Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

After reading the post titled "2010 Lesson Learned: The Negative" http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=85374 I would like to start a discussion on what people would like to see as a set of possible basic perimeters and above and beyond achievements in safety. Undoubtedly F.I.R.S.T. has a set of basic requirements a team must achieve to gain the Safety Award, but it seems to many here on CD that the original intent of the award has been lost, and that it's mainly a competition of who can yell "ROBOT COMING THROUGH!" the loudest. Now granted it is important that a robot get from the pit to queuing in a safe manor, and that no one be trampled by the cart, but my ears are getting sore from the drilling and music alone at competition, and I don't need a person yelling in my ear that a robot is coming.

Now with that out of the way, what would be some good ideas that you all have for what you would like to see a team that wins the award get. I do not in any way wish to insult the winners of the Safety Awards. What I am getting at is that many teams seem to think the way to win it is to yell that a robot is coming and do it for other teams.

Here are some of what I would outline as the basics for being up for the award:

- All team members are wearing safety glasses at all times in pit.
- Proper and safe attire at all times in pit, as well as training and violation documentation over the course of the year
- Records kept of all accidents over the course of the year and documentation on a cause analysis
- Documentation and certification of tool training of students, and levels based on types of tool: hand tool, power tool, bench tool, etc...
- MSDS Training
- Battery Spill kit and trained user documentation
-Maintaining a safe an organized pit at all times (well as best as can be expected...)
- Fire Extinguisher, eye wash kit, First-Aid Kit, Emergency Burn Kit

Now for the things I would like to see that make a team really stand out:

- Being able to provide other teams safety training material at your pit.
- For the pits that "pop up" hand have a roof and all, let's see a fire suppression system! Dry suppression please, just because you start a fire, doesn't mean I want my cRio all wet!
- Safety Glasses UV container for preventing the spread of germs, and a hand sanitization station! Some of us remember VCU 2004 still, it would have been much safer for us all with some germ reduction precautions.
- A robot cart that has apolite warning system with maybe a light bar of sorts to visually warn us all. And that greatly reduces the amount of lifting and back strain on students.
- Students that actively monitor the level of safety in their pit and make sure that all violations are recorded and coaching is given to assure they do not happen again.

These are just some things I have thrown out as a mentor, I would really rather hear what all the students here on CD think they can do that is really different to promote safety at competition and more importantly at their build space! I know all the guys in green shirts have a good idea what is safe and what isn't, but show more than just what you do at competition. And as a coach I would like to see ways other teams are safe, I'm sure you kids could change my ways of working with students. Heck just read my signature!

Mark

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

I've felt for years that the Safety award gets muddled by the judges having the title "Safety Advisor." If we are going to call the position "Safety Advisor" then they need to be an advisor. That implies the need to strive to have positive interactions with students, to give advice, make suggestions, promote safety by having team members learn to evaluate the risks and identify appropriate solutions. I would love to see the position approached in this way, rather than the Safety Inspector - the rule keeper, who often makes black and white judgements without knowing the justification for those choices.

I'm all for a few solid safety rules - I'm fine with wearing Safety Glasses while in the pits. And closed toed shoes. No open flames, limit the powertools as needed, that sort of thing. And I think it is good for the advisors to have an inspection checklist to highlight hazards. Safety Advisors should have great conversations with the team's Safety Captain on what the team does during the build season, all year round and at competitions to promote safety. The Safety Captain should be able to come away from the conversations with a list of things that the team does well and some suggestions on improvements for the next year.

Mr. Ivey, I like your list! If my team was evaluated that way, we would do well, and the safety culture we try to develop would be reinforced.

But I do have one pet peeve...

Asking for the fire extinguisher. I would love it if an advisor asked the Safety Captain if the team knew where the nearest one was located. My Safety Captain practically begged us to buy one after our regionals last year since he was asked so many times for it. Maintaining a fire extinuisher and ensuring that those who have access to it know how to use it is a lot more complicated than just buying one and sticking it in your gear!

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

I will preface my reply by saying that we won the UL Safety Award in Atlanta 2 years ago. If you check out my signature you will also see that we have been regognized numerious times for our safety program. It's much more than just hollering "robot coming through" (although IMHO is that this is important because of the number of near misses when robots are trying to get to the field)

I love that we are even having this discussion and I for one was delighted at the number of teams that tried to win the award. This tells me that more teams are taking this serious. And that's great because this is a serious matter that no team should take lightly. I believe that in the past, most teams did not take safety education seriuosly. I see that changing.

I too love the list that was started and I have asked our safety captian to share more ideas that we came up with. He is off to a team presentation today with a sponsor but I am sure he will chime in. The one thing that I will say is that safety is a culture and way of life for us. It is not an after thought. We educate students throughout the year on safety knowledge. The students accept and appreciate the info. They have learned that regardless of what they do in life they could loose a job or health if they do not take safety seriously.

We have had GREAT interaction with the safety judges at all competitions. We have learned a great deal from them. They have given advice, made suggestions, promoted safety by having team members learn to evaluate the risks and identify appropriate solutions. All students look to them as an allie. Safety judges have talked to our team's Safety Captain and many other students on what the team does during the build season, all year round and at competitions to promote safety. I agree that the Safety Captain should be able to come away from the conversations with a list of things that the team does well and some suggestions on improvements for the next year. But I also believe that any of your students around the pit should be able to talk inteligently about your safety program (not just the safety captian)

I had a very good conversation with a safety judge a few years ago. He explained that they are looking for teams that walk the walk not just talk the talk. They realize that that many teams download info off the internet to make themselves look good. They want to see teams that are living and doing safety throughout the year.

I for one wish that every team had a fire extinguiser, eye wash station and first aid kit. And I'd like to see all students having knowldge how to use this equipment. We all know that there are risks involved when we are around the robots and this can not be taken lightly.

Conratulations to the team winning the UL Safety Award! Well deserved. We can learn from you and we will.

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

The best thing that could happen to the safety award is for it to go away.

Seriously, it's the most pointless award ever. The safety advisors often offer asinine advice. They're most concerned with finding where you keep your battery spill kit and fire extinguisher and MSDS sheets for loctite and marine grease. They spend more time policing teams for expanding one microinch outside of their pits than they do actually trying to correct unsafe behavior. I can't count how many times we've been told to wear gloves while doing something that would become far more dangerous if wearing gloves.

If a battery spills I'm going to get out of the way and let a professional handle it. If there's a fire I'm going to get out of the way and let a professional handle it (at work I had to take fire extinguisher training and the #1 thing they stressed was to not use the fire extinguisher...call 911 and get the hell out of dodge). I don't need MSDS sheets for the stuff in my pit because I'm not dumb enough to eat loctite or squirt it in my eyes.

The conduct of teams vying for the safety award is the only thing more annoying than the safety advisors. Hearing "ROBOT!!!!!!!" blasted into my ear drums every 30 seconds is not productive. It's turned into a competition of "who can have the most ridiculous safety stuff" and has nothing to do with actual safe behavior. One team had a defibrillator and was touting that their whole team was AED certified...How many thousands of dollars did that cost, for something which has nearly no practical value? (almost all venues would be equipped with one anyways, as would the paramedics which are present at every event). Again, if I was having a heart attack, I want the paramedics helping me, not some 15 year old kid, even if there's no way for it to inadvertently shock me.

The whole award is a complete sham and does not promote actual safety whatsoever. It's just an opportunity for teams to annoy the living daylights out of everyone else.

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

Since 2006 when they first introduced the UL 'Safety Advisors' I've only met one with whom I have had a positive experience with. For the most part every other safety advisor has been rude, intrusive and far from gracious or professional.

We too have shared many of the same experiences that Cory and his team has. We've had 'safety advisors' literally yelling a kids because they didn't have MSDS sheets or they didn't have a battery spill kit. At one event they even lectured the kids on why they needed to have a AED in our pit. Honestly, our kids don't even like talking to 'safety advisors' anymore.

The award has become a joke. It's turning competitions into something resembling a circus. From kids screaming (with no one even remotely near by) "ROBOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ROBOT!!!!!!!!!!!" to every team handing out some kind of flyer that tells me the same information. Seriously, is it really necessary that my team get 50 different flyers on how to be safe in our pit? Do we really need 5 million posters plastered on every wall and bathroom stall reminding you to be safe? After a while, they just become ambient decoration and lose their effect.

Anyways, do you really need an award for being safe? Isn't leaving a competition with all your limbs enough? I know we've never once competed for the 'Safety Award'. We choose to keep our pit clean and safe not because of an award, but because we want a clean pit area that is easy to work in and doesn't pose a safety hazard to our team.

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

I agree that this award should go away or be overhauled. I understand that UL is FIRST "sponsor" but I have also had and heard many poor experiences with Safety Advisors at events.

The worst idea of all however is safety tokens. Our team has been handed safety tokens for no reason at all. I know we've gotten at least one perhaps more as a "reward" for lending a team a part or tool (we didn't ask for it). I have also seen both safety captains and adult mentors of other teams asking, or in some cases demanding safety tokens from students

Encouraging safe behavior in the shop and at competitions is a good thing. Unfortunately, that's not what the safety award is doing right now for most teams.

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

I have been involved with FIRST for 8 years now. Safety should be everyones top priority. (Mr. Ivey, this is a great post I will be bringing back to my students). Let's get back to true safety and not gimmickry and non-sense.

First, some what not-to-dos.

These are injuries from "safety" related events either directly happened to me or a person within 6 feet of me:

Slipped on a "safety" poster that someone had taped up on brick over dusty tile. It fell down, I fell down. ::ouch::

Paper cut from numerous safety sheets handed out in the pits. Dogs and babies wearing safety glasses are cute, but I don't need 10 copies from every team!

Ringing ear from bull-horn anouncing, "robot coming through" (they were asked to stop with the bull-horn shortly there-after). Note a ringing ear means temprorary to permanent hearing damage! As a noise and vibe engineer, my hearing is critical to my job. I shouldn't have to wear ear-plugs because you want to scream in my ear.

Struck by numerous butons and "safety sticks" from Robot Coming through crew. Its a visual aid, not a light saber. Please stop hitting me with them! Your robot has to been less than 4 feet wide, striking me to get a 10 foot wide path is unreasonable.

Struck by a cart because they had a "robot coming through person" and thus I should have jumped out of the way.::ouch:: I will yield the right of way, but aisleways are for pedestrians too. Would you drive a car that way?

Cracked on the shin by a 6' handle sticking out of somone's bot so they could "lift it safely". I was not the only one. They usually hit 3-4 people on the way to EVERY match I watched them move their bot. We have 12 matches in Michigan. 3 of my teammates had bruised shins, and many many others at the event. Note this team won the saftey award for that.::ouch::

A safety advisor burnt her finger on a glue gun because she was moving them (where they had been fine for 2 days) because they were clearly going to cause an accident.::ouch::

My teammate was manhandled by a safety advisor was we were heading to the pits to get safety glasses (note this was at a time of day before tools were allowed).:mad:

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In 2008, our safety rep was continuously being hassled by the safety advisors at our second event. After the third time they accousted her (and nearly brought her to tears over a candy-bar wrapper), I stepped in and wouldn't allow them to talk to her anymore. The irony of this one was that 2 weekends before she had won the UL Safety Captain of the day at a different event. They came back for a fourth visit, and we had to get the regional commitee involved to stop the harassment.

I am all for safety and safe practices, but after the 2008 reprimand, we haven't had a safety captain because we would prefer the advisors give us the tongue lashing and not the kids. If the student is being un-safe, stop the behaviour and address it. There is no reason a student should be brought to tears because they set a small bag of chips on top of the tool box while going through system checks.
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As Dean says in his speeches, you will encourage the behaviors you reward. I applaud anyone given the safety award for having rigourous safety training of their students and "0 injuries" recorded for the year.
I applaud teams that win the award that make real safety a priority.
However, the Gimmickry really should stop. Especially the behaviours that are leading to waste and injury, not to mention disdain from experienced members of the community.

Team XYZ: "This is our safety Plow. It knocks men, women and small children out of our way so that the robot can move through the crowd safely and swiftly."
Me: "Uh How can you see around that giant plow. That doesn't seem safe, couldn't you just go slower?"
Team XYZ: "Clearly it is improved safety. We filed the edges of our plow and installed a 140 dB fog horn so that everyone in the next county knows when we are comng through. Plus we painted safety first on it!"
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What would I like to see?
How about a team winning the award for handing out souveneir (sp) safety glasses at an event so that people going home can have a pair of safety glasses and remember the event as a positive experience.
How about "pull" style carts so that the person or persons moving the bot are the first point of impact, and not the cart.
Carts of reasonable size and mass. If your cart needs a hemi to assist it through the pits, and technically the crew needs a CDL to operate it, its too big!
How about UL providing a booth with safety videos including a brief history of why the safe practices are around and the dangers in the workplace that have been improved.
How about a review of teams testing procedures that ensure everyone is clear before the robot eats someone.

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

I have no problem with the idea of a safety award. It's just...broken.

On our team, at least, 90% of injuries happen during build, not at competition. At competition, many teams never use a power tool aside from a hand drill - so what exactly are we judging?

I think that the safety award is best posed as an opt-in presentation (Chairman's Award format). Show and talk about the steps your team takes during build season to be safe.

This way those who don't care about the award won't be hassled, and those who do will have to do more than shout "ROBOT!" to win it.

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

In my opinion, there shouldn't be a Safety Award. I haven't always felt this way but I do now. There should be guidelines and where necessary, rules - in place for the teams to know and be aware of before they arrive at the competition. If the guidelines and rules are ignored by teams, they can be addressed at the venue by speaking with one or two of the mentors of the team. If the Safety Award is a permanent fixture of the FRC competition - reserve a special recognition for a team that really gets it and role models it at the competition. The award may not be given out at every competition because there may not be a team present that gets it. By making it harder to come by, teams will pay more attention to the real value of earning a Safety Award instead of everyone vying for one that they know someone is going to get and they will continue to litter pits and venues with paper and noise. Safety should be a way of life for a team, not a trophy bling incentive. That part of the reason for safety is getting lost. When teams are working in the shops during build season and they are practicing safety - they don't get rewards every time they put on ear protectors or safety glasses. It is an expectation and a learned habit that should become ingrained in them. Their shop skills and their safety habits go hand-in-hand and become routine.

Jane

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

I agree with some of the posts that said that the award isn't a bad idea, just the implementation is broken.


The main purpose of the award is to keep safety on everyone's mind. A very common industrial practice. Just telling people "do this, don't do this" doesn't work well. You need incentive. If you get rid of the award, safety practices go away. And not just at the competitions but during the build as well.

Let me challenge everyone here. FIRST is concerned about reducing safety incidents. For those who want to eliminate the award, how would you then encourage safe practices among the teams?

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

I think IKE hit it on the head. To many things are going around to promote safetly that are just getting in the way and actually becomming unsafe or annoying. Plus look at all the paper teams waste and just through away after a match with all of those flyers that go around. Last year our team got handed 3 different brooms FROM THE SAME TEAM. It is just a waste what some teams hand out trying to get the safety award.

One of the other things I see is when a teams starts to designate people from their as safety cops at the events. They have thier students patrol high traffic areas, and they only thing they do is get in the way. If you were not standing there people can walk on one side and the robots can go on the other. We all have eyes and keep out of each others way. Instead of making the kids be a safety cop and just stand in one spot all day, let them walk around and see matches and have fun. All they are doing at that high traffic area is making it even more unsafe.

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

I find that a safety captain is literally all you need.
The safety award, I find kinda unnecessary.
I find it to be slightly discriminated.... I thought our safety captain did a terrific job keeping everybody in line (especially me..) yet there was no credit for her.

This is all coming from a very inexperienced 1st year student on a FRC team,
but when I first found out about the award, I wasn't really sure why as it is there. I was enormously confused as to why there were tokens. Why can't we just share stuff? Isn't this one of FIRST's goals? Cooperation between teams?

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

This sounds like a common confusion. I think I've read posts on several occasions that mistakenly tie the token system into the actual consideration for the safety award. The safety token "program" is a completely separate entity from the judged Safety Award. A team might earn the Safety Award and also do well in the token program, but obtaining the most tokens does not mean you win the Safety Award. This has been the case for us in Atlanta - we've gotten the most safety tokens on several occasions but have never won the Championship Safety Award.

The token award gets you the yellow hardhat pins. Winning the Safety Award gets you the trophy and the oval "Safety FIRST" pins.

Both safety advisors and teams are given safety tokens to hand out. I think the tokens are treated very differently between the two groups:

1. The safety advisors use them for the original purpose - a way for safety advisors to spot-reward teams who demonstrate safe work practices. I don't see any problems here.

2. Often, teams use them in ways that defy the original intent of the program. Some might just give them away without much thought or not give them out at all, but others use them to more creative effect. For instance, one of our safety escorts was actually engaging in written contracts with teams to be their exclusive safety escort in exchange for their safety tokens. I'm not sure if the other teams were mocking him or were serious, but for me personally, this is simultaneously a :) and a :rolleyes: moment. :) because the student was socializing with numerous other teams and was having a lot of fun doing it. Our team had fun with him over this, as previously, he was not one of our more outgoing and motivated students.

However, I also knew this was not the original intent of the safety token program, so there was a little :rolleyes: going on, too. It's not something I lose sleep over - if people treat the token program in a more lighthearted, informal fashion, it's not a bad thing to have around. This system is not a *bad* thing, as long as judges continue to not consider tokens in their Safety Award consideration.

In addition, I feel that more often than not, the recipients of the Safety Award are actually being recognized for genuine demonstrations of safety excellence.

Yearly Safety Escort Endorsement - I do believe safety escorts, or a team person designated to say "robot coming through!" has a place in the pits. The practice is more effective and necessary in some venues than in others. They probably aren't going away unless explicitly prohibited by FIRST. For those of you who can't stand them, yer just going to have to deal with it. What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. ;)

Unnecessary announcement volume of "robot coming through" is a big issue with me, as I've been the victim of it in the past. I've told our safety personnel to use only as much volume as necessary to get the immediate attention of people in front of you, but that doesn't mean they exceed their tolerance band periodically. If you believe any of our people get too loud, politely ask them to tone it down. If they persist, visit our pit and let a mentor know. If you do neither but do persist in posting how much you hate them on these boards, I have zero sympathy for you.

I will say that some other teams were being downright obnoxious with their shouts - they weren't trying to clear a path - they were trying to be morons...and succeeding.

Finally, even though my team has won far more Safety Awards than I'd ever like to see, I've also seen some of the safety advisors put the team and the safety captain in particular through some really pointless and sometimes downright insidious lines of questioning. The Spanish Inquisition would be proud. It appears many other teams have faced similar experiences.

I suppose you're going to have that kind of unfortunate experience every so often with volunteers placed in a position of power and authority over teams. Some inspectors and dare I suggest, referees, act the same way. Not everyone will take to the responsibility the correct way. If genuine reports of that kind of behavior out of safety advisors become too frequent, then I agree that changes need to be made, and FIRST needs to hear about it. Just try not to let the bad actions of a few cloud your judgement of the entire group or the notion of safety recognition at a competition.

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

Though the first list is good, I'm not really sold on a couple of those items.

Frstly, I would be wary of any sort of fire suppression system. Those take skill to design, build and set up—and unless there's some sort of expertise behind it, I would be concerned that it's more of a safety risk than fire. (Dry chemical powder is an irritant, and you're dealing with pressurized gases.) And even if it is safe, what do you do when you trigger it by accident? You're probably 50 times more likely to set it off accidentally than to need it for fire supression.

Also, while sanitation in general is a good idea, norovirus doesn't really die when you use an alcohol-based sanitizer—you need something stronger, and consequently more expensive. (That's allegedly what afflicted VCU.) To be perfectly blunt, toilet facilities sanitized every few hours and furnished with antiseptic soap would be much more effective against the usual gastrointestinal infections. (Also, if you don't wash your hands, you're doing it wrong.)

Re: Safety Award: What would you like to see?
 

I'm the only person in the world who has had favorable experiences with UL Safety Advisors, I guess...

At Wisconsin and Minnesota, Safety Advisors were pretty nice people. They engaged our Safety Advisor, spent a good amount of time afar rather than harassing anyone, and generally were helpful or challenging (in a good way). The awards given at these regionals have not gone to obnoxious teams or teams that have silly safety flyers or signs, but mostly to 2062, which is a team that wins the Safety Award the way one should... by being safe.