Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

My team personally didn't put much time into the robot, because some of the elements weren't done until the regional, which would explain our bad performance. I'd estimate about 100 hours.

Personally, I think the restriction is a bit pointless, ratdude's idea makes sense. You could try telling admin that you have grade restrictions in place if you try his idea, and see if they give you some leeway.


Thaine

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

And as one of those students who has focused just on school and robotics (this was the first season that I focused on other things, such as a job and friends, too. Still a bit over-constrained, but that's a different problem entirely), I mostly agree with this. I don't believe that I've become socially deficient, but it does take a huge toll both physically and psychologically. There are plenty of people who can attest that I've had many late nights, crammed many projects and papers in at the last minute, have broken down in tears because of stress, and have had extreme bouts of pessimism over the past three years, particularly in the winter months. My grades suffered. And it really sucks. It's also a hard trap to get out of, which is why I haven't escaped yet. You would think that being sick for three consecutive months would convince me to never do it again, but it doesn't work like that.

A hard cap could do some people (like myself) a lot of good, and prevent what's happened to me from happening to others, but it's not for everyone. We have a minimum requirement for hours, but the only reward for racking up that many hours is getting to travel with the team (we assumed that parents wouldn't want to drive their kids 6 hours up to Traverse City if they could just as easily have gotten a ride with the team). Minimums are good, maximums...not always. There will never be a policy that will work good for everyone. I think that we can all see where the administration is coming from, and it may be a drastic difference from what you're used to, but you'll have to adjust to them. If you can prove to the school that your team is mature enough to handle the change respectfully and understandably, maybe in a few years you'll be able to convince them to allow your team a little more flexibility in hours.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Agreed. Though many of us categorize our time by "at Robotics" and "anywhere else", we need to keep in mind that there are a myriad of other situations calling our attention. I've learned that the hard way this past build season.

I managed to actually spend more hours with robotics this year despite having a job and an increased workload at school. It was effective; I was able to help both divisions of our team with countless projects, while still logging a ton of shop hours and fulfilling my specific responsibilities as a manager on our team (every so often). Furthermore, I maintained an A+ average in all my classes (which were all honors courses).

To do this, something had to give. Unfortunately, I sacrificed time with my family during those six weeks. I was off to school at 8am, off to work at 4PM, then back to school until 11, 12, sometimes 1am. There was even a stint this year where I spent 35-38 hours straight (can't quite remember, it's a bit of a blur) at the school with a few mentors and teammates. Inevitably however, my relationship with my family began to turn sour. I would come home after being gone for 12 hours, completely exhausted and often times frustrated, and my family was forced to deal with my foul state of mind. Even my own mother came to me and asked whether I was using drugs or drinking, because she simply could not explain how I had changed so much. Of course I was doing neither, but nonetheless, it speaks to the drastic transformation I had gone through because of the stress.

My priorities weren't straight: robotics came before anything. Frankly, though I don't endorse the idea, I will admit that with a cap on my hours I would have probably helped my state of mind and being.

Be mindful of all the factors that a teen should worry about. School, family and friends require just as much attention as getting your competition robot assembled, the difference being that your teammates cannot fix/repair your relationships.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Time caps are limiting. In the real world, you work however long it takes until your project gets done by the deadline.
But, one thing no one mentioned that surprises me: Work smarter, not harder.
If you can't shake this ban, then (I'm about to sound cruel) live with it [/cruel]. Do what you can when you can. If you can't build for the first hour, write chairman's, get homework done, CAD... Do whatever you can do without loud-noised tools. At the school we work at, we can't work (with power tools) until a mentor shows up. That can be up to an hour and a half after the students get there. What do we do in the meantime? Homework, I set up the welding booth, we get stuff out of storage, we get team input on important things, we eat...

Also, I have to echo that it can't be a bad thing. If I'm missing a single assignment during build, my parents don't let me attend meetings. I let everything else go during robotics: I eat/sleep poorly. My friends can't wait till after my first regional. I couldn't have a job because there was no way I could work around it. My parents (and friends and teachers) would LOVE to see this put into effect.

I'm not saying I'd be thrilled to have this put in effect with my team, but I'm saying that it might just be a hurdle. You're gunna have to jump.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I've been thinking about starting a thread proposing a FIRST 'enforced' cap on work hours during buildseason. I'm a big believer (although not always a follower) on the idea of balance in life. As several has stated, having an unbalanced life (or 6 weeks) for FIRST and school is not healthy. I've heard stories/rumors of teams working past midnight on school nights and working over 40 hours a week (on top of school/job). I do not see how students can come close to the recommened 8 hours of sleep a night and complete their homework and fulfill their social needs. It is just not healthy.

What is the causes teams to work soo long and hard? I think it has to do building a competitive robot and competing with the elite teams. I suspect that the time committment has increased throughout the years. In order to compete with the elite teams that spend a ton of time working, you also have to spend a ton of time working. Those elite teams, who want to keep their edge, work harder and longer. Eventually, everyone is working an unhealthy amount.

Why not cap the amount of time to, say, 30 hours a week and no later than 10PM on school nights? Will students be less inspired? Will fewer mentors get burned out and thus stay with the program longer? FIRST already gives us restrictions to the size and weight of the robot, why not restrict how long we can work on the robot? I believe the NCAA has limits the amount of time football teams can practice, so the practice is not unheard of. Additionally, atleast in Wisconsin, minors cannot work more than some limit of hours per week or past some hour on school nights, during the school year.


I'm not sure if I would support a rule that limits the amount of time a team can work on a robot, but I think it certainly has its advantages; mainly it is more healthy for the students, probably will not result in less-inspiration, and will increase the likelyhood of mentors sticking with FIRST.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I am not sure 14-18 year old students should be allowed to make that decision. It is the same reason we 'shield' them from cigarettes and alcohol. I'm not sure they are experienced enough to make those decisions.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Team 341 only has 27 build hours per week over 5 days per week. This works for us and hopefully can work for you. Its important that everyone stays healthy and happy. We manage to stay competitive by following a few simple ideas. Just an FYI, we build in a high school wood shop with simple tools and create a robot (and twin) that is 95% student built every year, so this can be done by anyone.

Here are a few suggestions:
* More team members, better trained for less hours per person
People often ask why our team is so large, the answer is build season

* Organize your team and divide the labor tasks in the fall
Students can practice their given task in a low pressure environment in Sept - Dec.

* Plan and design very, very carefully before you build
You can erase pencil, but its really hard to erase aluminum

* Parallel building is hard but productive
If you can find a partner school or a local company try it.
We work with our regional tech school, North Montco Technical Career Center

* Have at least one, if not two mandatory days off.
You will be more, not less productive

* We do not work past 11 PM
For safety and sanity reasons, I feel that it is dangerous to work too late into the night.
It makes for great stories, but actually puts everyone at risk for a serious accident

When we first instituted these work restrictions many years ago, many coaches and students resisted the notion.
But I promise you that the restrictions will make you work harder and smarter and give everyone some much needed rest.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Though it is popular opinion, this school policy of barring people from working on the robot is ridiculous. You should suggest the common "gradecheck" for a student. If the student keeps up with their work they should be able to work on the robot. Just my 2 cents.

We kids should be allowed to manage our own time to an extent.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

i will add, in addition to the grade restrictions i said earlier, we also have fridays off (unless we are in a crunch) and sundays are optional. 6pm-9pm weeknights other than friday, 10am-4pm saturady, 1pm-4/5pm sunday (opt.).

for me though, robotics is my social life during build season. i could lathe parts, solder circuits, weld frames, etc. forever... maybe i'm too weird :goofy:

now, our team is not as big as say, 217, 341, etc. we just don't have the interest (most consider us dweebs at the former corn field known as Harrison High school). this year had some hope, as we got a couple of people not in the usual robotics crowd involved.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I would tend to disagree again.

I raise my 4, 7, and 9 year old children the same way. If their room isn't clean, they don't get to go to their friends. If they haven't done their homework, they don't get to watch TV. They've learned they have responsibilities and the penalty for not taking care of those responsibilities is to not get to go do 'the fun stuff'.

Flunking a test, or even letting a grade slip a bit in highschool isn't the end of the world. It is, however, a great way to drive the point home. It's also a great way to bring a little perspective into their world: I've seen kids break down into tears when they got a C... that just isn't right.

The key is to teach them decision making skills that will allow them to make the right choices. Shielding them from making the small unimportant mistakes like flunking a test or falling asleep and doing poorly on an assignment really doesn't teach them anything.

Let them be kids and make mistakes. Just try to stop them from trying cigarettes and alcohol before the end of highschool. Let me know how that goes :yikes:

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Time off from the shop is not a bad thing. AT ALL.

Every year, some of our most unsolvable technical problems get solved while I am at the store, talking on the phone or online one-on-one with other mentors or students, or in the shower (which, I'm convinced, is where Einstein must have figured out general relativity).

Al posted our schedule, and though we certainly add to it as the deadline nears, having scheduled days off forces you to gather your thoughts. You can walk into your shop the next day with a plan and you can use those hours 3x more effectively than you would have otherwise.

Sometimes stepping away from the machine (whether to do some CAD designing or just to spend time with your wife) is the right answer.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I think it is important to know what the priorities are in order to set some restrictions. For us this is the order of importance for our students.
1. Family commitments and what ever parents have decided.
2. School, no leeway here. If your grades are falling, you don't work, you don't travel, you don't drive the robot.
3. Other things that make life worth living.
4. Robotics.

With that said, during the build, students are required to attend Monday night meetings, 5:30-8:30 PM for attendance, team info, contact with the lead teachers and whatever the subteams have planned. Sub teams have at least one other night during the week and students are sent packing at 8:30PM. Friday is date night for adults and students so no meetings. Saturday is generally all day but we expect students to bring homework so they have something to do when not working. Sundays are generally for church and family with some optional time at the playing field. The Saturday before ship is usually a long day but students must leave before curfew if they drive and whatever time the parents have set. Midnight is a hard out for anyone that isn't required to leave earlier. Sunday before ship is a pre-ship party/scrimmage with as many other teams can make it during the day. Typically students are asked to sign up for shifts to help setup and start matches, continue with matches and helping other teams, and cleanup. Five or six is the hard out on that day because the rest of us are dead at that point.
The greatest number of errors, safety related injuries, breakage of parts all occur when people are overworked. Going home helps the robot, the team and your grades.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

If the issue is about grades, then there should be a policy limiting work if your grades are bad (to not punish people who have no grade issue). If the issue is the members having a well balanced life, they should be allowed to determine how they spend their time when it comes to extra cirricular vs social. That is NOT something that school administrators should try control.

I'm biased, I put a ton of work into the team and wouldn't survive on a limit. But I don't really see where a cap is a good idea when put up against some other options.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

There's a lot of promise in this statement. Identifying where your team can work to improve and become more efficient. It is also reflective of a mature approach to helping resolve some of the concerns regarding the new limits on time. There are teams all over the world who deal with time limits and constraints that they haven't imposed on themselves. Receiving the KoP later than other teams - weather that impacts on the build - problems that arise with which the team must contend with. Having a system developed and in place to deal with situations and emergencies that arise - is good practice. Having to develop the system for the situation or emergency that is impacting the team during the build, is difficult but has a huge learning curve that comes with it. Your team can spend time now addressing how you will manage the time next season. You view the new plan as one of limitations and restrictions but what if you look at it as opportunity to develop in areas of time management and organization? You could write down your timeline, showing how build has progressed during the 6 week build period in the past. Then develop a new timeline projecting how it will work in the upcoming season. Make notes and then schedule an appointment with your administrator to talk about and discuss the impact on the build for the team. This would help develop communications between the team and the administration and it would also reflect the maturity of the team leadership in dealing with change. The cup is half full.

Jane

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Agreed! Most if not all MAYHEM students do not show up to every single meeting and miss 1-2 per week out of 6 at the least. Many of us have work (I have two jobs), prior commitments with our Churches such as youth group and other activities, school, and just about every student will go skiing at least once per week. I don't know how some kids can get up in the morning, go to school, then to robotics right after school, home, homework, bed, repeat for 6+ weeks. Part of me thinks this schedule is what causes burnouts in week 5 when all kids have been doing is school and robotics non-stop. Especially teams who meet 7 days a week (we take Sundays off).

I would agree that you should try to get more hours/available time from this decision, but remember that they should have a balance outside of FRC like they do for the other 46 weeks of the year, like spending time with your family. Good luck!