Decline of GTR Attendance
 

Only 1 US team attended GTR this year and I was trying to come up with reasons to explain this.

• Michigan is busy
• Border issues
• (this year) Easter

Anyone have any other reasons for why GTR isn't the two fielded monster it once was?


Notes:
Waterloo regional started in 2005
frclinks is awesome

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

I'd chalk it up to teams being wary of crossing the border.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

Both Canadian regionals this year had only 1 US Attendee. This is typical for Waterloo (68 in the early years), but rather atypical for GTR (a notable omission is 48, who've frequented GTR since its inception)

1000 attended WAT this year
2949 attended GTR. That is all.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

Duncan,

The biggest cause of the decline this year was Easter weekend. Many teams who typically attend pulled out for that reason, and will be back next year. The reason for the relatively small field last year (59) was because GTR was capped early, to divert more teams to Waterloo. The loss of American teams due to the passport issues has been problematic as well. I expect next year's GTR to be much bigger than it was this year.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

The early Easter had lots of people moving things around. Next year it is 24 April well after Robot Season. We were worried that Drexel would have been Easter Weekend, we were glad it was up a week.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

I don't know if many of you on CD have heard, but it was announced at GTR that FIRST Robotics Canada has received 3 million dollars in funding over the next 5 years from the Ontario Provincial Government to grow FIRST in Ontario. Seeing that next year is our 10th anniversary, I would say its a safe bet next year is going to be a big year for FIRST in Canada. I hope we will see the return of more American teams as well!

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

I can't wait for next season, I've been to every regional since 2002 and I'm not going to miss next years, hoping teams like 233, 217, 48, 45, 522 etc will come back and help celebrate GTR's 10th anniversary

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

It might be a cool idea to see if there are US teams who might be interested in doing an exchange, like 188 and 4/22 did for several years.

Each team takes turns billeting the other at their home regionals. It saves a significant cost in hotels and food, and it's a great way for teams to get to know each other.

I know my team has never competed in a regional in the US before, or at Championships. I wouldn't mind sending out some feelers to see if there are any US teams who may be interested.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

GTR is always in the initial regional discussion mix for us, but new passport pains are currently the most important factor that harpoon our selection of that event. I believe bussed students on a trip can still get away with birth certificates alone (corroboration?), but most team advisors are reluctant to go through the passport application process.

Transfer of the crate through customs each way was also an added expense and challenge. This is no longer an issue, but we are still not certain how much easier it will be to haul a bagged robot across the border now that all of Canada is bag/tag. Will the bot gain more scrutiny? Do we have a greater risk of a lengthy stop at the border? I'm not sure what the answers to those questions are. I know the Canadian teams tend to be more "bold" with their robot transfers to IRI, the Pittsburgh Regional, etc. but I don't think as much data exists for American teams ferrying their bots in personal vehicles/trailers into and out of Canada.

We'd like to get back to GTR and see some more American teams come up and join us again, but I can say we've truly enjoyed attending new "far" events elsewhere, as trips to the Midwest, Connecticut, DC, and North Carolina regionals since 2008 have all been a blast.

Whoa, 233 in Canada in 2002. Talk about olllllllld school memories. You're making my brain hurt. :-) Let's add 33, 176, 229, 379, 639, and 703, to name a few more.

I'll see what I can do about getting us up there next year. Anyone going to produce a 10th anniversary video highlighting the best Canadian/GTR memories of yore? Your regional folks always were good with the promo videos.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

There were 62 Canadian teams in 2006 and this year only 51 teams. Among those 51 teams this year there were 22 teams that started in 2007 or later. So only 29 out of 62 came back to GTR this year… that’s less than 50%:ahh: :ahh: ...

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

Don't forget 1511.
They won the regional in 2005.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

Well heck let's add in Chuck 84 since we were finalists with them and 1503 that same year. Best use of our 2005 robot ever. Only use of our 2005 robot, ever. There were no other highlights for 48's robot that year save for the Karthik and Amanda Morrison all-star mentor drive team match from IRI, which as far as I know, does not exist on tape, unfortunately. That would have been a great IRI talent show comedy skit all by itself. :)

I already said 229, but I remember working with a really young mentor named JVN at the Canadian Regional back in 2002 - that was a fun time.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

(taken from HERE)

Note that "Birth Certificate" is not listed.

As to why anyone wouldn't want to get a passport: I'm astounded. You can't go anywhere outside the US without one (well, you can't get back IN to the us without one...:rolleyes: ), it's under $100, you can go to almost ANY Post Office to apply, and it's good for 10 years. Personally, I always use my passport for travel, even domestically, since it's almost unimpeachable.

When 1676 visited GTR 2 years ago, we had every kid get a passport (all the adults had one already) even though a birth certificate was adequate. We waited maybe 15 minutes at the border coming back in, no problems at all.

As for the OP, I think that some teams found their budgets a little bit shorter this year as well.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

Piece of cake. We take 10 VEX teams to Canada twice a year for VRC tournaments and have had NO problems with robots or equipment. The border guards (in both directions) usually are very curious and want to hear all about the robots. For what it's worth, we travel by chartered bus and travel with 50-70 people, depending on the time of year. Canadian teams traveling south for VEX events haven't had any troubles either.

So stop being wusses, get your passports, and compete in Canada. We love our cold, damp neighbors to the north. We especially like winning their events. :)

(Of the five major VEX events in BC and Washington this year, Canadian teams won one, US teams won one, and mixed alliances won three. It's serious competition up here, with long-running rivalries, grudge matches, and epic partnerships. There are 80+ teams in Cascadia, and it just wouldn't be as much fun without the cross-border competition.)

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

Besides the Waterloo regional which draws Canadian teams, the Finger Lakes regional started at the same time and would draw some of the US teams that might otherwise travel to Canada.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

I've been to this site far too many times:

The following outlines group travel requirements that permit student groups of 19 and younger to supply only a birth certificate for border crossings:

http://www.getyouhome.gov/html/lang_eng/eng_sa.html

Seems straightforward.

However, passports for adults aren't cheap. Not everyone expects to travel abroad and may not want to go through the expense for a one-shot trip. $100 plus postage. That doesn't include the passport photos:

http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/fees/fees_837.html

Not exactly a swift process either.

The passport card is a bit cheaper but still requires the usual government hassle.

http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt...card_3926.html

Overall, for a team with 5+ mentors, you're looking at at least a $500 additional investment. Not all teams/parents/mentors have that kind of disposable cash, as much as we'd like to think otherwise.

It's also a little bit different bringing FTC robots across the border vs. a 150 lb. FRC bot. The big boys are more likely to draw additional attention.

There are definite costs and careful decisions associated with traveling out of country to a FIRST FRC event. It's not quite as easy as saying "just do it". In that regard, we've banked 6 years of anti-wuss credits in attending the Mississauga regional, so we've earned a break, but yeah.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

I think I can explain this. I don't want to go anywhere outside the US. In all fairness, I don't care to go to most of the places within the US. It's not that there's anything wrong with those places. I just don't care to go to them. Partly laziness, partly because I like home too much. I've traveled a reasonable amount on family vacations. Saw the Niagara Falls once from both sides...got really wet...never care to go there again.(sorry, just don't like getting that wet)

My point: I really am not trying to insult any place in particular...it's just that none of them are home.

A question to any that can answer it: How do you explain that you can't take the robot out of the bag? I understand with VEX you can show them the robot(might be wrong), but with FRC you can't really do that. How do you prove to them there aren't explosives or something?

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

We had absolutely no issues bringing a bagged robot to Pittsburgh this year, US customs let us through quickly (they usually are sticklers for things like a 150lbs robot). Aslong as you have your documentation organized it shouldn't be a big issue.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

For the benefit of others, please define "documentation" in detail. Documentation of people seems clear enough. What documentation for the robot, tools, etc. is required nowadays?

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

Seriously -- border guards aren't FRC inspectors.

"What's in the back of the van?"
"We do high school robotics competitions. That's our robots and tools."
"Is that like BattleBots?"
"Not really -- think basketball, not football."
"Are you selling anything while you are in Canada?"
"No. Just going to a tournament then going home."
"Have a good time in Canada."

Just reverse the comments coming back to the US. In a dozen border crossings we've never had our boxes opened, luggage inspected, or otherwise been hassled. In either direction.

There is nothing particularly sinister about even an FRC robot. Don't worry about it.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

I can vouch for this as well. Living right next door to Windsor and Sarnia, the border guards really won't give you any problems. Be polite, answer their questions truthfully, and you'll be through without a problem (even with a robot). I've brought across tool boxes that I didn't have the key for without a problem at all, along with numerous other things (sails, superchargers, turbochargers).

I have to take my sailboat across the border for regattas, and the only time I really had to wait was when of the security guards knocked himself out coming out of the hatch (didn't pay attention to the 35 foot aluminum mast laying directly over the opening and drove his head right into it coming up the ladder). The border guards got very... interesting.... looks on their faces when I ran in to tell them their friend needed medical help. Got some good laughes from them too :D .

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

If the border security people say, "Take it out of the bag and show it to me" you take it out and show it to them. FIRST rules don't make any difference at all to law enforcement.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

Sigh. You're going to make me relay the single *bad* experience we've had at the border, aren't ye? We did FRC border crossings for six years. I'm not suggesting these things based on zero past experience.

Back in 2003 or 2004, we had our team trailer (pit wall, robot cart, tools, materials, etc.) and trailer hauling personnel detained for 3 hours upon reentry into the U.S. because...well we never quite understood what the trailer folks said or did not say to cause it. A full trailer strip search ensued. I do not believe they had a list of trailer contents.

We've learned that if you don't prepare for the worst situation, that is exactly the moment in time it will happen. By suggesting that teams prepare some basic documentation, I'm asking teams to minimize their risk exposure to unpleasant situations like we went through that one year.

I'd include in documentation:

• A printout of the event's team list, showing your team number and team city/state location (especially useful if you are bringing a trailer with a team number and home location on it or are wearing team paraphernalia with the same information)
• A copy of the event agenda with dates, times, and the event's venue address
• A list of the basic tools and materials you are bringing with you, especially the ones you've packed in totes or are hidden from sight.
• A picture and description of the robot - a copy of the robot spec sheet you'd hand out to teams at a competition would suffice

Do not present the material unless asked, but have it handy in case they do. If asked, be honest and transparent in showing what you are bringing over and why you are doing it. Have keys to the trailer and any lockable storage to quickly open and show the border guards contents, if asked.

Be honest, be prepared, and you should be fine.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

We've been crossing the border to play FRC for six years now, and to play VEX for the last three (usually to visit Rick and the Exothermic folks down in Redmond, NOT Seattle, right Rick?)... occasionally we have to leave a student behind because they aren't a Canadian citizen (yet). I can confirm that students, under the age of 18, travelling as part of a school group do not need a passport to cross the border, so long as they have proof of citizenship and government issued photo ID (a student card works fine). I can also confirm that students without proper documentation will not be allowed to cross the border.

Almost all our students have Canadian passports, however, and I encourage them to get them well in advance of robot season if they don't. It does make life easier. I take care of getting travel medical insurance for all of them... group rates are pretty cheap for young people on a short trip, and... well... I was going to say something about health insurance, but I understand that is a bit of touchy subject south of the 49th these days.

We have never had any problem driving across the border, unless you count an hour long wait coming home from Seattle on an Easter weekend a "problem". However we don't bring a trailer, and we do try to cross as a convoy, and while our documentation isn't quite as extensive as Travis has, that is mostly because we aren't carrying quite as much "stuff".

Oh... but do remember to mention to students that it isn't a good idea to cross the border if you have a criminal record as part of your trip planning. :eek:

We have never had a problem shipping our robot across the border, either, although there is additional paperwork involved. (And I'm crossing my fingers here, because our machine hasn't made it back from Seattle yet.)

So by and large, crossing the Canada/US border is a small hassle, but is likely perceived as a larger one by many teams thanks to the media attention and occasional, unfortunate, experiences that sometimes happen.

But back to the main point of the thread... I can add that the EASE of crossing the border has kept us AWAY from GTR, and for the past three years (ever since Seattle started up) we've found it much more affordable to compete with our friends two hours drive to the south than our friends five hour's flight to the east. Even the Portland regional is an inexpensive trip for us relative to GTR.

I know that the cost of getting out to Toronto has "worn down" some of the other FRC teams in Western Canada, to the point where we are the only ones left this year.

So when looking at 2006 vs 2010, you'll be missing four Western Canadian teams, two from Vancouver, and one each from Red Deer and Calgary, at GTR.

<edit: My apologies... the "death" of 1482 from Calgary has been greatly exaggerated. When I looked, earlier in season, they hadn't registered... but it appears they were, indeed at GTR this year.>

Jason

P.S. The BEST thing about crossing the border on the way home:

"Where have you been?"

"At a robot competition in Seattle."

"How long have you been away?"

"Three days."

"Anything to declare?"

"Yes sir... total purchases of $375.50, no alcohol or tobacco... AND THIS!" (holding up trophy)

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

With the advent of the Bag & Tag system, I would expect teams to have LESS difficulty crossing the border to join us in either Waterloo or GTR. We've been attending Kettering Kickoff and Brunswick Eruption since 2007, and simply brought our bot with us in a trailer. Never had a problem in either direction over the border, just tell them where you're going and what you're doing. People smuggling stuff across the border arent going to make up that they're going to a robot competition.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

I thought it might have to do with FIRST encouraging more matches per team at each regional. GTR started early on Friday and Saturday, and ran pretty late (4:45 on Friday, 12:30 on Saturday). If they'd had to deal with more teams, they would have had to start even earlier and end later if they wanted the same # of matches.

I do miss the double-field action though; it made it seem like a Really Big Event. The 12-alliance finals were neat too. Maybe with the millions from the provincial government GTR can get back to its double-fielded glory in the future.

As for the border, my friends and I have had very little trouble crossing it in both directions, even with expensive/weird things like LeMons race cars and spare engines. Both years, the border guard seemed far more interested in LeMons ("For $500 cars? That sounds fun! Good luck!") than in border-guardey stuff.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

We had more teams in Seattle (64) than GTR, and everyone managed to get 9 matches in without any problems, so I don't think thats it. (The FIRSTWA folks are justifiably proud of their volunteer crew.... they are GREAT!)

It might have something to do with the economy... although, truth be told, with the entry fees at $5000 and the Canadian dollar at, or close, to par with the USA, this has been the least expensive year for us as far as entry fees since we started with FIRST.

But if we'd lost our major sponsors at GM, the season was in jeopardy for us. I'm sure there are at least a few teams who pulled out for financial reasons.

Jason

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

Well, I can completely understand that. I'm partial to home, but like seeing different things. I don't think there's anything "bad" about either approach, really.

As for the cash outlay for a passport: Yes, I am fortunate to be employed at the moment, but were I not, i could easily see a passport as a luxury that falls way off the 'need' list.

(Passport photos: Take a digital photo, edit it so it's 2 photos the right size in one image, go to CVS or some place that lets you print out a digital photo for 20 cents or something; no need for real photographic paper, I researched that already.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

I'm with a team that was at GTR two years ago (1507) and and formerly with a team that won GTR back closer to 2000 (378).

We'd like to attend Toronto's regional more, but so far the main issues have been the border requirements and the shipping.

When we attended last, students and for that matter adults, could return to the US with only basic proof of citizenship (birth certificate, draft card, etc.) along with a photo ID. Carrying tools, trailers, etc. should still be unchanged. Just have a detailed list of what you bring and - this is important - stop on the way out and have the list filed with the US border people. They will give you a form that proves what you're carrying back in came with you.

The shipping was a big added cost. I'm not involved in the shipping end of things, so I don't know all the details, but I was under the impression that the customs brokering was an added fee and that we couldn't use one of the "free" FedEx shipments across the border. We still managed to do it the one year, though. Bag and tag might alleviate that.

As for the bag and tag, I see no problem with breaking the seal for a customs inspection. They do it all the time for tractor trailers and they just reseal them. I'm sure there can be some provision for this made in FIRST's rules. I don't know what kind of seal a bag and tagged bot gets, but I'm sure something could be done, even if an additional seal had to be issued for border crossings.

The main problem now is the passport requirement. It may be more of a perceived problem and fade away as more and more people get them on their own.

I don't want to get all political, but I'm a bit irritated that I have to pay for some paperwork to get back into my own country, when the country I'm visiting is perfectly happy with only basic proof of identity, such as a drivers license. I'm over 50 and have lived within 20 miles of the Canadian border all my life and have gone there frequently without any hassles. I volunteered at marathons that crossed the border and have ridden across the border on a bicycle many times. I've skied all over Western Canada. But not any more. The cost of a passport is too high and takes too long to get to consider it anything but an added fee and inconvenience. I'll probably get an enhanced drivers license next time I renew my license, but they bumped that up to 8 years in a money grab a while back, so that's a while off. My drivers license is 6 years old and barely readable. They'd love to have me renew it two years early and pay an extra $65 for the enhanced version.

So that's what I see as a major problem with getting US teams to come to Canadian Regionals. It's not that we don't like them (Actually, we love Canada! I can see the Toronto skyline across the lake from less than a mile from my home. I watch Canadian TV over the air all the time.) it's the hassle our own country puts us through, treating us like we're some kind of "terrorists."

As I said, it probably all perception, but the perception might be slow to fade...

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

I suspect that you could write on your robot lockup form the unlock and re-lock with new tag AT the border with a note saying "US Department of Homeland Security Inspection". I highly doubt any robot inspector is going to give you flack for that one.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

The requirement for students, under the age of 18, travelling with and as part of a school group, is still proof of citizenship and photo ID.

The adults, though, have to get passports.

I suspect the donated FedEx shipping wouldn't cover shipping to Toronto for an American team. Mind you, if you're going to a second event, you're paying for shipping anyways. As a Canadian team we receive an international air waybill that allows us to ship to and from the USA. Ironically, it doesn't allow us to ship across Canada. Usually I have found that freight expeditors can arrange shipping on a semi-trailer for the robot at fairly low cost. They can also help with the customs clearances and the brokerage process. It is an additional cost, but usually a fairly minor cost relative to entry fees, robot parts, hotel fees and teacher-on-call costs. (To cover for the team's teachers while we're supervising the trip.)

While the cost of a passport is certainly an issue for some, I find that over the course of 5 years I use it often enough that it amortizes out to somewhere around a few dollars per trip. In fact I've also got my NEXUS card which allows me to cross the border very, very quickly and efficiently. It costs a bit more, and involves a background check and security clearance... but is it ever fast... especially in airports.

And our southern friends are always welcome up here. Just make sure you can get back home when you're done! The perception, I think, is worse than the problem.

Jason

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

With regard to customs inspections of bagged and tagged robots, although they weren't mentioned in the rules (and should have been), FIRST communicated to lead robot inspectors that this is acceptable, and doesn't even require a noncompliance form. (The noncompliance form would be your robot's ticket to play, if your team screwed up a bag and tag requirement. It's not fully explained in the rules either....)

As of 2010, the procedure is to seal the robot in the bag on the appropriate date, carry your extra zipties your log form with you, and if the customs officer asks to see inside, just log the opening and closing immediately before and after the customs inspection.

If it gets inspected by customs while bagged in the crate (in my unofficial opinion) you'd be fine if you provided the slip that customs attaches when they inspect something. (Otherwise, the noncompliance form isn't a huge deal, even if it wasn't your fault.)


With regard to bringing equipment across the border, when I was working with a University of Waterloo engineering student team, the Canada Border Services Agency advised us to prepare a detailed equipment manifest, present it at Canadian customs before crossing (for a stamp), and inform the American customs official that all items were for the purposes of an engineering competition, and were not being permanently imported into the country. Upon returning to Canada, we presented the stamped manifest, and Canada customs approved all of the equipment for re-entry. I imagine that a similar procedure is possible for Americans coming to Canada.

(The previous year, we were advised by the University's finance department to obtain temporary importation bonds, which require special approval at both border crossings, and a bunch of complicated paperwork. The TIB procedure advised us to use the truck lanes at land crossings, and have our documents approved on entry and exit by both Canadian and U.S. officials. That procedure was a royal pain, and involved much waiting in lines. And according to CBSA, this wasn't necessary for our purposes—so there's a lesson for us all: just talk with the government directly to get the real procedure.)

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

Thanks for that information. I've never even seen a bagged robot - we haven't attended a B&T event yet - but it seems like a good idea and a way to reduce shipping costs.

It seemed like common sense that there would be a simple way to account for customs inspections and still preserve the integrity of the bagging process. I'm glad it's there.

It looks to me like B&T is the way of the future and I think we'll see more of it. I'm sure the details in the rules will be spelled out more precisely as time goes on.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

If you are at Champs Wednesday night, the teams that were at GTR will be in their crates in bags and will have to be checked by the inspectors before opening them. Stop by one of their pits and you can see the bags and seals. Our team is in Galileo and will bet there by 6 to get in.

Re: Decline of GTR Attendance
 

As will we, 1075, Curie.