Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

So Dean's speech at the end of Championship had what almost seemed like a throwaway comment that managed to offend at least two of my mentors and two of my sponsors (who were responsible for thousands of dollars of funding this year for our team).

His comment about how 'nobody wants a manual labor job' was not well-received by the general contractor who has been helping our team with electrical work, fabrication, and assembly for six years, nor by the farmer who gave us his time as well as over two thousand dollars (and has only ever wanted to be a farmer, and loves his job and his life), nor by the owner of the woodworking company that has given us thousands of dollars over the past several years.

I'm worried that I've lost one of those mentors (who said to me, "I'm sorry, but I don't think I can support this anymore"), and at least one -- if not both -- of those sponsors, who were deeply offended by Dean's callous and elitist comment.

And frankly, I agree with them. I couldn't help but look at the people breaking down the other fields behind Dean while he was speaking, and hoping that they were too busy doing the necessary work to make the Championship a success to have heard him. I couldn't help but think about all the security guards, janitors, maintenance people, truck drivers, drayage workers and so forth who made each regional and the Championship possible. It made me wonder if Dean has ever heard of Dirty Jobs, much less watched an episode.

Science and technology absolutely make the world a better place, and they should be celebrated, and FIRST is just the vehicle in which to do so. But manual labor jobs feed us, clothe us, produce much of the energy we use, clean up after us... Indeed, even all the coolest robots and technology are ultimately assembled and maintained by manual laborers -- or by robots that were assembled and maintained by manual laborers. Without them, science and engineering careers wouldn't even get off the ground.

So kids, I hope that as you grow up and go to college and get fabulous careers in science and technology, that you keep that lesson close to your heart -- the "little guys" getting their hands dirty are the reason your career is even possible, and you should be thankful for each and every one of them.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I'm a manual laborer. Have been one for 22 years.
I can't help it if I'm not as smart as some as the kids I mentor.
Doesn't mean that I'm not important or that I don;t have wisdom to pass down to them.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I think your reference to Dirty Jobs is right, as Mike Rowe says "Hard-working men and women who earn an honest living doing the kinds of jobs that make civilized life possible for the rest of us."

We need the manual workers, but, for the majority, Dean was right. He said we don't want to grow up to break our backs in a dead end job (paraphrasing). I am right now at a CNC milling competition, but I would leave now if it pigeon holed me it doing for the rest of my life. I have aspirations of becoming a big-shot engineer where the manual labor is light. Will it happen? I hope so, check in in ten years. Whether it does or not, I hope that I'm not stuck in the do this same thing 5 thousand times a day industry.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I was a manual laborer from age 17 to age 30 and hated every day of it.
It's been 27 years since donning the 'white collar', but I'm pretty sure I recall that just about all my unskilled labor co-workers hated their lot in life too.

I am responding NOT to take issue with your post.
Not to invalidate your feelings (nor anyone's feelings) about the statement.

I just think it's fair to consider the context.
Dean was talking *to the students* who attended the champs.
Was it reasonable for him to assume that none of them aspire to a manual labor job?
I think so.

If you happened to be within earshot, it doesn't mean he was talking *to* you or *about* you.

Edit: it would have perhaps been better if he'd said that he assumed none of the students "wants a manual labor job", but I'm not willing to vilify him for not being so semantically precise.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

The robots we build in the future will make jobs safer, easier, cleaner, and better paying. Higher productivity will make more wealth for all to share, leading to a higher standard of living for everyone. There will be more leisure time for everyone, scientists, business people, and laborers alike.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I didn't hear the speech, but with this being the second year this topic has arisen, perhaps a certain degree of graciousness might have become accidentally neglected during the struggle involved in pursuing a worthwhile goal? Even the best of us can sometimes fall victim to tunnel vision when passionately devoting ourselves to accomplishing a goal.

This topic is not a debate about the truth or fallacy of some statement, it is about something else.

Blake

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I'm not a manual laborer -- I'm a teacher. (Ok, and a part-time beekeeper. Which is manual labor. But that doesn't really count.)

I'm also nearly impossible to offend.

The mentor I quoted, however, is a manual laborer, he chose to be a manual laborer, he loves what he does, and he (rightfully) thinks that his place in society should be valued.

Dean was talking *to* the kids, yes, but he was talking *about* the economy as a whole. He specifically said that we don't want the old jobs back (which is hard to hear when you know a lot of people who would really, really, REALLY like to have their old jobs back -- there's a lot more pride in swinging a hammer than being on welfare).

...and Dean was also talking to everyone watching the international broadcast, be it via NASA or the internet. His audience was a lot more than those kids.

------------

The bottom line of my issue here is that his comment very likely cost my small, rural team mentors and sponsors that they cannot afford to lose. Speeches being what they are, they shouldn't be negatively impacting teams.

Whether or not you agree with my gripe about the speech, I'm certain that I'm not the only person with the same take on it -- nor my mentors the only mentors, nor my sponsors the only sponsors.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Perhaps Dean needs to listen...

He could shorten his speech and not offend these people at the same time...all it takes is focus and a bit less talking and he could make everyone happy...






Rob

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I took it that he was saying it's much better to create new jobs which increase our quality of life than to bring back old jobs which due to the increase in our levels of technology are no longer required.
It's something I've thought about myself, it seems that whenever a large amount of jobs are no longer needed, people who worked in those jobs should now be able to work in new jobs which increase our quality of life. The problem with this is that someone is needed to create those new jobs, a fine challenge considering the crowd.

As for Dean's comment about nobody wanting to be a manual laborer, I didn't notice during the speech, but I agree that he is incorrect about that statement. I know I don't want to do manual labor, I bet Dean doesn't like manual labor, but I know plenty of people who enjoy it, and I try to not take for granted said labor which makes our quality of life possible. It is my firm belief that the diversity of people is one of our greatest strengths as a people, however one problem is people may not see that they have the opportunity to pursue what they love to do as a career or even that such an opportunity exists. I find FIRST great in it's ability to inspire people who may be people which make great engineers and mathematicians, however I don't think everyone wants to be one, nor should everyone be one.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Back when I was in college, I did a lot of manual labor for summer jobs. I once spent a week shoveling manure in the basement of a barn. With every swing of the pitchfork, I told myself "Once you get that degree, you'll never have to do this again."

Fast forward 30 years. I have a 30 acre hobby farm and raise a few cattle of my own. I get to spend plenty of quality time in the basement of the barn with a pitchfork. Now, I just smile and think "This sure beats sitting in a staff meeting."

Manual labor is a necessary and honorable thing, but I'm glad I don't have to get up and do it every day on somebody else's terms.

And for what its worth, some of the best practical experience a mechanical engineer can ever get comes from working on farm equipment.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Making money with your mind is rewarding, awesome, and should be encouraged in every possible way.

But making money with your hands is (or used to, depending on the economy sadly) a way to feed you and yours, and feel just as satisfied with life.

There are a lot of jobs people don't want. I have yet to meet a 16 year old who's aspiration is to grow up flipping burgers. And yes, some jobs aren't as pretty or glorious as others. But if I have chance to work with my hands, I'll take it every chance I can get. It's not only an awesome way to learn how things actually work (I'll learn more about a motor by taking it apart and experimenting than just looking at schematics), but also a way to realize that putting in a day of hard work is satisfying, knowing that you've done a good job, weren't afraid to mix things up, and earned your pay.

FIRST does a fairly good job of that. Not everyone will grow up to be an engineer, but everyone can have a place in FIRST.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

It kills me everytime I hear this sort of thing, because a good 50% of my FRC team were the guys and galls who were aspiring to technical specialties or trades. Although someday in the future their jobs may become more mechanized, I doubt the human element will every be completely removed.

I really wish people could understand one simple point, and that is: if the machines can do easy manual labour, what is the next step? Simple, we make them better at it. Eventually they will get to the point of being able to engineer and discover things themselves... So really, if humans want to remain relevant at all, we will find a balance integrating humans and machines into jobs together. (I believe this point has been argued by more eloquant men than me since the start of the industrial revolution, so I encourage reading up on your dystopias [or just watching Terminator :)])

The T in FIRST, technology is a very broad field, and I think we should include the technicians and tradespeople that make the way of the engineer possible in our envelope of inspiration.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Manual labor is not a bad thing. In fact, it is critical to everyday life as we know it. Robots are good for taking over dangerous jobs so that we don't put peoples lives in danger, but we can't have robots picking up trash, fixing roads, farming food, raising cattle so we can have steak, building houses, clearing land, etc. Life just would not function without these areas in life covered. I recently wrote an essay for my college writing class on this topic and discussed how college is not for everyone and how our country is slowly taking away from the value of the "trades" and manual labor. Our country has this image that we students will play varsity sports, get good SAT or ACT scores and receive tons of scholarships, play college sports while maintaining studies, and get a high paying job. Hate to break it to most of Americans, but that just does not happen in real life! :o Engineering is a great field of work that shapes the future of the world, but it is not the only thing that will change the future, there are so many jobs that change how the day happens and functions.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Right. I like wood working -- with hand tools.
It's manual, dirty, therapeutic, and I do it (or not) at my discretion.

Yes, his place in society should be valued -- by society -- and I believe it is.
But if nobody is willing to pay him to do what he loves doing, is it honestly inaccurate (much less offensive) to say that what he does is valueless?

In 1983, I worked at the Western Electric Plant in Dundalk MD.
At the time, there were about 5,000 essentially unskilled laborers working there in 3 shifts.
We had a strong union, good benefits, and excellent pay (when I left in '83, I was making over $13.00 an hour).
By 1986, the entire plant was shuttered and all the jobs gone.
Those jobs didn't disappear because society deemed the people who did them valueless -- the economy deemed them valueless.
The people who did those jobs had no control over their own destiny, no say in their own future, no recourse but to hope (for most, in vain) that 'something else would come along' -- or that the old jobs would come back.

The real problem here is not with Dean's words but with the effect those words had on certain people.
We are all largely a product of our life experiences.
How we react to words and phrases is more a function of who we are than it is about the words themselves or the person who uttered them.
Is it bad, shameful, or undesirable to be a manual laborer?
It's a pointless question in absence of a precise meaning for those two words.
And let's face it, as this thread shows, 'manual labor' seems to have many meanings -- ranging from noble to 'no way'.

I simply argue that it's unfair to take someone's words and project one's personal bias onto that person as if there's no question what was meant.
I will relent that Dean could have (OK, should have) been more precise -- 'menial unskilled manual laborers' might have been safer.
But I don't believe he was referring to brick-layers, or plumbers, or HVAC mechanics, or skilled carpenters when he said 'manual laborers'.
I believe, based on my life experience, he was referring to those 5,00 poor folk who bet their futures on an industry that outgrew the need for them.

Whether or not I agree with how you 'feel' about the meaning of ambiguous phrases is irrelevant.
Whether or not others agree with how you 'feel' about them is equally irrelevant.
You have a selling job ahead of you and, as hard as it may be to accept, I'm trying to help you.
You could try to convince your sponsors and mentor that Dean is an elitist buffoon and that, because you are so completely mortified and embarrassed by his insensitive words and callous attitude, they should stick with you in spite of him.
Or you might try to get them to understand that possibly, just maybe, there was no actual offense in what he said.
Whichever way you go, I really hope you succeed -- really.
We are a small rural team too, and I think we share your vulnerabilities.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I had a few mentors who point blank said "Saturday was fantastic, until Dean ruined it with his speech."

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

FIRST does spend a lot of time playing up the math, science and academic parts of the competition at the cost of the skills side of things.

But you know, it wouldn't hurt to drop a note to Dean explaining how his comments were heard by your sponsors and mentors.

It may well be that Dean's understanding of "manual labour" is quite different from that of your colleagues. Personally, I would refer to the work of tradespeople as "skilled labour" as opposed to "manual labour". I see manual labour as being paid for how much you sweat... and while there is no doubt that many tradespeople often get dirty and sweaty in the course of their job... they are being paid for what they know. Thats why there is a four year apprenticeship, and why master craftspeople... and general contractors... are worth one heck of a lot more than they were as teenagers. It's not because they have a stronger back... it's because they KNOW more.

And don't even get me started about how much you need to know to be a successful farmer! Heck... just ask any farmer. They are mechanics, accountants, economists, meterologists, biologists and more all rolled into one. Yep, they do some manual labour, but they also punch in GPS coordinates into the autopilot in the air conditioned cab of their tractor, too.

But don't take it from me... write Dean and ask him what he meant.

Jason

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I was thinking for a long time how to respond to this thread. But Jason and Georgie's Dad said it much better than I could. Repped. (Sorry, Jason, "You must spread ...")

I definitely would let FIRST know how Dean's remarks were heard. They need to know if the message they want to send is being received correctly or not.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

But don't they say that every year -- no matter what words Dean chooses? :eek:

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

The conditional statement as presented is of course rhetorical, but the "if" part of the sentence doesn't apply to any of my mentors.

Why can't it be both?

I don't see how that's relevant. From the ladies in the VIP elevators who were pushing buttons for him, to the servers getting him food and busing his table, to all those gentlemen expertly moving/shipping/moving-again all of those robot crates, FIRST itself runs on the backs of unskilled, menial, manual labor.

It's not difficult to accept at all. :confused:

I'm certain that Dean didn't get up in front of a group of enthusiastic students, mentors, and sponsors with the intent of offending them. However, having taken a step back and given it some time, I couldn't and still can't figure out what else he could have meant besides "students, don't be like those people" -- and I can't imagine how "those people" wouldn't be offended by such a remark.

I could have started the thread with a quip about speech length (at 27 minutes of Dean-only time, it was a record for brevity, and should have been a third of that), but I wanted people to take this seriously.

As for letting Dean know how his remarks were received, that letter is already in the works.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I apologize for assuming that you wouldn't. That was presumptuous.
You do make this into a dilemma.
How does one urge young people to better themselves without implying better than what?
I hope you are able to keep your sponsors and mentors.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Landscaper, Car Washer, Corn-Detasseler, Dishwasher/Busboy/Waiter, Bagger/Sacker/Restocker/Butcher-Shop Cleaner, Drugstore worker, Draughtsman before CAD, Inspection (NDE) Engineer Intern, Reactor Engineer, Bureaucrat, Physics Teacher, Robotics Mentor.

I can't add too much new to this thread. Wayne TenBrink said it best.
I still use all of these skills season-to season, at home, work, and play.

In my current avocation as a physics teacher, I engineer minds, which is harder than I expected as machines are far more predictable and easier to dissect.
Four times a year we assign physics projects that have a tendency to invert the class hierarchy. Those that can invent, but may not be great test-takers, shine. Those that excel at tests, find themselves in unfamiliar territory. Both benefit from the experience. (In creating these projects, I get to be my own GDC, designing for a diversity of outcomes, with the usual experience of learning what mistakes I made in designing a challenge.)

My idea here is that no one gets paid to take a test.

I still landscape, serve dinner, wash dishes and cars, bag my own groceries, draw, inspect students work, pay bureaucrats, and fix stuff.

I don't believe that Dean meant to offend those with exceptional mechanical skills who create inventions from raw materials, but he did.

Cut him some slack. He has done so much to focus our interests and energies on something that exercises our intelligence and skills to be more creative.
Our world is better for this.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

When Dean made this comment during his speech, I actually perked up a bit, and began to listen more attentively. I was a bit offended personally, but I think I was more upset because of how the students on our team may have taken it.

816 is composed of Students from a Vocational Technical School, and while many of them will go onto college, nearly as many of them won't. Most of them are taught a trade in their Career Major that is capable of supporting themselves and their families for the rest of there life, and for someone to tell them that "no one wants to be a manual laborer" is kind of like a kick in the face. Luckily no one (to my knowledge) was upset by this comment, so I can't be too upset either.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Hey, Don R. - It's time to jump in and do one of those "class-action letters" to Dean via FIRST.

Needing some damage control !!! This is not a light matter as a lot of funding comes into the FIRST system for workforce development.

I grew up in a tough labor intensive environment. I totally understand what that environment is like and the issues and how someone can get offended. I chose not to take offense but it can be tough for someone to pass on this.

I grew up farming. Now I'm an engineer.

I'm not sure I have the intestinal fortitude and smarts to be a farmer. It is way too hard.

Someone mentioned Mike Rowe. I have a recommendation to add to the "class-action letter" and I am perfectly serious about this. Dean needs to bring Mike Rowe onto the cast of characters at FIRST.

Since starting his show "Dirty Jobs" he has had an epiphany about the tough jobs in the world and has become advocate and promoter for those students that want to pursue the tough jobs that are out there.

For example, I for one am not willing to scrambling up the steel and concrete structures that these engineers design.

Ed

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Yes. The rest of the presentation gives a clear, energetic and consistent message.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

OK, I've been waiting for somebody else to ask but nobody has.
I am not challenging you because I wouldn't know where to start if I wanted to.
Would you please explain what you think it's about?

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I've spent time in recent years, mentoring mentors who are pushing as hard as they can to cross the fine lined barrier of reality for their students, and move them towards their goals of broadening the scope of that reality by encouraging education, the pursuit of education, and the pursuit of dreams that can become reality - through education - when the real world is telling, showing, shoving down the throats of some of these students (and their parents), that education, the pursuit of education, and dreams becoming reality - are trivial and unimportant. We work together to find ways to make education real, valued, and to help students understand that mentors and teachers can be trusted in their knowledge and experience. The students must trust us enough to know they can board a plane to a distant event, leaving everything they know, and will come back with a broader understanding and awareness of their place in the world, in our society, and in the culture that we are helping to create.

These mentors and teachers are striving to help students take that step towards a high school diploma and move on towards submitting that college application - as first generation high school graduates and college students. They ask a lot. They push hard. They sweat. Many students in FIRST know and see what is called, manual labor. Many have respect for it because it is what feeds and clothes them.

Yes, what we are doing in FIRST is important regarding the science and technology side of things - but digging down deep, uncovering hidden talent, dreams, ideas, tenacity, intelligence, and opportunity - are just as important. Especially in the hearts of the mentors, teachers, and students that are moving the road blocks to the path that leads to discovering the value of education - through sheer guts and determination.

Come to Texas. I can introduce you to some incredible mentors, teachers, and students - who are grappling with this daily. Come to Texas and join us.

Jane

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

One of the things that has always struck me about Dean is he seems to bite the hand that feeds him. On one hand he grovels and begs for support the other he makes snide remarks about them. Take for example politicians, he grovels and begs for support but in the same breath he bad mouths politics and says they aren't the solution. Now he is making remarks about the group of people he wants all of us to be like; hard working people. Shouldn't he be holding them up as an example? They are breaking their backs so that his vision can be realized. How are they any different than the field reset people? Are we going to be disparaging them next?

On the other hand Dean is right. Not to insult manual laborers in any way but for a person who is able to do more manual labor is a waste. If for the formative years of his life Andy Baker was told, "Manual labor is all you can do" we might all be spending a lot more time building gearboxes. Imagine what we would have lost just because we didn't encourage those who can do to do.

In short, I don't know what to tell you. I can see both sides of this comment. Isn't the goal of FIRST to have people look up to engineers and scientists as role models? How can we do that without saying that these professions are somehow better than others. You cannot put someone on a pedestal as a role model without first saying that they are better than others, by saying that you are saying that others are somehow inferior.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I don't know about the rest of you, but I do this to give kids an opportunity that I never had. I do not do it because I want to be a hero or role model; and I do not do it in order to produce the next generation of elitist jerks!

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

To me that reads as though engineers like yourself should be role models and people we look up to. I always looked up to the engineers when I was a student, heck, I still do. I've always felt that was what FIRST was about, connecting students with mentors who can serve to inspire and guide them along a path they might not otherwise have known. To do that you have to be a role model not just some bum off the street. You have to show the students that what you do is every bit as awesome as what their favorite athlete does.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Wayne... THANKS for putting this so succinctly in perspective.... I believe Dean will address this in a future release... clarifying his intended perspective.. or retract inadvertent faux pas...

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Your example of Andy Baker is an interesting one, I believe his greatest success was not as an engineer but as an entrepreneur. I believe that the FIRST community stresses engineering but falls short on entrepreneurship.

This fact is ironic too considering that entrepreneurial skills are the skills required to accomplish all of Dean's homework. However, in spite of this fact, the program still emphasizes engineering. I believe that entrepreneurship is a banner that would unite all those who support FIRST, from the manual laborer, to the engineer, to the politician.

FIREE anyone? (For Inspiration and Recognition of Engineering and Entrepreneurship )

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I have to agree and explain my choice of Andy Baker. I am making some assumptions. I do not know much about Mr Baker's formative years. He may have only been told that working as a line worker for GM was his only option. I HONESTLY don't know. He was chosen not because of his success with AndyMark but because of his sheer impact on FIRST.

(Does anyone have any good rules for remembering how to spell entrepreneurship? I really cannot spell that word without spell check.)

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I went to school to learn how to be a Professional Ford Auto Tech (fancy name for a educated mechanic who has Ford training) and i was a little offended. We need people doing jobs like fixing your cars, or fixing your plumbing, or building that bridge or house or whatever. I would most likely kill myself if I had a desk job staring at a computer, I do that enough at home. I'm not a smart person, but give me a car and some parts and I will make it go fast.............. or blow up they are both fine results to me. Not everyone can be an engineer making $100,000 a year.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

You are absolutely correct though, not everyone can be an engineer. Not everyone wants to be one either. I have a friend who, pardon the expression, is dumb as a brick when it comes to engineering but if you put an engine in front of him he knows exactly how it works and how to make it work better. He is passionate about cars and fixing them.

Perhaps the phrasing Dean should have used: "No one wants to do a job they are not passionate about." I know everyday I go to work dreading it, I am not passionate about what I do and I hate it. Perhaps FIRST shouldn't be encouraging STEM but should instead be encouraging passion while exposing students to new opportunities.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I think Dean meant these words with no offense to anyone. I believe he meant no one wanted the old manual jobs that risks of losing a finger, hand, etc. were high. I want to be a skilled tradesman or a aviation maintanence technician. These are manual labor jobs but those risks are not as high as the older manual labor jobs. Who knows, maybe im wrong.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I wouldn't consider you a manual laborer - I would consider you a skilled tradesman or a technician.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

With almost any manual job there are dangers, i couldn't count the number of burn i have from working in welding shops during the summers. Heck even while at trade school I saw a kid lose most of his hair thanks to a backfire that came out of a carburetor.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I don't think anyone would argue that Dean meant to offend people. I think the discussion here is more with regards to the fact that he did, unintentionally, and the complication that arose due to it. I think the individuals behind this thread are simply trying to bring to light that when Dean misarticulates, it has ramifications.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

As someone who's been around FIRST since 2003, I think I'm justified in saying I've heard a good portion of Dean's speeches, and since 2003, there's been a few things I've noticed over the years, both in Dean's speeches, and those of John Abele, Woodie Flowers, Paul Gudonis, and Bill Miller too.

A recurring theme I see in the speeches of these leaders is references to "this country", and "America". This is HIGHLY offensive to those of us who come from Canada, Brazil, Israel, Australia, Germany, Turkey, Great Britain, and more. Frankly, we have no intent of helping the United States of America by participating in FIRST, though it may be a side effect. This goes hand in hand with the "It's not Nationals, its Championships" argument.

It was offensive to me, because we had travelled thousands of miles to compete, and were made to feel as though we were not even there in some cases, as though FIRST was a purely American phenomenon. If you want to grow the program such that every student on the planet has the chance to participate, you have to start THINKING with a world-centric mindset.

International teams are NOT exactly a small group at Championships. Of the 344 teams that attended championships this year, 23 of them hailed from somewhere other than the USA. Thats more than 6% of the teams there.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Also the fact that the site the FIRST is hosted at is still usfirst.org
I mean at least they scrapped the US in the name, but I definitely agree with you, that this program is not a US program anymore, but now is an international program.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

General Contracting, Farming, Woodworking are absolutely positively not in the manual labor category. Yes it takes a lot of sweat but those are tough careers that require a lot of thinking, forward planning, risk management, personnel skills, and a fair amount of intestinal fortitude to create and operate successfully especially in any economy especially the current economy.

Each of these careers have a high "internal locus of control". Each of these individuals are their own man or woman. And each of them would prefer to be in charge of their own affairs instead of someone else running their lives. They are risk taking entrepreneurs.

In the past 3 weeks I have met with both Dean and Woodie, separately and up close and personal. I talked with Dean specifically on the issue careers choices that FIRST students make. By no stretch of the imagination does Dean expect all FIRST alumni to enter STEM fields. NO stretch at all. Dean wants what we all want and that is for students to get passionate about something, and take charge of their lives and excel at something. The reason the subject even came up was because one of my team members, Dean, and I were talking specifically about this issue because a student on my team is part of the Miss America's Pageant system and is the current Miss Teen Georgia. And no she is not going into STEM careers since we are talking about it. I was never planning on bringing up the Miss Georgia thing on Chief Delphi (because we do not want to exploit it) but it helps explain what I'm talking about. And yes ! she thinks FIRST is cool !!

Being a General Contractor, Farmer, or Woodworker requires someone that is clearly in charge of their destiny.

Woodie's discussed his childhood and how tough and dirt poor his family was. About how he learned to work with his hands and had NO plans to attend the university. He talked about education he got with his hands and how that gave him comparative advantage as a university student relative to those that have never had the opportunity to work with their hands and the sweat of their brow.

I can easily see how someone (that works that hard as the three careers listed above) can get worked up about Dean's comment. I understand that. I am from that world.

But based on up close and personal discussions with both Dean and Woodie (in the past 3 weeks) I am quite certain there was no slight intended by Dean but it was a careless choice of words.

Having said all of that Dean needs to address this in one of his future events. And I think it would be cool to get Mike Rowe on board.

Ed

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

*standing ovation!*

Awesome comment.

Jane

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I would like to be clear that I am absolutely certain that Dean did not intend his comment to be callous and insulting.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Given FIRST's mission to change culture and inspire youth to pursue careers and education in science and technology, I assume team sponsors intend to help with that mission and agree that it's desirable to change culture in that direction. To compete economically in the international arena will require much more than just manual labor.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I totally get what you are saying. I for one am not misunderstanding the comment.

Back in the little town I grew up in the large majority of people had a lot of grease and dirt on their hands. There were few people that had clean indoor jobs. One of them was the president, later chairman of the local bank.

With a great deal of pride he would jump at the chance to shake a dirty hand, make a connection with the people in the community and move the affairs of the town forward. It wasn't a phoney connection but the real deal.

He was a great role model growing up.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

The thing that I think alot of Americans don't realize is just how much their economy affects the rest of the world.

The economies of the rest of the world, and Canada in particular is heavily dependent on money coming in from exports to the USA. When the American economy tanks, it drags the rest of the world down with it, because the American public stops buying whatever widget my company exports to the USA.

Also, I don't think most Americans realize just how culturally similar Canada is (especially within 200km of the US Border, where 90% of Canada's population exists). I've travelled many parts of the world, and I can definitely say that Canada and USA are very similar, while the rest of the world is rather different.

My point here I guess is that the world does not revolve around the USA, BUT it is HEAVILY affected by what goes on there. The tanking economy, thats a world problem. The lack of future engineers this program is supposed to nurture, again, world problem. The lack of clean drinking water for the masses, once more, world problem.

If we're going to change the culture, get students the world over involved in STEM fields, and bring FIRST to every teen around the globe, we have to start by treating the problems not as an "American" problem, but instead treat them as what they are. World Problems.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

As a fellow Canadian, I've heard the repeated references to the USA as well, but maybe haven't been as bothered by them.

While the words might reflect a lack of global vision, they aren't nearly as important to me as the actions of FIRST, and those associated with it. FIRST is acting with a global vision, and I'm happy to be a part of it.

But I think if we want to take this particular topic any further it should get its own thread.

Jason

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I feel the reason Dean refers to the USA when they are talking about economic things in general is because the United States in having a problem right now with our economy. (now, I dont know much about how the economies of other countries are doing right now so dont hate me)

And, with the majority of teams in FIRST being from the USA it makes sense to target the U.S when they are talking about helping the economy right?

I was slightly saddened when Dean made this comment though,
because it made me think about all the times my dad would come home from work(pumping concrete, not an easy job, he's 52 and doing a job I would struggle to do) and tell me that I better go to college so I dont have to do something like that. :o


I agree that this is a "World problem", but we have to start somewhere right?

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Your dad is telling you the same thing Dean told you, using different words.
OK, it's a little different -- your dad is also telling you he loves you. :)

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

The students and mentors on our team were slightly offended by these comments as well. A few of our best mentors are laborers who have been with the team 10+ years and are some of the most dedicated people I have ever met. It is disheartening to see that the efforts of people like them are undermined and I am not even sure if Dean realizes what he says sometimes. Just because someone is not an engineer does not mean that they don't have a big impact on a team.
I agree 100% with this. Well said.

If topics like this were pointed out to Dean, I'm sure he would at least try to apologize in some way shape or form.

.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I've had a few jobs that have been physically tough, but at the end of the day I always enjoyed looking back and seeing the results that I'd produced. There is no better feeling than working as hard as you can - mentally and physically - and ending the day by looking back at the fruits of your labor. It taught me a great deal about expectation, responsibility, efficiency, and reliability.

It's a mindset - some people are not cut out for physically taxing and rigorous positions. Others can't imagine a life outside of the barn, the shop, the millyard - whatever the job may be. The beauty of life is that we forge our own paths the way that we see fit, molding and shaping our years into what we'd like to become.

But in addition, no parent wants to see their child struggle. Some people do view the demanding, monotonous labor jobs that exist in our society as the lowest on the totem pole and does not want to see their child taking a tough path in life. That's why our society stresses education in EVERY form, so that the most number of desirable options exists for every person. However, every person's definition of "desirable" is different, and I think Dean's inadvertent message seems to have ruffled the feathers of those whose positions are oft seen as less desired.

If your team is worried about your supporters, here's what I'd tell those mentors, students, parents, etc. that were offended by Dean's comments - Our team appreciates you. After all, Dean does not run your team. FIRST is a community program and a grassroots movement that is changing lives all over the nation, not a dictatorship or a kingdom ruled by one lone man. In the full scope of things, while the comment may have been somewhat inflammatory, those mentors and sponsors may need your love and support to remember that they're changing lives and helping to enable students to do what they want to do - manual labor or other career. You can be the positive reinforcement to tell these students that they can do whatever they want - and that FIRST can be a springboard - even if the career is not STEM related. (Yes, I said it.)

The short answer is - Dean's comment really doesn't matter. While it certainly didn't help matters and stepped on a lot of toes, it's okay. FIRST goes on. He's a great role model for this program, but it's alright to disagree with him. FIRST cannot run with only engineers as mentors. All walks of life are needed to make this program happen - community change can never become a reality without everyone's involvement. And you know what? That's just fine. Just make sure you communicate back to the owners of those stepped-on toes that they are appreciated, regardless of their profession.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Ironically, the mentor/sponsor who is backing away due to this has a daughter as an alum of the team who has gone into a non-STEM field (media relations) because of her experience on the team... (The others got over it quite quickly, and have pledged their continued support to our team).

And as to the rest, do you have any idea how hard it is to change the mind of a proud farmer? :D

It would be nice if that were true, but in this case it most certainly does matter. It matters very directly to a tiny rural team (we might possibly be the smallest school to participate in FIRST -- though I'm not sure where I'd go to find out if that were actually true, I'm sure it's very close to true).

We are tremendously -- tremendously -- grateful for Bausch + Lomb's sponsorship, but we also depend on the assistance of businesses in our town... And our town has literally no white collar businesses.

This won't destroy our team, certainly. Indeed, with our success at FLR, we've got big plans to expand and spread. But it didn't help, and did actually hurt -- not just some people emotionally, but our team and my students, materially and through a loss of mentor support.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I 100% agree with the 1st post. it was very elitist of Dean to say this. And I have often considered a job in manual labor. getting in tune with my inner self as i perform tasks of manual labor is often something that i consider doing for a living. And this is my 7th year in first.
I currently a pre med student at a top15 school but my sumer job is that of a janitor. Something i annually CHOOSE to do

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Yes I do. I too am the son of a proud farmer. Even though I am from South Carolina I worked with beekeepers from his area. In the winter time the only thing between Naples and the North Pole is a barbed wire fence and it is down.

Please offer him this deal from the son of a farmer and a former farmer and amateur beekeeper

You ask him to pledge to go one more year, just one more year ! I will pledge to him that I will persuade Dean to make good. And if Dean makes good you guys need to send me some of that great upstate New York clover honey.

I'm absolutely serious about this. This is too important.

Ed

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Maybe we should clarify what manual labor means to some of us.

When I think of manual labor, I think of loading 50 lb. feed sacks in the bed of a pickup truck or on a flatbed as they drive through the warehouse line and then prepare to load more 50 lb feed sacks on the next flat bed - all day long.

I think of digging post holes and filling them with the posts and dirt to run the fence line on acres of land.

I think of mucking horse stalls and carrying water.

I think of men standing on a corner waiting for backbreaking jobs to come along in the hot sun and hope they get chosen.

That's what I mean by manual labor. There may be other definitions that I'm not aware of.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Every job is important. if it werent, people wouldnt pay for it. people do things that contribute in some way to society. they shouldnt be dismissed, no matter what the job is
However, i do not thtink that Dean meant his comment offensively. Im sure that he didnt mean it... all he was trying to explain that he wants all of the intelligent kids who are in FIRST to contribute to society in some way that will advance us all, and that the math and science were learning in FIRST can aid us in doing that.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

PM me your address, and I'll send you some of my first spring honey, whether it be clover or whatever interesting tidbits God and the weather end up providing -- and that's regardless of his response.

To be honest, I think if you feel the need to clarify what is meant by manual labor, you are missing the point. Look at the Shepard guys -- all they were doing was moving boxes and driving forklifts, over and over again -- and yet they are integral to our operation.

What people today call McJobs, my generation called "opportunity".

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I haven't missed the point. Next time you are in Austin, let me know and I'll introduce you to some folks that drive forklifts and move boxes when they aren't loading the feed sacks on the trucks.

And I'll introduce you to one of my team's sponsors.

Jane

Edit in response to question about my original post in this thread.
As we know, the history of FRC started small and grew. As it has grown, it has spread out and become more inclusive - with schools, teachers, and mentors buying into the vision and the goals - getting students involved and engaged in science, math, technology - and thinking about their plans for the future. Some areas where FRC has spread to are still struggling with student retention and hopes of graduation, much less college and degrees in fields of math, science, technology. Degrees of any kind. I know first hand, the passion that these teachers and mentors have. They've found something that will inspire and will engage their students and will help motivate them to achieve educational goals, helping them to become high school graduates and first generation college students, breaking new ground.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Fair enough.

But now I have to ask what your original post was meant to illustrate. (Not trying to be obnoxious here -- I genuinely don't get it.)

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

It is quite simply remembering about one's manners and being polite.

Again, regardless of the truth or validity of all the other points discussed in this thread, I was taught to never show any disrespect for the way someone else puts food on their family's table.

Some folks have wondered how to be FIRST without doing that (without describing some careers as bad or undesirable). I suggest looking at it this way: FIRST helps its participants by showing them STEM's value, and by giving them options and choices. For some this is simply giving them an extra nudge in a direction they were already headed. For others FIRST gives them the key that unlocks a future full of possibilities.

To get back to the subject of manners, if I am ever in front of a group and even hint that someone whose best option is "manual labor" has made a bad choice, I want/need to be smacked hard with a 2x4. In the context of this thread, someone as blessed as I should never do anything other than show manual laborers extra respect, while continuing to open as many doors as I can.

That's how my grandmothers want me to behave.

Blake

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Thank you.
I think a 2X4 is a bit severe though. :ahh:

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

As I sat back and read this thread and read everyone analyzing Dean's words to the n'th degree, I could help but think I did not envy his position in the least. He has taken on the job of trying to change the culture while somehow trying to politically tiptoe around people's feelings... and just like our president every single word he says will be hashed and rehashed. We here on Chief Delphi rip apart every word he says, sometimes without trying to see the full meaning behind it.

I did a conference this past weekend on "Presentation Skills", and was even told by one of my students it was "SO Terrible" because after that he was analyzing everyone's speeches and now noticing everything they did wrong.

But my challenge is - you get up there and make a point as drastic as Dean's... as life changing as his and figure out a way not to offend someone. Its gotta be hard. I was scared enough going into a "Presentation Skills" conference in front of 50 people, knowing each of them would be analyzing my presentation skills. Now Dean has double duty of trying to convey a very powerful message, and do it as a great presenter.

Ditto.. my dad is "stuck" in a retail job at a woodworking store because he never finished his degree. While he doesn't have to constantly remind me of that, I am reminded of that when I see him having to refinance his mortgage or go a couple of months without fixing issues with his car, or not having taken a real vacation in over 10 years because he doesn't have the money.

I have a deep appreciation for all the skilled tradesmen and manual laborers. I thank the mailman and garbage collectors when I see them, I respect all of the technicians I have ever worked with for doing the hard and often repetitive work that I know would drive me insane. And for people that are passionate about those jobs all the better. But in FIRST, I want kids to see the opportunities that lie in science & technology careers. While I will hopefully teach them to respect absolutely every one and every career, I want their heros to be engineers & scientists. That means I'm not aiming for them to have heros that are actresses, basketball players, farmers, fishermen, stock traders, etc. There are places for all of that... but FIRST is for exposing kids to engineering. We can respect all of the shepard & Fedex people that cart all of our crates around, but that doesnt mean we intend to offend them when we say we want to be engineers.

I don't know about the rest of you, but Dean certainly changed my life drastically. So I for one would cut him some slack, try to find the good meaning behind what he said, and figure out a way to "pitch" it to any of those who are offended. While it definitely won't hurt to let Dean/FIRST know that those words caused offense, we can either pull everyone down complaining about it or rise towards the mission of this program.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Kim, I agree that Dean's words have been overanalyzed but I do think that dropping a letter to him letting him know that his words were interpreted by some as offensive has some value. Personally I would like to know if something I said in a presentation was way out of line. I would hope Dean is willing to accept criticism.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

This thread reminded me of a New York Times Magazine article I read a while ago. It is a bit long, but definitely pertinent, and a good read.
It's about a PhD in political philosophy who decided to become a motorcycle mechanic.
Read up!
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/ma...agewanted=1&hp

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I worked as an autoworker for over 30 years. About half of that was assembly of components. The bigger half, about 18 years, was as an electrician.

Now, an electrician certainly does a lot of manual labor, but also has to have a lot of knowledge. Much of my work was done with a computer, not a screwdriver.

The work I did when I was first hired was brutal manual labor in hot, wet, dangerous conditions lifting heavy loads for long hours. Those jobs no longer exist. (At least in that plant.)

Today, manual assembly jobs aren't anything like they were. No heavy lifting without some kind of mechanical device. Almost every aspect of it has been improved. The unions and OSHA have been responsible for some of it, but mainly, it just makes sense to let machinery do the more demanding work and spare the expensive human worker. (Unfortunately, it also has reduced the numbers of human laborers.)

But technology made this possible. People today wouldn't do the jobs I did in the 70's. Some of them didn't then. I saw new-hires walk out and quit! It's still hot in the plant I worked in, but most jobs are pretty tolerable by comparison.

Along with that comes a higher level of technological understanding required by even basic laborers. To operate those machines, you had to pick up some understanding of how they operate. Many of them have some sort of computer screen. If you can't read, you're pretty much out of luck. It's not rocket science, but a basic understanding of how things work can make the difference between being someone who has to be trained on one machine for weeks and being someone who can pick up a new machine in a few hours. Which is more valuable to an employer?

So it even trickles down to the lowest level of the workforce. I don't know what Dean was thinking or meant when he said what he did, but I'm sure in his mind he knew and simply raced ahead, making his point, not thinking we all needed more details to follow along.

I'd certainly take time to write Dean a letter explaining how his remarks cost you a sponsor. Give him specific details and contact information and let him have the opportunity to explain his remarks and repair the misunderstanding. I'd be surprised if losing even one sponsor wouldn't concern him greatly.

There is nothing wrong with being a manual laborer, but even if that is your choice of careers, in today's workforce, every bit of education you get gives you more choices and more opportunities. I worked with a number of skilled trades people who either had college degrees or were part way through getting one. There are even degree programs for farming. Even Garbagemen have become Sanitation Workers, and even "Environmental Social Workers." I can't think of any jobs at all that haven't been improved by technology.

FIRST should be about being an opportunity and inspiration to anyone, whether they intend to pursue an Engineering Degree, or not. I think one of they beauties of the program is how it can include so many different interests our students have.

Science and Technology is like the tide in the ocean, it raises all ships together, whether they're an engineering ship or a manual labor ship.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Did you also tell you students to stick to the script? Are they taught to prepare and not 'wing it"? Do you explain that they should get right to the point and not get "long winded"?

Bad things can happen when you are not prepared and say things that come to top of your head. We've all been there. And unfortunately I believe we all witnessed Dean doing the same thing. He is a great man who has done great things. But sometimes I just wish he would stick to the script and get on with the show.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

That is an address I look forward to hearing almost as much as I look forward to the next build season. ;)
The semantic dancing will be epic.

And it shouldn't be difficult to get Mike Rowe on board.
With all the dirty jobs available at champs, he could film a couple segments for his show -- that would be awesome.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

It's not the message, but the Communicator.

I don't think Dean's message about aspiring to a professional degree is the cause of the elitist paradox, but rather the fact that Dean said it. Had one of the arena workers said the same, we would have stood and applauded him/her. My dad, a bus driver, told me the same thing. He also told me that anyone making an honest living deserves respect for their contribution to us all. I'm sure Dean's views are the same.

Dean's delivery is not the best, but his points are insightful and very "quoteworthy". More like being in a brainstorming session rather than the slick, edited final version.

Several years ago we were visiting an elite engineering oriented high school. Students were drawn from all over the city and were selected by high math scores, language skills -- cream of the crop. One activity they participated in was a competition to see how far a student-made vehicle could travel on a fixed, small amount of gasoline. They would always lose to rural schools "out in the sticks". When the kids asked their teacher how this could be, he replied, "While you are preparing yourselves academically for engineering, those kids have been keeping machinery running on the farm for years. they can "feel" what will work and how to coax a little more performance out of an engine. They have a life time of experience."

Our high school robotics club has competed in a number of engineering competitions with university teams. High school kids who have worked on projects for several years can beat university seniors whose "hands-on" experience is a fourth year, one semester capstone project.

Manual labor experience with engineering training is a powerful combination.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Change the pronunciation of one word slightly to replace "manual labor" with "menial labor". Is that still offensive?

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I thought about that last night and again, it is the context in how it is used. This message of Dean's is not new and I don't think he said it without thinking or as an unprepared statement. He knows the possibilities of technology. We've touched on that in this thread - and how it can improve lives. We're losing that message here - improving lives in many ways: opportunity, change, advancement. In a few generations, we will remember the old times or be the old timers. I think Doc Wu explains that beautifully. And Dr. Cameron shows us how students can apply skills and knowledge in ways that advance opportunity and achievement - and beat the competition.

Jane

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Coupled with any suggestion that people ought not aspire to it, it would probably be more so.
But then I saw no offense in what was said in the first place.

Edit: Although, it would probably have the effect of reducing the number of people who took offense.
People who don't view their vocation as menial labor would let it slide I guess.
And people who don't know the meaning of the word 'menial' would probably remain unruffled.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

At some point, I have told every student I have had about the three most important people in any building. Not the CEO, not the engineer, not the assembly workers. The three most important people in any business are secretaries, cooks, and janitors. If you are in the good graces of these three groups, you have access to things the President of the company doesn't even know about.

I think I can say with some certainty that the students on 1529 respect me. I can say with absolute certainty that the students on 1529 idolize Dean Kamen (or Woodie Flowers or Dave Lavery etc.). However, my team has virtually daily interactions with me; their exposure to these fine gentlemen is once, maybe twice a year. And those interactions aren't exactly two-way. Whatever "elitist" comment Dean makes does not override the daily lessons the team learns. I guess what I'm getting at is my team decides how my team operates, not Dean Kamen.

To extend the analogy a bit further, I imagine most everybody on here respects his or her father. But somewhere along the line, Dear Old Dad probably said something that we found a bit coarse/bothersome/offensive, and he probably did this in front of our friends. Did this stop our friendship with Jimmy and Timmy and Sally? I'd hope not, and I'd hope Father Kamen's misstep doesn't affect your relationships with your sponsor-friends either.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Just some thoughts rattling in my brain today. Dean's comments strike me as very odd coming from him. Dean does not have a degree. (He has an honorary degree) Perhaps he is regretting not having finished college? I am not bashing Dean, this is just some piece of information that is making me wonder all the more what prompted comments like these.

Sorry for bringing this thread back to life.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

It is interesting that some of the best minds in innovation actually dropped out, including Dean and Gates. By going to college you limit risk, but at what cost? For me it was over $140,000.


For anyone looking into colleges, consider looking into other schools than the ones you think of at first. For example, UC boulder has an equivalent if not better CS program to WPI but at $12,000 less (for out of state) which with interest is almost a $55,000 savings.

Also if you plan on going to a state school like uc boulder, consider taking a year off and moving there and becoming a resident. By doing that you would save another $20,000 off the tuition. (remember you do have to worry about getting accepted so there is a risk that you would waste that year if you were rejected)

There are many factors that play into picking your school, but I would encourage you to look around a little more than I did. I think you'll be surprised at what you find.

I know its off-topic for this thread, but I wish someone had encouraged me to do this.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I'm not so sure 'menial labor' is the proper terms either (as it can be offensive). I would use the term 'unskilled labor'.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I don't really like to get involved in controversial topics such as this that involve politics and social status and what not. I try to educate myself about topics like this as much as possible, but it's hard to stay on top of it and to really know what is going on in the world.

I can't say I disagree with some of the criticism/disappointment with Dean's comments, but seriously I think we are taking it out of perspective. It's one thing that one guy said once. Everyone says things that they may regret saying later; everyone makes mistakes. Hearing people say things like "I can't support this any more" is really insulting to FIRST as an organization. After all the great things FIRST has done as an organization are people really willing to turn their backs on it after one comment? I understand words can hurt, but I think this is being taken a little out of perspective. I mean no offense to anyone that may have been offended by Dean's speech, this just my opinion.

Disclaimer: My working experience is minimal, I've never been a laborer and at 17 years old the only thing I've done for work is CAD modeling for an industrial vacuum pump company as a summer job. So my opinion may be off track seeing as I have only been a part of the workforce for a little over a year.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Over the years, it hasn't been only one comment, though this was the most egregious that I have seen.

That said, I am sure that with a little imagination you could imagine all sorts of individual comments that would cause any given group of people to turn their back on an organization and its founder.

I believe very strongly in FIRST. I have founded three teams thus far, and am working on more. I can't imagine a better bang for your buck as far as education dollars -- and minutes -- spent.

...but that doesn't change the fact that this has caused me some difficulties, and that it was completely unnecessary, and completely avoidable. To inspire toward one career, one does not need to cut down another.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I was sitting 45 feet from that podium, and the message that I got from "people don't want those jobs back" was very different than "screw manual labor", especially in context, considering dean was talking about the recent economic downturn. But hey, context is everything, and the internet doesn't need context to make controversy.

Besides, when people only listen to 6 words from a 27 minute speech, and take their toys and go home ... It doesn't seem like you're losing much, really.

People don't walk out of group meetings and empty out their desks because their CEO makes a misstatement, but it seems like that's what your folks are doing. Validating that sort of behavior is counterproductive, no matter how much money or time they give to the organization. Maturity and professionalism are venerated at FIRST - try and remember that. Walking because your pride is hurt by an unscripted oops is neither mature nor professional.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Indeed, that was part of the issue. People who have lost their manual-labor jobs and desperately want them back don't respond well to a guy who brags about his own island and helicopter saying that we don't want those jobs back.

I'm sorry, but if you think I'm using the internet to manufacture some kind of controversy, you have everything all wrong.

A full-time mentor for three years, in a tiny town, who has given thousands of dollars to the team. Your philosophical "not losing much, really" pales in comparison to what our team is actually losing in real life.

Yes, they do. People abandon businesses and causes all the time because of statements seen to be belittling, elitist, discriminatory, or some mixture of the three. All the time. To say otherwise is to be in ignorance of the facts.

Calling my mentors immature and unprofessional is not helping, Isaac.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

That would be relevant if he were only referring to those manual labor jobs, and specifically berating them. He wasn't. He was referring to everyone who's lost a job recently (myself included), to get something better, to find something more exciting, more relevant to today's challenges.. And for me to say that I want my old job back now, I'd have to lie.

Big picture, he was trying to inspire, even those of us who are out of work, to find something better than what we had. So he blooped up. Seriously, big frackin deal.



You want help? Help yourself.

How about this, a novel idea, try and talk to these three guys who are clearly aren't "getting it" right now, and make them get it. You have nothing to lose, and their support to gain. Sitting here on CD is not going to get your mentors back.

There have been some excellent posts earlier in this thread about things you could say, but you just came back and make it sound hopeless. Try Again. The words of your team should be more important to those mentors than the six words from the speech, period.

Quite frankly, nothing Dean has ever said (and I've heard him speak for going on 20 years) would ever make me walk away from the ideals of FIRST and/or the students on my team. I'm sorry those three feel differently.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

You're making a great deal of assumptions about what I am and am not doing, and about my mentors. I don't understand your blatantly antagonistic tone ("novel idea"), nor what you are trying to accomplish with it.

To even state that I am "sitting here on CD" is stunningly accusatory, and I can't really relate to where you are coming from to say such things.

I don't know where this vitriol came from, Isaac, but I want nothing to do with it. I will not be responding to you further.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Deleted.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Isaac, it may help you to hear it from someone who hasn't taken part in this discussion yet, and won't take a side, because both have valid points.

If you can't say something in a nice way, ask yourself if it's worth the trouble to say it.

Whether or not Dean meant any harm or not is irrelevant. A number of people have thought themselves insulted due to the wording used. They have chosen to walk. If they saw your comments about them being immature and unprofessional, that's all they'd need to keep walking.

This conversation was serious. There was good discussion happening. But when someone comes in and says this is "light-hearted conversation", after delivering a number of insults, intentional or not, to both the people involved and some that were not, I think it's a good time to lock the thread for a weekend to let the insulted have time to cool off. (I might also suggest a number of other things, but most of them would just feed the trolls.)

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

Many of us make the same assumption Rick -- nicely stated.
I would take it beyond assumption though and go so far as to say we expect it.
If we expect less, we are prostituting ourselves.
Yeah, get the money, and you can build a robot.
But is that our goal?

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

this popped as a spotlight and seemed ironically connected...

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...59&postcount=6

note the date....

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I have sat back and read what everyone has to say on the subject and now it's my turn.
When I heard the words, I was on Einstein looking out at at all the students and mentors in the audience. The words stung for a moment as I realized I was not the only one that fit the description. I have known manual labor in my life and I know a lot of people today that want a job and can't get one.
Patrick, I would be happy to talk to your sponsors and try to convince them to stay with the program. We need them, desperately and I want a hard working sponsor behind me. PM me and we can set something up. Everyone of us are hard working volunteers who put in long hours at no pay to further a great cause. It doesn't get more manual than that.
Most of the engineers I know work hard at what they do and sometimes that means working with their hands for long hours and little pay.
I am a Broadcast Engineer for a TV station. Friday was a typical day for me, sitting at a computer running Autocad for system design. However, I had to break away and run outside and test the microwave truck, by climbing on the roof and opening the 2 GHz power amp to check for correct operation because that is also my responsibility. I am on 24 hour call and on occasion will work past 24 hours in a day. Yes I do manual labor, because it goes with the job. When I heard Dean's words, I immediately flew back to a conversation with my father. He told me he didn't much care what I wanted to do in life as long as I was good at it and enjoyed what I was doing. Well, I am good at it and I do enjoy it. I know a lot of electricians, assembly line workers, postal employees and camera operators that are exactly the same. Am I shocked at Dean's speech? Not anymore. I know that even Dean can make a mistake, flub his intended message, or get excited in front of 30,000 people. I know a lot of students that need to hear this message from their mentors. Even our greatest idols make mistakes. The good ones, move on and continue to do great things. Let's move on.

Re: Dean Kamen, Manual Laborers, and You
 

I wish Dean Kamen would have read over his speech and thought about it a little more. It is his biggest speech of the year at FIRST. And lets be real, he isn't the worlds best orator. In 7 years, I have yet to stay awake for an entire speech (no offense Dean). I know a few mentors in my area that bet on how long his speech will last. I suppose it is a privilege to hear him speak but if you follow every word of another man, who do you become. It is our own responsibility to take what positive things we want from speeches to help us grow as people individually. What I am trying to say is that I don't think many of the kids took that idea away from the speech (if any were awake to begin with - jk).

One of the biggest helpers to my team in HS outside of the actual teachers was is a manual laborer and I am sure a lot of other teams have stories like this about mentors. Hell, I work as a janitor in a research facility every summer. I love it. And, I'm sure a lot of these other mentors, like mine, wanted to give Dean a piece of their mind.

Again, I just wish he read over his speech a little and would have chosen his words more carefully as to not upset manual laborers because they play a very very role in helping FIRST function, and a very very very large role why the World turns (believe it or not, its not the Segway that does this. or any other scientific reason). And also because in most people eyes', he represents to the rest of the world, the collection of people that make up FIRST