Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

What clubs, student organizations, and athletic teams do you know of that have more individualized policies?

We have to also keep in mind that FIRST teams in schools are a good thing, not a bad thing. We should hope to keep the welcome mat out and firmly in place rather than wear out that welcome. It's up to the team to do its part to work with their school and keep it positive and working towards a support network of faculty and administrators helping the team succeed.

Jane

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I come from smaller schools so my experience is different, but generally when academic performance falls, administration may encourage / make students drop clubs until their grades rebound, even if they're not at probationary levels. Teams I've been on also do grade checks and at the very least talk with students when these things happen, possibly encouraging students to miss meetings to make up for work.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

The school in question is only 280 students, so the capability for individualized education is definitely there (and seems to exist based on the posts from 1540). But that doesn't mean you throw all regulations out the window, either. It was mentioned that all extracurriculars had caps, and robotics had somehow managed to avoid them previously.

It's most likely possible to grant individual exceptions to the rule in the right scenario, but to not have the rule to begin with because you're going to make individual judgments eliminates the impetus to budget your time beforehand.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

We are getting ready to begin our third year and the amount of hours students are putting into Robotics is very concerning to me. Most importantly, safety. Either driving late at night or being careless with equipment because of lack of sleep.

I am the parent of two kids playing high school basketball. Which takes place for the first half of our build season. Our robotics kids put in three to five times as many hours than my kids do their high school teams.

I think it is totally crazy to see this much time being spent building a robot. I do not think it was the intent of FIRST to have students devote this many hours building a robot. Not during a school year.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

What's the problem? "Oh Johnny is a straight A student, but he stays up late at night and works really hard for his grades. We should stop it. It's not fair to students who don't work hard and get poor grades." That's a bunch of hooey.

My next question is how is this going to be enforced? Will the school hire spies to watch what people are doing when they're out of school? Or will they put software that shuts down your computer when you fire up Netbeans after x amount of hours coding?

And what's wrong with being obsessed with a problem? What if Bill Gates had been told to stop spending so much time at his high school's computer lab coding? Or Edison to stop staying up all night working away? Or Dean Kamen to stop thinking about the Segway? So what kind of message does this send to students? "Homework is important, but you can only spend a small amount of time on it. What's more important is that you have fun, and enjoy life".

Yeah - like that's the kind of attitude we really need right now.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

The level of effort that some students expend is not for every student. I managed to do FRC, race varsity alpine for my HS (during the entire FRC season), and get good grades. It was an enormous amount of work, but I started to find out where my limits were both mentally and physically, which is probably one of the most valuable things I've ever learned and most definitely contributed to my success in college.

I find no fault with someone who devotes a large (even excessive) amount of time to pursuing what they are passionate about.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I feel that the students/parents need to control this issue. In 2010, I did FRC, was on the Varisty swim team, and was in band (a good 4 hours outside of school a week). My grades actualy IMPROVED during the season. Granted I am not on a school team, so I don't have the same issues that others do, but to me, if the student wants to put in 2, 3, 400 hours of work on a robot, and can get good grades, there is nothing wrong with that.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I wholeheartedly agree with this view. Robotics provided me with utterly invaluable skills for college--and, I strongly suspect, for the rest of my life. Responsibility, teamwork, leadership, organization, communication... and a host of basic technical skills. Near the top, though, is definitely time management. (2 years as captain-manager and mechanical lead, 500-600hrs/season, above a 4.0, with Air Force Auxiliary and marching band will do that.)

In college, I have 20 credits/semester with a 3.9 in honors engineering, plus Air Force ROTC, band, and 200hrs/build season with a 7hr round-trip commute. I've had friends with half the commitments really screw themselves over for want of those HS skills and experiences. (The irony? I wouldn't have graduated high school if not for robotics. It put me on track--gave me something to live for.)

Far be it from me to begrudge a student that opportunity. Is everyone ready for it? No. Can one always tell? Building up slowly and getting to know people helps, but no, it can't be perfect. I'll do everything in my power to help a dedicated student understand their limits as painlessly as possible, but sometimes you've got to hit them on your own. That trial-by-fire was the single most important step in my education--in my life--to date. No one could have carried me through that, and in retrospect, I wouldn't have wanted them to. Wonder if they knew that at the time. ;)

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

When the problem you are obsessed with (robotics) isn't your most pressing issue, then something is wrong. School and having a balanced healthy life is more important than an after-school robotics club.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I think that is often the hope and the intent. :) It is very very rewarding to see when it happens - which is not always.

Jane

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

First off, sorry for the delayed response. I had to remember what the heck I was talking about nearly 4 months ago...

No one ever mentioned homework so I am not sure where this is coming from.

Actually, obsession is not healthy. There is a lot of joking about how people are "overdosed on FIRST" but for the most part we need to lead normal lives. Diversifying our interests is good for the human mind and schools should encourage students to take part in many activities and discourage one activity from consuming an inordinate amount of a student's time. Actually, I do think that schools should make it clear to teachers and students that part of high school is also about what happens outside the classroom setting.

The attitude that you catch more bees with honey than with vinegar? Actually, yes it is. Statements about how it is not enforceable or how it is "stupid" don't mean anything when the people in charge think of your team as a bunch of "petulant little snots" and decide to teach you a lesson. I don't often get along with people but I know that when I want something I have to give something in return.

If I want an exception to a policy that I feel is overly restrictive I need to make a valid case. I need to start off with acknowledging that the intent of the policy is sound but the implementation conflicts with our goals (which the school presumably agrees with). Then you need to outline how you have a series of policies in place that adhere with the intent of the policy. Finally you need to prove that your policies were effective the following year. This will help you in the future should you find yourself in conflict again.

The other alternative which I see employed is to resort to attacking the person. Saying the administrators are "misguided, power hungry, control freaks who smell of hamster dung" is sure to NOT work.*


Furthermore, the school has decided to implement this policy. We can debate if it is needed (personally, I feel it is a noble goal but I disagree with it) until the pigs blow up but that won't make any difference. Instead perhaps this discussion should move towards how teams have helped teach students proper time management skills. Perhaps also we should look at what we, as mentors, can do to help students become more balanced.


*Do not ask for more details on how I know this...

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Whoa...This thread was dead for..like...months. Nice resurrection.

Anyway, my team just needs to put in some more effort, like at the level of near-fanaticism. Hopefully, we have a sufficiently insane team to pull that off. :)


Thaine

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I found my limits in H.S. I fell behind in schoolwork, pretty drastically in some cases, and I had several extracurriculars. Long story short, I had to cut back and add some discipline. This included showing up to class when the instructor knew, from seeing me at the L.A. Regional on practice day, that I had a robotics competition on a class day, and would have given an excused absence. (I was also late getting to the event the next day, due to a different class.)

I know from that experience that I can't juggle more than about 3-4 major projects at any given time. Back then, it was school, robotics, and Scouts that stayed; sports and the school yearbook fell by the wayside. In college, I quit playing with the soccer club after 2 seasons, not because I wasn't playing but because I needed more schoolwork time (and another team--Aero Design--was taking more and more time).

Now, someone else might think "3-4 projects/activities? That's nothing! I do twice that in the offseason!" I remind you who may think that that you are not me and I am not you. That's probably a good thing, otherwise we wouldn't be able to come up with different crazy designs to do the same thing...

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Make no mistake- being a member of a FIRST team requires an incredible amount of responsibility and maturity. Those are two factors that our team stresses at every possible opportunity. We haven't had a problem with it yet, but if we notice that a student is looking like they need a break, we will send them home.

I would highly encourage you to either talk directly with your team's mentors or get involved with the team yourself. If your team doesn't look out for students as much as it should, start changing that. No one should operate equipment without mentor supervision either, so the mentors should take notice if a student is trying to work a machine while overworked.

Luckily, all of the members on our team know their limits. Students don't show up when they have projects to finish or when they need a break. The students who are the most committed to the project and have the time to spare have also always been the ones who know how long they can work effectively and when they need to throw in the towel and get some sleep. As I said before, the best way to help your team is to get involved.

The "how will they stop us" defense never works, and is a poor stance to take. Most school districts do have plenty of ways of enforcing this. Detention and suspension are always possible, and the district can stop students from going on field trips (with the team or classes) amongst many other punishments.

This is exactly what high school is for, and exactly what I did as well.
Anyone who has been near a serious marching band or winter drumline knows how much dedication that takes. I managed to spend 4 years with robotics and drumline constantly clashing. For 6 weeks I was often at school from 7am to 10pm, simply walking from one activity to another. The most extreme case was the night before ship this year, when I didn't get home until 4am. I graduated with an 11.3 (yea, we use the 12-point scale) GPA. It was difficult, but a little bit of planning on my part made it possible.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

First, and quite tangentially, I see that SouthCarolinaRo has negative rep for this statement. I find that appalling - this parent obviously has valid concerns for his or her children, and would benefit from an open and positive-to-neutral discourse about the situation, not negative reputation points (I know, they're just dots, but they still carry a connotation).

Back to the point - I do not know how your children's robotics team is run, I can only go from the experience of my team and conversations I've had with teams around me. Athletic teams have mandatory meetings and practices, both in and out of the season. If a player misses a practice, he or she may not start/play in the next game.
However, robotics is different. If a student, or that student's parents, feel that too much time is being used in this one endeavor, that student absolutely has the right to "miss practice" once in a while. I expect Varsity CyberCards to be at >80% of team functions, and Junior Varsity members to be at >60%. Realistically, most kids are here for everything, but if they need to take some time for schoolwork/job/other activities, we all understand.
Talk to your team's head mentor or lead teacher, see if you can work out a compromise. If you say your children have to be home by 8pm, or can only be there 5 days a week, I'm sure the team leaders would be receptive to your concerns.
Regarding your last paragraph, it is important to realize the purpose of FIRST is not simply to build a robot. The intent of FIRST is to "inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership." (taken from usfirst.org) As long as the goal is being met, the time being spent on that goal is completely irrelevant.
In FIRST, as with everything else, people get out of it what they put into it.
Regarding the timing of build season, there isn't really a 4-month period anywhere else in the year where all the things the happen in a FIRST season can happen. If it was held during the summer, the program would die. I've been bitten by the FIRST bug just about as hard as anybody, but I wouldn't be willing to give up my summer family time for it.
As has been said before, sometimes boundaries need to be set, limitations should not be exceeded haphazardly, and sometimes those are deeply individual and personal things.