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-   -   pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85612)

MWB 01-05-2010 00:41
pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 

RyanS 01-05-2010 00:44
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Looks nice. Are you planning to broach the center with a hex or key? If so you might consider indexing the broach so that the "halves" broaches line up. This would allow the halves to be truly interchangeable.

Rion Atkinson 01-05-2010 00:49
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanS (Post 959333)
Looks nice. Are you planning to broach the center with a hex or key? If so you might consider indexing the broach so that the "halves" broaches line up. This would allow the halves to be truly interchangeable.
Looks nice to me. ^_^ Course... I'm not the mechanical genus... My questions are only about the CAD program. Which one are you using?

Also, do you think you could get away with fewer spokes?

-Rion

MWB 01-05-2010 00:56
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formerly Famous (Post 959334)
Looks nice to me. ^_^ Course... I'm not the mechanical genus... My questions are only about the CAD program. Which one are you using?

Also, do you think you could get away with fewer spokes?

-Rion
I am using Solidworks 2009

Yes, i could but i liked the look of 10 versus 6 spokes for some reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanS (Post 959333)
Looks nice. Are you planning to broach the center with a hex or key? If so you might consider indexing the broach so that the "halves" broaches line up. This would allow the halves to be truly interchangeable.
Yes since my upload i have added the hex broach and the halves line up perfectly. The purpose was to have the halves be interchangeable.

R.C. 01-05-2010 01:01
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Nice Wheel,

How much does it weigh with bolts?

-RC

MWB 01-05-2010 01:04
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.C. (Post 959337)
Nice Wheel,

How much does it weigh with bolts?

-RC
0.42lbs With bolts

0.36lbs Without bolts

MWB 01-05-2010 01:07
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.C. (Post 959337)
Nice Wheel,

How much does it weigh with bolts?

-RC
Is there any chance that you have the AM Shifter Gen 2 CADDED with the gear teeth? If you do can you send it to me?

Thanks RC

sanddrag 01-05-2010 01:09
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
My my that looks mighty familiar. ;) I too wonder about your plans for the bore, and the necessity for symmetrical halves. You might consider not having the bore extend through both halves. Timing/indexing a broach is a pain. Also, you may find it not worth it to have the wheel be two halves at all, if simplifying manufacturing is your goal.

Eugene Fang 01-05-2010 01:10
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Nice! looks kinda familiar! Haha =)



I see you're going "clamp style" for tread, but you need a little groove along your rim that captures the tread so it doesn't fall out (higher quality picture here where you can see the groove better http://604robotics.com/Blog/wp-conte...2/IMG_0296.jpg). I like how you made both halves symmetrical for ease of machining, however, what we do is make them asymmetrical so you can have a locating groove instead of using the screws/axle to center the two halves.

Also, you might be able to get away with less spokes. 7 is a cool number.

Keep up the great work!

MWB 01-05-2010 01:12
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddrag (Post 959341)
My my that looks mighty familiar. ;) I too wonder about your plans for the bore, and the necessity for symmetrical halves. You might consider not having the bore extend through both halves. Timing/indexing a broach is a pain. Also, you may find it not worth it to have the wheel be two halves at all, if simplifying manufacturing is your goal.
Well i was thinking of broaching it while it was assembled or just simply keying it. The two halves is so that you can clamp the tread along with rivits for a better grip.

R.C. 01-05-2010 01:16
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWB (Post 959338)
0.42lbs With bolts

0.36lbs Without bolts
Ah,

I would try to aim for about ~.3 lbs. How thick and wide are those spokes?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MWB (Post 959339)
Is there any chance that you have the AM Shifter Gen 2 CADDED with the gear teeth? If you do can you send it to me?

Thanks RC
Yes I do have one, when I get home tomorrow I'll make sure to put it up on the CAD Library.

-RC

Eugene Fang 01-05-2010 01:22
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.C. (Post 959344)
I would try to aim for about ~.3 lbs.
Yeah I agree. As you can see from the pictures I posted, the back of our wheel is just a rim, which saves weight. It simplifies the broaching issue too. By the way, those 6" wheels I posted were 0.28 pounds each.

MWB 01-05-2010 01:23
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.C. (Post 959344)
Ah,

I would try to aim for about ~.3 lbs. How thick and wide are those spokes?




Yes I do have one, when I get home tomorrow I'll make sure to put it up on the CAD Library.

-RC


Each half has a 1/8 spoke thickness and a 1/4 combined thickness.
The spokes are 1/4 in wide each.

Thanks again RC

MWB 01-05-2010 01:25
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneF (Post 959346)
Yeah I agree. As you can see from the pictures I posted, the back of our wheel is just a rim, which saves weight. It simplifies the broaching issue too. By the way, those 6" wheels I posted were 0.28 pounds each.
WOW thats light!

Bannanakin 01-05-2010 01:32
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneF (Post 959346)
Yeah I agree. As you can see from the pictures I posted, the back of our wheel is just a rim, which saves weight. It simplifies the broaching issue too. By the way, those 6" wheels I posted were 0.28 pounds each.
The CAD says it is .28 pounds, but when I weighed one it was .23 pounds. :D

Akash Rastogi 01-05-2010 01:39
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Psh, 604 needs to bring these babies back.:cool:


Cory 01-05-2010 10:40
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWB (Post 959343)
Well i was thinking of broaching it while it was assembled or just simply keying it. The two halves is so that you can clamp the tread along with rivits for a better grip.
There's really no point to making a two piece wheel without having the undercut groove to capture the tread. It won't be any different than a one piece wheel without it.

MWB 01-05-2010 15:01
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 959387)
There's really no point to making a two piece wheel without having the undercut groove to capture the tread. It won't be any different than a one piece wheel without it.
Yeah i know ive added it since i just forgot to do it when i took that picture. Thanks Cory

=Martin=Taylor= 01-05-2010 15:35
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Someone explain to me why, in this day and age, anyone would bother making custom wheels. :confused:

Eugene Fang 01-05-2010 15:44
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by =Martin=Taylor= (Post 959427)
Someone explain to me why, in this day and age, anyone would bother making custom wheels. :confused:
Because they're cool! Although I have to say AM Performance wheels are really good, especially their price. You could get custom wheels about 40% lighter though. If that matters.

http://www.andymark.biz/am-0393.html

RMS11 01-05-2010 15:52
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Ya, we made them this year for weight reasons. Also, Andy Mark 4" performance wheels do not come with the bolt pattern, making direct drive wheels much harder to set up.

Cory 01-05-2010 15:56
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by =Martin=Taylor= (Post 959427)
Someone explain to me why, in this day and age, anyone would bother making custom wheels. :confused:
Because we would have spent $1800+shipping to buy AndyMark Performance Wheels this year...and once we got them we would have had to do secondary machining on them anyways.

Instead we made our own for $300 plus ~20 hours of my time.

MWB 01-05-2010 16:27
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 959431)
Because we would have spent $1800+shipping to buy AndyMark Performance Wheels this year...and once we got them we would have had to do secondary machining on them anyways.

Instead we made our own for $300 plus ~20 hours of my time.
How many wheels did you make for yourselves and other teams? Im just curious.

R.C. 01-05-2010 16:41
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by =Martin=Taylor= (Post 959427)
Someone explain to me why, in this day and age, anyone would bother making custom wheels. :confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 959431)
Because we would have spent $1800+shipping to buy AndyMark Performance Wheels this year...and once we got them we would have had to do secondary machining on them anyways.

Instead we made our own for $300 plus ~20 hours of my time.
Martin,

Cory is definitely right, we spent about $1500 plus shipping for a set of wheels for our bot, practice and rookie team.

They also weighed in at 1lb per wheel for a 6 inch wheel. Even with modd'd IFI wheels they were way tooo heavy.

For next season we will be making custom wheels unless "standard" wheels (2009) make a return.

-RC

Cory 01-05-2010 16:42
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWB (Post 959437)
How many wheels did you make for yourselves and other teams? Im just curious.
We made a total of 72 wheels.

Jamie Kalb 01-05-2010 16:43
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 959431)
Because we would have spent $1800+shipping to buy AndyMark Performance Wheels this year...and once we got them we would have had to do secondary machining on them anyways.

Instead we made our own for $300 plus ~20 hours of my time.
Hey Cory,

I totally understand and agree with what you're saying, but I'm curious as to how much design time the wheels took. Is that included in that 20 hours? Design time was a huge limiting factor for my team this year, and it was probably the number one reason we used off-the-shelf wheels.

Brandon Holley 01-05-2010 16:45
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Kalb (Post 959444)
Hey Cory,

I totally understand and agree with what you're saying, but I'm curious as to how much design time the wheels took. Is that included in that 20 hours? Design time was a huge limiting factor for my team this year, and it was probably the number one reason we used off-the-shelf wheels.
Wheels are really not that demanding in terms of "design time". A good wheel can be pumped through CAD, verified with FEA, re-CAD-ed and ready for manufacturing in a couple hours.

-Brando

P.S.- Obviously this could vary depending on the wheels you actually design. I'm just speaking from experience in terms of the wheels I've designed in the past.

NickE 01-05-2010 16:47
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Kalb (Post 959444)
I totally understand and agree with what you're saying, but I'm curious as to how much design time the wheels took. Is that included in that 20 hours? Design time was a huge limiting factor for my team this year, and it was probably the number one reason we used off-the-shelf wheels.
The design of our wheels was based off of previous wheels we have made, although it is the first one-piece 4" wheel. It probably took 20-30 minutes to design the wheel.

Akash Rastogi 01-05-2010 16:49
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Holley (Post 959445)
Wheels are really not that demanding in terms of "design time". A good wheel can be pumped through CAD, verified with FEA, re-CAD-ed and ready for manufacturing in a couple hours.

-Brando

P.S.- Obviously this could vary depending on the wheels you actually design. I'm just speaking from experience in terms of the wheels I've designed in the past.
Jamie,

The Poofs/RAWC also have years of experience perfecting and optimizing their wheel designs year after year. Their standardized drivetrain which is then adapted to the game on a yearly basis is something that always gives them an edge in both manufacturing time and during the robot design process (much the same as Team 25). If you check out their older wheels you can see a pretty cool "evolution in design" process.

.

=Martin=Taylor= 01-05-2010 16:52
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 959431)
Because we would have spent $1800+shipping to buy AndyMark Performance Wheels this year...and once we got them we would have had to do secondary machining on them anyways.

Instead we made our own for $300 plus ~20 hours of my time.
Our traction wheels came in the 2008 kit. So we didn't spend any money on them (besides registration), and they took 0 hours to make.

The kit wheels are highly under-rated.

I see custom wheels as more of a fashion statement then a practicality. They certainly are impressive and cool :cool: Props for making awesome things.

Cory 01-05-2010 16:55
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by =Martin=Taylor= (Post 959448)
Our traction wheels came in the 2008 kit. So we didn't spend any money on them (besides registration), and they took 0 hours to make.

The kit wheels are highly under-rated.

I see custom wheels as more of a fashion statement then a practicality. They certainly are impressive and cool :cool: Props for making awesome things.
Our drive system does not lend itself well to the kit wheels. it would have been more work for us to modify them (and less elegant) than making our own.

MWB 01-05-2010 17:03
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickE (Post 959446)
The design of our wheels was based off of previous wheels we have made, although it is the first one-piece 4" wheel. It probably took 20-30 minutes to design the wheel.
Yeah Nick those wheels took me about an hour to design, and im a rookie. So they barely took any time at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory (Post 959443)
We made a total of 72 wheels.
Thats pretty insane.

NickE 01-05-2010 17:07
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWB (Post 959451)
Thats pretty insane.
8 blue wheels went to 233 for their practice bot and the 64 black wheels were divided up between 254, 968 & 1868.
It sounds like a ton but they're pretty fast to make when its only 2 operations on the mill.

MWB 01-05-2010 17:10
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickE (Post 959454)
8 Went to 233 for their practice bot and the rest we divided up between 254, 968 & 1868.
It sounds like a ton but they're pretty fast to make when its only 2 operations on the mill.
Yeah, still alot for a team that has one 3 axis machine from 1990.

NickE 01-05-2010 17:26
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWB (Post 959456)
Yeah, still alot for a team that has one 3 axis machine from 1990.
Its a lot for any team, but when other teams make parts for us in return, it all balances out.

Akash Rastogi 01-05-2010 17:39
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
A bit off topic, but was team 60 the original source of this type of design?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=31304

Cory 01-05-2010 18:51
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 959460)
A bit off topic, but was team 60 the original source of this type of design?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=31304
Yes.

Triple B 01-05-2010 21:59
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
actually Nick, we only have 7 blue wheels, no wonder our practice bot makes such a good left hand turn, oh wait, we should have done that in 08.
mike d

O'Sancheski 02-05-2010 12:46
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWB (Post 959339)
Is there any chance that you have the AM Shifter Gen 2 CADDED with the gear teeth? If you do can you send it to me?

Thanks RC
If you still haven't found the AM Supershifter's or regular transmissions here's the link

http://team1323.com/cad/pages/motors-gearboxes.html

BTW... The wheel looks very nice... I am working on a few wheel designs and a chassis that I will have posted soon... I hope

MWB 02-05-2010 18:05
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Sancheski (Post 959592)
If you still haven't found the AM Supershifter's or regular transmissions here's the link

http://team1323.com/cad/pages/motors-gearboxes.html

BTW... The wheel looks very nice... I am working on a few wheel designs and a chassis that I will have posted soon... I hope
Thanks, but i was looking for the Gen 2 shifter.

sgreco 02-05-2010 18:22
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWB (Post 959662)
Thanks, but i was looking for the Gen 2 shifter.
You can get the steps from the AndyMark Website.

http://www.andymark.biz/am-0076.html

Under CAD files you can download it.

MWB 02-05-2010 21:32
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgreco (Post 959664)
You can get the steps from the AndyMark Website.

http://www.andymark.biz/am-0076.html

Under CAD files you can download it.
I have that, but I want the gear teeth. Those are just round with no teeth.

Borisdamole 03-05-2010 08:40
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
if you plan on hexing them (as you said you were) I would HIGHLY recommend roughing the hex while the wheel is on the CNC....

Having made hex broached wheels quite a few times, we have found if you rough the hex out with a .250 cutter, then use the broach, it is easier on the broach, and who ever is broaching....

For your design, it would also help orient the hex on all the parts....

MWB 06-05-2010 19:32
Re: pic: 4 Inch Wheel Design
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borisdamole (Post 959827)
if you plan on hexing them (as you said you were) I would HIGHLY recommend roughing the hex while the wheel is on the CNC....

Having made hex broached wheels quite a few times, we have found if you rough the hex out with a .250 cutter, then use the broach, it is easier on the broach, and who ever is broaching....

For your design, it would also help orient the hex on all the parts....
Yeah thanks for the idea. i indexed the broach to one of the spokes


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