How do you scout Defense?
 

My team has used a scouting system at both our districts and MSC that is basically centered around offensive attributes; it has worked fairly well. We have used all quantitative data, which is the way we would like to keep it, but we are having trouble with generating a good 2nd pick. We would like to add quantitative defensive catagories to the system, but are unsure what catagories we could use and have the numbers not be based off each scouters perception. Any ideas?

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

The problem is that it depends on the team they are defending. Defending HoT is totally different than defending 397.

Defended this team #### to only scoring this many balls ## then compare that to the average number that that team scores? If it is significantly less then you know they are a good defender. If there was a robot problem on the offensive team it should be noted so that their already lower score for the match is considered.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

When looking at defensive scouting, there are defensive oriented robots, and then there are robots that would be good at defense.

Like for example, there is the general mean bot that just sits in the home zone and pushes around robots. Then there's the robot with a mediocre offense, but a drive train that can easily push around anyone.

Two key examples. In the MSC finals, 217 played defense while 67 and the 3rd bot (sorry I can't remember their team number) played offense (to some degree). In Palmetto finals, we choose team 1398 to primarily aid in defense and home zone clean up. Both robots had VERY strong drive trains and BOTH robots played exceptional matches.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

Wait? There was another robot besides Hot and the Chickens?

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

I realize you might not be intending something as extremly rude as you have stated, but this kind of thing bugs me. If you have ever been there (as the 3rd pick or as the alliance captain), then you would know that the 3rd pick is the make or break of an entire alliance. This is a TEAM game. The most complete TEAM will win more matches.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

For this game, we look for two main kinds of defense:

Classic: You know, just making sure robots don't let other robots move/do much. We watch for how they either pin/get between the robot and the goal. We don't have an exact method for this, but we normally end up comparing the score of the defended team v. how good a scorer the other robot is. If it's normally a good scorer but didn't get a good score overall, they it was defended well on. 839 and 173 did this very well at CTR.

The other way is kind of an indirect defense. It was the kid we wanted in other robots. We were looking for robots that would basically just get balls away from the other robots. They didn't really need to keep the other robot away, just make sure the balls were sent to the scoring zone. This required strong and smart midfield play. For this, we basically timed how quickly they could take balls from either tower back to the scoring zone, as well as how many they let pass. Also, if they played the far zone, how smartly they chose which balls to send over, and again how fast.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

See? Kids never can spot sarcasm til puberty kicks in. Yet another reason to advocate the installation of a Sarcasm Button here.
The team he is talking about that no one else is, is his own so he's being ironic as well.
Unless you are one of the elite teams the fanbase is so in love with around these pages you're most likely going to be forgotten outside of your own area. I wouldn't make too big a deal of it.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

I realize you might not be intending something extremely obtuse as you have stated. As a matter of fact, I was there. ;)

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

Scouting for defense is tough as there really is no good quantifiable measure. As stated above, you could compare the offensive team's average goals with how many they scored under defense, but with a small sample size, I don't think that is a good measure. There are also too many factors invovled (did the offensive team play offense the entire time, did the offensive team have enough balls to score, did the defender play defense the entire time, did the defender play defense on more than one team).

As a team that has picked two defensive robots as 3rd picks this year, we have focused on driving ability and drivetrain. For driving ability it bascially comes down to how well they do what they are trying to do. Hopefully, the team plays defense in the qualification matches so you can get a chance to see how they do it. If not, then you have to look at other measures of how well they drive. At midwest (which was a very shallow regional), we actually looked at how many goals teams scored, under the belief that you have to be decent at driving to push balls into the goal. Any team that had any questions/negative statements about their driving on our scouting sheets, were just about eliminated from getting picked.

For drivetrain, it is a lot more cut and dry. I almost always favor power over speed and manuverability. Obviously, you cannot be a snail out there, but if the offensive robot can push you out of the way, you cannot be that effective. My basic criteria is "Can a team catch and stay with an offensive robot. And once they are there, can they do damage?" Most of the time the teams that have traction wheels are best.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

This year the best kind of defense is to have a robot that can kick all the balls out of the far zone. That is much better than a robot that only gets in the way of the opposition for two reasons.

1. Your opponent can't push balls in that just got kicked down field.
2. You can't score something that is down in the far zone.

So 1718s offensive rankings are pretty useful. You just have to put kicking balls fast out of the zone as more of a priority then aiming and scoring.

(also great job 1718 you guys were fantastic partners, we almost had 67, 217, 2612 in the semis!)

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

I'll remember 2612 Jack, at least until I get to Atlanta and a new set of finals! You were in my corner most of the time scoring goals.

But as to the question, if you watch 217 play defense, and not just against 469, then you have the characteristics, as has been stated. They are extremely tough, low CG, quick back and forth, and top it off by being able to grab a ball and fire it out of the zone. And of course good driving and coaching (which without, the bot would be far less effective).

Of course a team and bot like this will likely never be second pick but I think it proved to be a wise choice to have a strong offensive team playing defense in the several occasions they did.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

As helpful as qualitative data is, you will not make good defensive picks using anything but your smartest minds watching the field and figuring out what people are doing.

If you're looking for "who pushes the best" or "how long a pin they have" or whatnot, you're not looking for people who play smart defense. Sometimes the smartest defensive move is not to move, something many drivers don't seem to fathom. Blocking a goal or herding a ball is often better than trying to push or pin. (See QF1 and QF2 at WPI for a direct comparison of these methods :) )

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

This implies that pushing defense around is not smart defense. After watching 171 in Wisconsin and 2041 in Minnesota, pushing defense is certianly effective. Obviously, this is not the only way to play defense, but it is the way that requires certian traits of the robots. Anyone can sit infront of the goal or herd a ball, but not everyone can push and pin. The alliance partners can tell a robot with 8 traction wheels to sit in front of the goal and not move, but cannot tell a robot with a mechanum drive to push other robots around.

I think this just underscores the point that you cannot pick teams just based off one thing. You don't just pick a team based on the fact they have scored the most goals nor do you pick a team just because they can push anyone. There are many many factors that need to be weighed.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

I would like to second this; in particular, I cite a qualification match my team was in at DC. We are a defensively designmed machine, and as such we typically played in the third zone. With DC as a week one regional, we experienced the infamous losses of connection and thus frequently lost all control of our machine at random during a match. During the particular match I'm thinking of, we lost comm about 20 seconds into the match, but had managed to wedge the balls against the wall and park right in front of the goal, allowing us to sit there providing airtight defence. I specifically remember this match as being hilarious afterwards, as our teammate complimented our driving, despite the fact that we were unable to move for the majority of the match. :cool:

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

A sharp eye, a strong idea of what you're looking for, and a little bit of luck. Most importantly, reasonable expectations of what they should be doing within your strategy.

No offense to any teams, but most "defensive" teams are a dime a dozen. There will be a couple of standouts in terms of defense, but they'll be easy to pick out. The next group of teams will be almost identical in terms of what they're going to be able to give you on the field, and I highly suggest that you pick based on reliability and robustness (which is pretty hard to scout effectively).

The damning factor in picking many teams is identifying how they play against the higher caliber of competition in the elimination rounds. I've seen many picks, including some of my own, end up being the downfall of an alliance because they can't hang in against better opponents. They may have chewed up the weaker foes in the qualification rounds, but they simply can't keep up with the faster, more agile, more reliable, and/or better driven teams in the eliminations. If you notice that a team on your pick list struggled (in whatever given role) against an elite team in a match or two, it should send up a warning flag.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

[quote=BJC;947922]This year the best kind of defense is to have a robot that can kick all the balls out of the far zone.

I agree with BJC. The faster you can get the balls out the better for your defense and your offense. I have seen many robots block the opponent effectively only to have another come into the zone and score the balls that have accumulated into the unblocked goal.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

Just to keep me sane, let me recap. Some of you are saying that kicking balls out is the best defense. Others are saying there is nothing you can keep track of with numbers about defense, and yet others are saying to compare avg balls scored to what was actually scored in the match for the team that is being defended. Did I miss anything?

Oh and Lil Lavery, if you think defensive teams are a dime a dozen, then you obviously havn't been paying close enough attention. Picking the right defensive bot has made and broken many finals alliances. These teams were diamonds in the rough at the districts my team has been at, and we are kicking ourselves for not picking them.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

It depends on the type of robot you use, and your game strategy. For example we play offense so we work around that. Anyways things to scout for would be speed, sturdienss, manuverability, how they move balls across the field, the drivers themselves, what the robot was built for, also add on qualities that your drives feel are necessary in a defender.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

I totally agree with you as our teams scouting captain and strategist the 3rd pick can make or break the alliance. And you have to pick the right defensive bot that works best for you because my idea for defense is a bot that can keep up with the lead offensive bot and to be able to push balls in occasionally thats my idea

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

Our team has found no reliable way to scout defense. I know several team's that scout defense based on their scouters ranking them, but that leaves grey area in your data. You can't be sure that 2 people would rank the same robot the same "defensive ranking score". I think the best way to scout defense is just to have someone out there watching and taking notes. Do they consistently play defense, or just when they get stuck with it? And how well do they play defense when they do? The only way not to get mixed results from this is if a singular person, or a small group of 2-3, watches the matches and takes notes.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

I often lean far to the side of relying on subjectivity but I have so often seen decisions made on complete sets of data that do not correlate with the results of the decision.

There may be something you can keep track of that would correlate to the effectiveness of a particular robot but it would be far too complex and there is not enough input for it to be significant, IMHO.

Assume the case of the great defensive robot, fast, durable, good traction and great driving team. They may bang around a single offensive robot with 3 balls in the zone, keep them from scoring, yet leave them and race to the other side to stop a midfield shooter who is lining up a shot. Meanwhile the offensive robot can't even push the balls in unprotected in the time they were gone. Yet if that single offensive robot was a good scorer, maybe they don't race to block the single midfield shot. How can that excellent coaching decision be ranked?

Too many variables in the game play and quality of robots in an average game. I agree that a person or small group should become qualified to make subjective decisions on defensive capabilities.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

Team 997 Mentor here,

In NW Regional we won, picking first in qualifying and choosing the #26 and #55 seeded bots out of a field of 61.

Unheard of perhaps, but our scouting said these were the best bots who fit our "quantified" scouting system.

Scouting was fuzzy logic based. Logging bot attributes and then weighting them for each position in an Excel spreadsheet.

Data logged for a defender were: Clearing balls in autonomous, how many times blocking forwards who controlled balls, clearing balls in teleop, kicking two bumps, being able to go to mid field, knocking over opponents. I think there was another one but I don't have the scouting with me. (We also logged offensive data but was not weighted heavily for defensive bot)

These were the attributes we were looking for in a goalie and we were flabbergasted when we won based on the seeding of the picks.

I was very proud of our alliance captain for going with the scouting report versus picking higher seeds. It took guts to pass on the "big name" teams to go with the hard work that scouting had put in. It really pulled the team together.

I think this is 997's strength. We are a way way small market team (Motto since inception has been: Poverty in Motion). Can only afford one regional this year (and last) but we have won, from the first or second seeded position, 3 or the last 6 Regionals we have attended.

The reason is scouting and teamwork. We choose good partners and we play well with others. Also having a tank bot and driving well go a long way.

al

"Not to know but through search to find a way"
"If you are going to battle, best to have a tank on hand"

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

I think you misunderstood Sean. He said there are a few elite defenders that stand out. The rest of the (average) defenders are similar in defensive skill and he suggests you use reliability to differentiate them.

The supply of this tier of non-elite elim-worthy defenders typically exceeds the demand (remaining slots) at most events. That is why the second round of drafts are very unpredictable. If you work on preparing a list for your team, you probably watch each draft pick and at least once think "Team XXXX is good, but I had Team YYYY a little higher". Chances are when it come to your second pick you will have 2 bots that you rated about the same to choose from. Occasionally there is that "I can't believe they are still available, steal of the draft pick:ahh: " (see Bedford Express in Detroit or my favourite 56 in Philly '09) but usually it is just a another pick. A quality 3rd bot is important for any alliance, no one is disputing that. However, you don't need to hit a home run with that pick to win the regional.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

Look, I've been doing this for years. I attended four regionals in person this year, competing in two of them. I know what I'm talking about.

There are always a couple standout defensive teams, but if you can't pick them out, you've got some serious scouting issues. They're the teams who wreak havoc on even the best scorers, and it's pretty easy to figure out who they are.

Past them, it becomes a very hairy and the field has tons of parity. It doesn't take a lot of unique devices to fill the "typical" physical defensive role. Any team with good/experienced drives, a robust drivetrain, and some basic intuition of how to play defense can fill this role. Yes, some will be better than others, but differences between these will often be minute.

However, you need reasonable expectations and good instruction for these teams. There are styles of defense for fast and nimble bots and there are styles of defense for powerful and forceful bots. Don't try and make one play the other style. And don't expect any of these "pack members" to shut down elite scoring machines.

Most importantly, look at the strategy involved here. Many of the best alliances aren't just sticking their 3rd pick in the defensive zone and leaving them alone. The best alliances know what roles each of their bots can fill, and build the best alliance strategy around all three robots (even if it's not an individual team's preferred role).

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

Defense is a fun subject. :D I've found that almost any team can play defense, but very few can do it well.

This year, we picked a defensive robot for our Alliance in Philadelphia based on how well they were able to play defense on us. When first hand knowledge of a defender isn't available (I.E. we didn't play against any) then we go look at who defended powerhouses in the most effective and least risky way possible. I say least risky because defense can go bad really fast, and a defender can rack up a lot of penalties and cards pretty quickly if they over do it.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

1. (From the stands) Figure out how well they can control their robot.
-A robot that looks well controlled and drives the way you think it should (qualitative), or how long it takes them to accomplish (simple) tasks (quantitative).

2. (From the pits) Figure out their gearing situation, their max theoretical speed.
-If they have a "slow" robot, they will not be good at defense.

3. (From the pits) Figure out what type of wheels they have.
-What style of defense do you need? Do you need them to pin other robots around and act like a "bully", or do you need them to play a different style?

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

I don't know that you would be able to quantify this to the degree they are looking for. Granted you can quantify it, whether or not you would get a good out put for a statistical analysis on defensive robots is another question.

You could look at a robots power output and the strength of their push and shove and what their speed can do in terms of how many blocks and blocked points they can output in a match. In terms of creating good defensive output in an analysis, I know you are only looking for quantitative, but in terms of qualitative you could do, can a robot block 2 robots or 1 robot. A yes would be 2 robots with a 1 value and a no would be a 0 value in your data. Back to talking in terms of qualitative you could look at whether the robot can score from the defensive zone, if so how many points a match.

Just a few ideas for you, as you can tell analysis and databases are my thing. My final project for a class is creating a monster scouting database. The professor is going to think I am nuts but that's fine by me, everyone calls me the crazy blonde anyway. I hope this helps, and was just my two cents. :)

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

I wouldn't consider this defense. I do agree that having 3 teams just kick ball the close zone can be the preferred strategy, but I wouldn't consider it a 'defensive strategy'. Like, I wouldn't consider Otis Smith and the Giants offense that held the ball for over 40 minutes in Super Bowl 25 'defenders'. Yes, their brilliant ball control was sucessful in keeping the Bills no-huddle offense off the field for most of the game, but didn't defend anyone. If a team is looking for the 3rd robot to play defense, they are looking for robots to fulfill a different strategy: a defensive one, not a ball-controlled offensive approach.

Several people have hinted at or said that defense is only for their opponents' close zone. So, far this year we have won matches having our defenders starting and playing in each zone. If anything, I think we have had the most sucess when trying to keep an elite robot in their far zone.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

After reading some posts, it seems that some people are mistaking this thread for "how do you scout teams to play in the far zone" (see posts #10, 16, and 22) instead of "how do you scout teams that play defense".

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

I think "defense" is poorly defined. All robots should be playing defense under my definition, which is anything that slows or denies a scoring opportunity for the other alliance.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

I think they are not mutually exclusive terms. In the truest sense, defense is anything that inhibits the opponents from scoring.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

I'd like to throw in: talk to people on the team. I throw it in every year, and it is effective if done right. Just rarely done right. Of course, this is just half the story. But it helps to fill out the questions on individual matches. Most teams will tell you why they struggled in a match. It might have been the "elite" team or it might have been overall teamwork of the alliance. There might be something you haven't considered. However, you should really send one of your scouts to the pits to talk to the teams. If you use much more your being wasteful, but one is well worth it. Keep the rest in the stands getting data.

Now, I fully expect the usual 5 disagreements to follow. It happens every year, but I still think that it is a valid method that should always be brought up since most overlook it.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

But, teams that play in the far zone don't have to play defense and teams that play defense don't have to stay in the far zone.

I'm also not sure I agree with your definition of defense, either. Like my previous football example, a run-focused, ball controlled offense does inhibit the opponent from scoring, but I've never heard anyone call it defense. As would rebounding in basketball is not generally called defense. In my opinion, defense is an action where the main purpose is to not let the opponent score points. Thus, clearing balls from the far zone is not defense because its main purpose is to score or get balls into scoring position. There are many actions or stratigizes that does have some aspect of defense, but I wouldn't call them "defensive strategies".

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

At CMP, I think the best defenders will be different than what was scouted at average regionals.
A simple back and forth motion to prevent scoring was enough to win regionals. Definitely not the case at CMP during eliminations.
The best defender in the far zone, MUST effectively grab and shoot balls out of the far zone quickly while trying to play defense. Or better yet, as was displayed in the MSC or certain other regionals, the best defenders played the middle zone, consistenly passing balls to the near zone.
"Instead of blocking you, we will outscore you.":D

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

Glenn, you are exactly right. Clear the balls and the opposing team will have nothing to score.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

First, I definitely question your assertion that the "main purpose" of clearing balls is to get balls into scoring position. That may be one purpose, but I'd be willing to say that, for many teams, it's not the primary purpose. Especially when facing opponents who are great in the offensive zone (or 469).

Secondly, you can disagree all you want. I don't care what you consider to be "defense" or not (especially in terms of only somewhat equivalent sports analogies). I don't care if I'm playing excellent "defense" or a "ball possession offense" if my opponent's score is low. They both accomplish the same thing, and in my book, it's defense.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

I think it is obvious that we will have to agree to disagree on a minor difference of opinion. I certainly agree that at the end of the day (or match) it is about scoring more than your opponent and there are many ways to do that. It doesn't matter if you call it 'defense', 'ball possession offense', "all offense", "rush", or whatever. I think we both understand and agree on what good strategies are but just label differently. No worries.



I think that the original intent of the thread was to discuss how to scout for the 'traditional' ( pushing, screening, blocking, pinning...) defense. I'm not sure ball possession and clearing fulfill the critera. If it is included in scouting for defense, than I think keeping track of balls advanced is clearly the best option.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

Which is exactly why we picked you.:D
....and the results were great.

Re: How do you scout Defense?
 

Funny, I came here to post the exact same thread.

What we will be implementing for Atlanta is a scale of 1 to 3 on how defensive they are. Last year, we tried counting pins and everything (they were more applicable then), but of course it was extremely tedious.