Regarding The cRio
 

http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/203964

I am assuming that is the cRio that we get... Is it legal to used a 2nd crio on your robot? Its a PowerPC based controller... Thats interesting isnt it? My mentor said that he was willing to buy another cRio for me to practice on, so why not use 2 on the robot?

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Umm, i dont know. i do have a quick question for you though. Are you prepared to have two robots to program for? They cannot have any communication with either eachother or the world, and there is only one gaming adapter. At most, i'd use an arduino, but a whole other cRIO, i wouldn't.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

My mentor thinks its most wise to work on the processor the final robot would have... I want to use 2 cRios on one robot because I think a ATmegaa284p won't have enough juice to run the image processing from multiple sensors very efficiently...

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

At minimum, I'd imagine this would violate <R22>. I'm not aware of any other rule that would specifically prohibit this, but I'm also not aware of any reason to use more than one cRIO on one robot.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Hmmmm...

That's what the competition manual says; I'm not sure how to interpret it or how you plan to use the other cRIO.

Edit: And also <R22> as mentioned above.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

I have a theory that you can use the port 2 ethernet port and connect the crio from the port one. Some one end of the enternet goes to the # 1 port then into the #2 port of the other and the camera goes on the 2nd post of #1

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

But technically it is a KOP thing... Just multiple:D

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

As far as communications go, the second ethernet port on the cRio (one that communicates to FMS) can be used to talk to the second cRio.

Emphasis mine.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Its also probably possible to hook up another microcontroller as a Digital I/O

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

The first cRIO would come from the KOP. The second would be a COTS COMPONENT.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Check the rules for custom electronics. If it meets all those rules you are ok.

BUT It is probably way too late to do this for 2010 and 2010 rules don't apply for 2011...

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Which is correct, but if you have an ethernet port on your microcontroller (or 2nd cRio) why wouldn't you want to get 1 or more megabytes per second throughput?

Going through GPIO is going to be slower then ethernet.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Dont the general rules stay the same year by year?

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Nope, in general they are similar but they do change.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

If I have an ethernet port on the microcontroller (not a 2nd cRio) where would the camera plug in if the 2nd port is used up? Not using it on the microcontroller, its too much for it

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

According to this Q&A post : http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=14423

Now keep in mind that rules change from year to year, these are only this year's.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

:D A network switch! Never thought of that

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

If I recall correctly theres a rule somewhere restricting the amount you can spend on a single electronic components. I think it was $400, so that excludes the cRio (which you can get one at a discount from NI for something like $1500 I think).

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

I don't think you can count an extra cRIO as KOP component. Also, would the cost be considered 750 or 1400 dollars (the offseason rate vs full)

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

http://www.robotshop.com/roboard-rb-...omputer-2.html

this sounds like a better investment: its cheaper (way cheaper) and its C++

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Just putting this out there, I've been an inspector at 3 regionals(WPI, Boston, and CT) and the inspection checklist has always included this line:

The way I read that is that you can't use more than 1(even if cost wasn't an issue). So as an inspector, without seeing an update or Q&A post specifically allowing it, I would say no to that idea.

-Eric

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Though the little battery may have to go (even though its current output is inconsequential)

rule <R01> and <r40>

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

It's similar to what we get, but not the same. Here's what we get: http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/206678

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

"• Power input range of 6V to 24VDC"

But the battery is a 12v, so it would work

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Has a battery, not legal. Extra Crio costs too much. Whats wrong with the Gumstix and Beagleboard proposed on the other thread?

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

:o Never really looked into it


edit: you can always get teh battery plug thing at radio shack and rig it up to the power distribution board


Looked into the beagle, I like it, but its purpose is too general, the other link has robotics in mind, so it has pwm out puts and stuff, but this does not. Will ahve a meeting with Mentors, Programmers and electronics

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

If it has a battery then it need/wants power while there is no power on the PD board. It is probably a BIOS battery so you probably need it to boot.

As I suggested on the other thread read about the Adam Bots CoProcessor. Although it is geared for the 2007 IFI system, it should give you an appreciation for the task of developing a coprocessor and some info on using Gumstix form a team that has done it before.

You cant legally use a coprocessor to control anything directly <R03>. The Crio still has to set all outputs to speed controllers etc... You can use the coprocessor to communicate with the Crio via Ethernet Port 2, RS 232, SPI, CAN etc... Please read the manual particularly the robot section before buying anything. Unlike the battery and the cost accounting issues, <R03> no custom circuit (coprocessor) affecting outputs is a straightforward basic rule that should have known if you read the manual.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

;) The judges don't have to find out about the BIOS battery, they probably won't care...

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

No.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Actually reread the rules:
"The only legal primary source of electrical energy on the ROBOT during the competition is one MK ES17-12 12VDC non-spillable lead acid battery, OR one EnerSys NP 18-12 battery, as provided in the 2010 KOP. Teams may use other equivalent 12V batteries during development, testing and practice MATCHES. However, during competition MATCHES only one MK ES17-12 battery OR one EnerSys NP 18-12 battery can be used on the ROBOT."


BIOS is not primary, its a secondary source

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Then there is rule <r42>

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Take a look at <R01> and <R42.A>. This would prohibit a secondary battery.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

:ahh: :mad: Why does FIRST have so strict rules like that... Gah ruins everything


http://www.robotshop.com/ProductInfo...board-computer

that fits the requirements... even though the memory is less than the other one... I still like roboard...

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

We asked at NYC because we happen to have two cRIOs, and alot of spare time. We had a tcp client/server coded out, we where mainly just gunna send printf data to one, and use the serial port as a console output. But the inspector quoted that exact line from the check list, saying you can only have one, not taking into account the max price rule.

However what we did think of, and haven't come across any kind of rule against, is using a usb-serial or a usb-ethernet adapter on the driver station, and putting a crio and power board on you driver station. You could have a perfect scale model of your robot on your driver station, with working motors, and what ever else you could want.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

That won't do any help with processing data from the robot, takes too long to get the data from teh robot to classmate to the replica robot then back to classmate then back to the real robot on the field...

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

How would the classmate send data back to the robot?
The only data the DS software transfers is from the joysticks, not a serial port.

Not to mention having to lug the cRio, power supply, usb to ethernet (or serial) as well as the regular driverstation. It would be heavy. Hope you have strong drivers!

edit: (Sorry about the double post, on very weak wifi)

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Never planed on using to process data on the robot. Only thing we thought of doing with it was having a small version of our arm (before we decided it wasn't worth using) and our kicker at like a 1in = .5ft scale. None of it would be in the least bit necessary, but it would look amazing, and make it easier to visualize whats going on.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have one of those and it's cool so far, now if only I could figure out how to install Linux.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Its just a really small computer, you have to buy the vga port thing though, its like $60

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

The Cmos Battery? Hmm... that does seem to be an issue.:ahh:
Well, I guess we can cross the roboard <rb-100 OR rb-110> off the list :mad:

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

I'm aware of that option, but is that really the onlyway?

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Or in a slightly longer, more informative way:

Yes, you will need the VGA connection to act as a monitor. You use the combination monitor / keyboard to be the main console to program, etc.

Plan B would be to use one of the serial ports as a TTY device. That would only work in a non-Windows OS mode.

They are pretty spiffy boards, but running a full blown OS on them isn't a good idea. Linux, DOS or one of the Embedded Windows is fine, performance for full XP isn't fast.

Good luck!

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Run a text based linux distro or a hacked minimum xps like tinyxp

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Why not just go all out and use http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-228-_-Product .
All youd have to get is a DC laptop chrager with the same specs, and your good to go.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

I don't think putting a computer on teh robot will go well with the teammates... At least for the other boards, it doesnt look anything like a computer, but it is

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Be very careful. I've heard that the motor in the hard drive is considered a motor, and is therefore not allowed to be used on the robot since it didn't come in the kit. Same goes for the fan inside that computer, if there is one. So, you'd need something with a SSD, and that is fanless.

On a completely separate note, you can use USB to attach another simpler board to do IO, if you are having trouble finding a powerful board to use that has good IO. Food for the thought to get you thinking.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

yes, I have the cable to connect the board to my computer for terminal IO, The plan was to create a live usb on either an XUbuntu or windows machine with the Debian (or Ubuntu) i386 image on it. then the instructions I have get fuzzy. I either boot my computer with the live usb, configure the SSH for terminal access, and boot the roboard with it and install the kernel package on the roboard, or I do the same thing but install the kernel before I boot the roboard with it, or I just make the live USB, boot the Roboard and some how do every thing from there with the remote terminal interface. My main issue is the person on my team who is attempting to help me thinks that I know more than I do.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

What I'd do is create a bootable (livecd) image and put it on the USB stick. Your co-processor board would boot up the "livecd" image and start running. You would put a script to run your user code in /etc/rc.local (that script runs after everything is up.) You do have an issue that it takes some time to boot up completely. It "should" be less than the cRio, but your mileage may vary.

Your user code would be the program that runs to do your image processing / sensor processing / etc. The nice thing is that you could write that code in anything (C, Perl, Java, Awk, Cobol, etc.)

You could write on the Host PC and then ssh file transfer down to the coprocessor board. It then becomes the same "code, download, restart, test" cycle you do with the cRio.

Remember Google is your friend. Somebody, someplace at sometime has done something very, very close to what you want to do and has written it up. So don't be afraid to us Google to search it out.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

My mentor pretty much told me that a second PC will not be needed, since the crio is pretty powerful as it is, but I am still keeping the PC idea in mind, the problem is that the usb idea is "fragile". the USB can pop out mid competition, so thats dead. I was thinking of just using a SS drive (no moving parts) instead of HDD, so it can't get messed up as bad

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

It would not be worth the added power. The cRio has so much power, most teams do not get anywhere near fully utilizing the cRio. Plus, using two cRios would be extremely restrictive on the rest of your robot (cost wise).

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Baha, image detection algorithms push the Crio to its limits as is. Anything more advanced is simply impossible.
Right now, I notice the severe lag from doing two or more circle detections per cycle, and this only adds up to about 10-15 times per second.
Does anyone think asking FIRST to ease this restriction concerning BIOS batteries for next year would be option?

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

;) They don't have to know what they don't know... Just enclose it in a regular pc case


edit: Or even more bad $@#$@#$@#, use 1 or more ps3's on board, they are like $300 each, so its legal. Just use a enternet hub and boot up linux on it... BAD $@#$@#$@#!!

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

That's a very neat idea, but really, the Cell is just a CPU on steroids. And thus, it's a CPU which can't compare to a GPU's performance, even though it's easier to code. It's like trying to compare anything to infinity.

Unfortunately, a PC case would probably be a big weight and shock-resistance hassle. These components already have to withstand huge Gforce shocks, even with bumpers. Kudos for the idea, though. That'd be interesting, seeing my neon-blue case on a robot.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Actually coded right, the Cell processor is way more useful than the PS3 RSX (the gpu), it was the only way that Uncharted 2 looked so good, they took some of the GPU work to the cell

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/po...pa-linuxps3-1/

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Don't update your Ps3 then. Linux support just got dropped.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

;) Im aware, gah no PSN for me now

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Why do you interpret it this way?

This part does not disallow the use of a second cRIO, it simply says that 1 must be used on the robot. If two are used on the robot then one is being used on the robot. If the rule said 1 and only 1 cRIO must be used then I would agree with this interpretation.

This also does not specifically prohibit using a second cRIO as a co-processor, If one cRIO is connected to all of the sensors and actuators (with the possible exception of the camera) and the other is connected to the cRIO via the second Ethernet port, and used only to interpret data sent through the ethernet port or gathered by the camera or another sensor attached to the second cRIO's second Ethernet port then this set up would not violate the quoted rule.

Obviously the best way to handle this would be to ask Q&A but If I were to read the rule indicated by the check list:

I would see nothing wrong with using a second cRIO (as in this setup it would not be a controller, just a processor).

It worries me some times that inspectors a left with a lot of room to make judgment calls (all though I understand it is necessary). I could easily show up to a competition with the set up I described (assuming it fit all of the cost guidelines) having never asked Q&A because my set up seems to be clearly allowed, only to have atleast two inspectors (Fletch and another one mentioned in this thread) who clearly have a difference in opinion to what the rule means, largely (in my opinion) based on the lack of differentiation by the inspectors between a controller and a co-processor.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Oh my goodness! I forgot the fact that the cRIO has a serial port that can be used to do this stuff. If you use an absurdly high baud rate (with a heavy dose of custom code, of course) and hook up a crio to, say, an arduino over serial (hook up the tx and rx to digital ports 0 and 1), you could have a co-processor work. I'm going to experiment with this and i will keep you posted.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

The max for arduino is 9600 baud rate

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

No it isn't. http://www.arduino.cc/en/Serial/Begin I've run mine at 115200 and it works fine.

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Isn't that still a seriously low level of bandwidth?

I guess knowing what you are passing back and forth, it might only have to come down to raw, simple data that gets proccessed, and the results are passed back just as simply, but still...

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

LULZ I was looking at http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/SoftwareSerial

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

If you are seriously considering an arduino, then why don't you use one of the ethernet shields?

http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17_21&produ cts_id=83
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/pro...oducts_id=9026

that would leave the serial port on the cRio open, and dwould allow a network switch to combine several on the robot.

The sparkfun shield communicates over SPI, which theoretically has a higher bandwidth then the serial comms that it is replacing

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

Don't other electronics, such as the Jaguars, use BIOS batteries?

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

No, only the compactRio has a bios battery for its real time clock.

I have a picture of the insides of a jaguar which i will edit my post to attach (can't find it right now)

Re: Regarding The cRio
 

There are cheaper alternate to the Arduino, the mbed, has CAN, Ethernet, file system and serial all built in at $50 only bad side id teh compiler is only online