robot running. They, along with many other powerhouses, continuously help out other teams trying to get them working. For that the team as a whole will never be hated for all the help and inspiration they provide. They also help out with a lot of behind the scenes work needed to keep some events going. Would I have like to see them lose? Probably, but thats just the whole underdog. They built a wonderful robot and its amazing to watch. My hats off to them and I wish them the best.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There are MANY, many teams that can step out of Michigan and totally destroy at other regionals. Teams considered average in Michigan can topple the giants of other regionals, and I would love to see more of them come out of Michigan to compete in coming years.

33 is by far one of my favorite teams in FRC btw, and I think if they stepped out of Michigan, they would see a few gold medals of their own, very easily.

Michigan is a scary thing to think about, they breed the world's best FRC teams out there. Other places that are in 2nd place (by a large margin) are IMO, Indiana, those crazy Canucks, and NJ :rolleyes:

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

How can you make such a statement? 469 is one of the most respected team in Michigan. They helped start many teams and helped them look for funding including ours. Their mentors spent a lot of time mentoring us in our rookie year. They gave us material and parts when we were in a rush. They opened their shop to us when we had to work on Sunday to finish our robot. They opened their full size field for us and many other teams to practice. And if you know the history of how this team get started, you would not have said what you said.

I suggest you take back your statement and stop bashing 469. They have an amazing machine which other teams considered building but were not successful. They are very smart in how they implemented it.

Please watch what you say on this forum unless you are not here to make friends, and 469 has a lot of friends.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I'm really upset that one of the only truly innovative robot / strategy combinations I've seen in FRC is seen as lawyering the rules by so many. Keeping up that thinking is why 99% of robots this year look exactly the same.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I agree with you, to every extent. That's exactly what I was thinking.

Cass

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I think another state who is starting to rise in FRC domination would be Texas, they are not really on the same level as MI yet, but maybe soon...?

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Galileo 2009 was an anomaly in many ways. It was deepest division for top-tier robots and was quite deep in the 2nd tier as well. The reason 971 slipped to the last pick of the draft is because they had big problems on Thursday (showed up to 1 practice match at most) & Friday (died repeatedly, was under-performing all day) and didn't show a consistent ability to score until Saturday morning. That said, by the time the dust settled on Galileo it was obvious, to me at least, that they were the 5th or 6th best robot in the division.

I'm with the camp that believes the MI State Championship is more competitive than the divisions in Atlanta. The top tier is probably comparable, but the middle & bottom are much better in MI.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I agree with this post.
The MSC championships caliber is above the level of other regionals, and at the level of CMP but NOT above.
The difference as noted is that there are a lot more teams at CMP then MSC.
Many good teams wont make eliminations as it is close to a 3:4 chance of NOT making it. Its unfortunate, but that's how good (and a lot of) the top teams from everywhere, will make this true.
Teams like 25, 71, 111, 254, 330, 968, 987, 1114, 1717, 2056, etc. could have easily been selected for eliminations at MSC and very possible that more than half the list could have been in the top 8 during the seeding matches.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

This is true, however, all that matters is the top tier, as only the top 24 make it, and that's very small compared to how many per division.

I guess the question is what defines a more competitive regional?

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I respectfully disagree. Michigan has MANY great teams and no other state comes even close, especially this season. I would rank California as the next best (in terms of #s).

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

California may have the next largest number of teams, but they also have more teams than Michigan. In that way, they may not be the second highest 'robot-quality per team' state. Also, with Michigan averaging 3 teams in the Einstein Finals since 2004, I don't think any other state or country (besides the US [duh]) really comes all too close. Of course, there's many ways to judge quality (i.e. Michigan, New York, and Ohio each have 2 CCAs), but in most respects there's little to no match.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Just to clarify, California has more teams:
CA: 153 teams
MI: 140 teams
Even though it is hard to find on FIRST's Redesigned site the team/event map is still there

You are correct that quantity does not equal quality. MI is definitely the top state and it is not even close. Really you need to compare MI to regions. Is MI better than the rest of the Midwest? Now that is a tougher question. Where do New England, Mid Atlantic, South East, South West, West, Canada and other counties fit in? It is really all a matter of opinion.

Now as for the comparison to CMP. I believe that independent of divisions the top 96 (24*4) elim bots at CMP are on average better than the top 24 at MSC. This should make for better eliminations as the top tiers are deeper. Now throw in divisions and depending on the luck of the draw there pretty much will be at least 1 division that the the top 24 can be weaker than MSC. Divisions may also break pairings of outstanding individual teams (ie if you truly believe that 1918 & 469 or 67 & 217 is the best possible pairing it may not be possible at CMP but if it is can they can probably get a more accomplished 3rd bot).

Now where MSC is far ahead of CMP is in the qualification rounds. The middle and lower tiers are higher quality bots at MSC. All of the 65 teams at MSC qualified based primarily on their robot performance in 2 district events. At CMP a max of 141 (3 * 43 regionals + 12 FIM) of ~ 348 teams qualified based their robot performance at a regional this year. The rest can get in based on awards, open registration, HOF, etc... which doesnt necessarily indicate robot performance. It is even less than 141 robot performance qualifiers because teams win multiple regionals. There is no way (points system) for teams to qualify on robot performance without winning a regional, leaving strong double finalists like 987 out. A good # of the teams at CMP dont have elim experience this year. This dilutes the talent in any given qualifier. The amazing qualifier matchups like at MSC will fewer and farther between at CMP. Also it seems the MI teams used good qualifier strategy, which lead to higher scoring, more exciting matches. Hopefully, a higher percentage of teams at CMP will employ good qual strategy than at some regionals.

Fortunately, the new seeding system (post TU16 I think it is doing a great job of ranking the top bots high) and atleast one more match per team should result in much better CMP seeding than usual. In previous years, a surprise #1 in at least 1 division has been the norm. I'm definitely looking forward to CMP elims. Of course as usual the CMP & MSC competitive levels will be trumped by IRI :D

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Sorry, I thought you were talking about after they deployed. If we are talking about them not getting into position is the first place, I obviously agree that a great pusher would have the best chance of delaying their deployment.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

That's what I intended to say, I promise. I was having a durrr moment.

When making an argument, you must have a solid point, then use the assumption of that point to make your next point. The above is not a solid point. Now, I can't claim it's one way or another, neither from data nor from experience, but just because you think it and have minimal evidence doesn't mean it's true.

Personally, in most years I would be unsure about comparative quality. However, this year I think Michigan is having an above average season. This year, I believe that MSC finals could match Einstein semifinals or even finals. Where else do you get an 18-18 tie, with one robot on each alliance playing defense?

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

I know its not a solid point just my opinion/prediction. We are all just sharing opinions thats why I qualify it as my belief (others are free to disagree). Often if you dont throw something like IMHO or I believe in then you get someone posting something like "you dont know that" which is true but is moot because no one really knows. Of course your response is much better reasoned and worded, but you also qualify all your statements with "personally", "I think" etc... which is not a solid point as you correctly pointed out. My opinions are based on observations from 2 regionals attended and watching multiple webcasted regionals at once on the other weeks including most of MSC and experience in FIRST that is humble compared to many on this forum.

So since we are both just sharing opinion lets compare. We both agree that MSC is better than any other regional by a good margin. We disagree about whether the MSC elim field is better than the CMP elim field which happens over a week from now in an ever evolving game. My opinion is that the CMP quals will not be as good as MSC because the elim level talent is spread out and I believe good high scoring qual mathces (combined score is a good metric) requires 6 quality bot and good qual strategy that is more prevalent in MI. However, I believe that all divisions will seed well so that most divisions will field a better elim group than MSC. It will still be basically a matter of opinion if the elim field is better because there is very few metric you can use to compare. Combined score is not a very good metric because different effective strategies can produce varying scores, however tracking MI robot performance might be good.

Everything is opinion because we cant produce any good stats to compare regionals. We have combined scores and OPR but those are regional specific and hard to normalise. The graph of regionals is probably not interconnected enough (particularly with MI teams playing at very few outside events) to for a good Elo style rating system .

As for the MSC finals they were epic and I dont know if Einstein will produce a series with that entertainment value of rubber match in final 4. However, MSC finals a poor example when discussing depth of an elim field, because that is more about the 4 top MSC robots (1918, 469, 67, & 217) with very good 3rd partners (2834 & 2612, I'm not going to set Jack up) that no other alliances could beat for in a single match (close but no upsets).

As for 18 - 18 with 1 robot per alliance playing defence that really depends on how you interpret defence. I didnt see any robots that were "only playing defence" (trust me I've seen that enough to know it when I see it) just 6 robots playing good strategic roles in that match. I saw 217 blocking 469's shots then shooting them at their blue goals to be scored. All 6 robots contributed significantly to their alliance score while also contributing in at different levels to the defensive effort. Bravo to all the teams, that is a great way to play the game.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

It's true, there are often much worse cases. It was just a little bothersome that you made further statements based on perviously stated opinion (stated as opinion of course), because while those new opinions are rooted from the previous opinion and are similiarly respectable (by no means am I trying to reject your opinions), they only become more far fetched as they travel along that branch. Like I said, it gets much worse than what you did, and I apologize for the over-criticism. Now, let's get to the real discussion here


Like you said, this base here that we disagree upon is mostly based on opinion more than fact. After a few years of having an MSC, we may be able to judge this better. As the rest of the country and world gets better, Michigan may begin to fade, expecially as many teams are losing sponsors and may begin to fold. On the other hand, Michigan may continue this and last year's impressive performance, with less financial issues with the lower-cost districts, and newer teams being consistent powerhouses. In this, perhaps the best answer is "Time will tell."


Like you said, strategy makes a huge difference in scores. In the earlier districts in Michigan, teams were playing a lot of defense, and though scores were somewhat higher than other regionals, they were not significantly so. However, it seemed that as the season moved on, defense became less prevalent, though it stayed at about the same level in regionals elsewhere. At the MSC, there were very, very few robots that truly only played defense, even in a single match. Because every robot had to earn their place, every robot had mroe than one ability, from good ball control and kicking, to great defense, to being able to easily suspend other robots. because of that, scores quite skyrocketted.

I'm by no means trying to say that this is an example of a regular match or even an average finals match-up. They were quite spectacular, and I just hope they'll continue to live up to this new bar.

I interpreted 217's play as mainly blocking shots, and secondarily clearing balls to avoid them from being scored by 2834, but again, that could just as well be seen as half defense and half offense. There was no absolute role played by any robot, and in that way it was a great match to watch to see some master strategy and gameplay taking place.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

No disrespect intended, but not even close. TX team numbers are rising fast due to the infusion of some big funding. However, once you get past the top level teams in TX, you'll find many that are nowhere ready to be competitive with even the "average" MI team. For example, I believe in Houston there were a large number of teams not yet fully inspected (30+ I think, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong) on Friday AM at the event. Perhaps teams numbers and excitement are growing in TX, but many of these new teams are a long way from being long-term sustainable let alone competitive like we see in MI.

One thing I know for sure in TX - the "top level vets" are working their butts off to support all of the new FRC participants in their home state and I applaud their example ... and I pray, with more grant funding expanding things further next year, that the same amount of veteran teams there can continue to provide the level of FRC support the whole state will need.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

To add to what Rich is saying, I think it is important for teams to be able to compete to the best of their ability. Sometimes, that can mean playing against a deeper field of competent and robust drive teams/robots. Usually when the competition gets deeper/tougher, the teams can rise or be pulled up to the occasion. With Lone Star running so deep with teams who are still learning the basics in FRC and competition, they aren't well prepared as teams at this stage. If there were more "top level vets" that competed at Lone Star or were of the region, the process would advance quicker.

A few teams in Texas have learned the benefits of traveling outside the state to other competitions over the years. They have also learned the benefits of attending competitive off seasons. The majority of teams in Texas are still not at the point of considering a 2nd competition or traveling to other competitions, and off seasons aren't even a blip on the radar. Hopefully, teams will learn that if they want to deepen their competitive abilities, they will have to consider more options and take advantage of them. They will also have to deepen their knowledge in the technical and the non-technical aspects of running a competitive team.

I also think the competitions, themselves, need to stay sharp and stay abreast of what it takes to run a top notch and professional event. Each year brings change and opportunity, not only to teams but to events and to the program, itself.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

Wow. I can't believe I missed this thread.

Regarding the original question, we were fortunate enough to be in that position. We had heard rumors that 67 & 217 were going to pair up - passing up on 469. I was never convinced. We were advised by several people that we should pick 67 and then 217 in the hope that they would turn us down, just to break them up. That wasn't our style. Last year we lost to 67 & 217 in the finals and we wanted a rematch. A chance like this doesn't come around every day, and we were wise enough to take it.

When it looked like we would seed #1 we started talking to 469, and our scouts got together to compare notes. Having 469 as a partner completely changed what we were looking for in a third partner. While most teams were looking for defense, 1918 was going to play center zone support and we needed a front zone striker. That is probably why 2834 was still around.

We were struggling with overheated motors by the time we got to the finals and we really struggled to feed many balls into the loop. Our driver ran a good balance between trying to move balls and trying to slow 67 down. 2612 made every move a lot of work for us.

469 is a great team with a great robot. I have a lot of respect for them on and off the field. We never got to play against them in quals. Perhaps we will in Atlanta. I think they can be stopped by the proper combination of robots and a bit of luck. Who knows. Just like they do a lot better with proper help, it will take an alliance to stop them - not any single, great robot.

Regarding the depth & quality of teams in MI compared to other areas in the country, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. There is definitely a large core of great teams here that improves the quality of every other team that comes into contact with them. However, the FIM format helps us out a lot. If you look at how seeding scores improved week to week at the district events, it is apparent that the same teams finished the season a lot better than they started it. That pattern ought to repeat anywhere the teams get a real chance to develop their skills. For this year, however, I think the rest of the country will be in a world of hurt in Atlanta (with notable exceptions, of course). We'll see in a week.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

What I am going to say deviates from the original post but I wanted to reply to something Wayne said. I want to explain why we designed our robot that way.

Some time in Week 2 or 3, after some discussions with Jim Zondag from Team 33 who mentors us, I came to the conclusion that the great teams will want to play midfield or start in far zone to kick the 3 balls and move to midfield. My predictions were correct. This is similar to real soccer where if you dominate the midfield, you will most likely win.

My philosophy for our young team at this point is to design a robot to be the best supporting robot and not try to do everything. We wanted to help our alliance partners win matches. This worked really well last year when we concentrated on delivering empty cells. We were able to make a difference in many matches and helped our alliance partners win. It worked so well that we were alliance captain #8 at the State Championship. However we realized that we were lacking a critical component which is to collect balls so we put it in with Team 33's help during offseason before going to MARC.

This year, in order to try to get picked in the elimination round, I decided to design a robot to play striker in the near zone to support the good robots playing midfield. I designed the kicking angle to kick low and not try to clear a long distance. I put in soft kick for very near shots and regular kick for further out. We concentrated on ball control to quickly acquire balls. We also realized early on that there is no shame in pushing balls in when you can push 2 or 3 at a time at close to 100% accuracy. That is why we can score 8 balls a match. Our robot can actually go to midfield and score from there. We did that quite a few times when our partners were not able to feed us balls. Most teams probably didn't know this about us unless they have very detail match scouting data.

During alliance selection, we were passed up by all the teams, partly because we were ranked very low and partly because they were looking for defensive robots. Throughout district events and qualifying at States, we never played defense in the far zone so teams could not tell what we can do. When the alliance selection got down to #15 pick and Team 67 and 217 picked 2612, I thought we should just pack up. I thought I made the wrong decision to design the robot to play near zone. Fortunately the combination of 1918 and 469 needed a near zone striker and we were the best robot other than 910 (from scouting statistics) for that role.

We did contribute to the alliance. I posted the videos on vimeo and you can count how many balls we cleaned up including the winning shot in match 4 of the finals as time expires. Despite one team calling us nothing more than a pushing cart, we can actually shoot from far away if we need to.

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

This post made my day. If I were in your shoes, I would have done the exact same thing.
We were #1 twice this season. When it came down to making the 1st choice, it was about taking the best robot that complemented our style of play as striker. And never about weakening the other alliance.
Congrats on the win! Its not everyday a 67/217 alliance gets beat.:ahh:

Re: Sacrificing a State Championship for the Cause???
 

After watching videos of your matches, you certainly did contribute. Pushing cart or not, the bottom line is you scored enough to get a blue banner!
Teams that focus on striking will definitely get picked in ATL.

If an all-around robot is an alliance captain, I'd predict that they take the best all-around bot with their first pick followed by a pure striker in the 2nd round. I highly doubt you'll find 3 excellent all-around bots on one alliance, even at CMP, and the fact that its not imperative to have one.