Limits on Team Hours
 

Hi All,

Team 1540 takes pride in being a student-managed team and producing a 100% student-designed and built robot. Recently, our school enacted a policy regarding the amount of time that students could have for homework and extracurricular activities. For this last build season, the policy did not impact the robotics program, and certain team members (myself included), racked up huge amounts of hours to finish the robot in 6 weeks. The administration caught wind of it, and was slightly concerned that students were putting 2, 3, 400 hours into robotics over a 6 week period of time. We were recently presented with a proposal that would not let a student into the robotics lab if he/she broke 200 hours over the 6 week build season. Additionally, the lab would be open from 3-6:30 on any school night, and only until 10 on weekends. My friends and I are concerned about how this may affect our build for next season. While there are many things we can do to distribute the hours, distributing tasks, training more new members etc. there are certain things that require some key members to put in large amounts of time.

I was wondering if other teams have statistics about the average and median amount of hours committed by team members over the build season. Anecdotes would work too. What I'm looking for are things that I, and my team, can take to our administration to see if we can amend the policy before it goes into effect for next year's build season. Also, if anyone has any past experience with situations similar to this, anything would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I hate when schools implement policies like this.

Regardless, in 2008 and 2009 I'd say I logged about 250hrs - 300hrs at school for build season. That doesn't include time I spent working on robotics related things at home or at work.

The only time limit we've ever had on our team was a shift limit. Most normal students are limited to (3) 2.5hr shifts per week during build.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

This is the first I've heard of this, and I have to say, frankly, it's stupid.

My team logs in roughly 200 hours, with a few core logging in more hours in extra meetings and stuff outside of meetings.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

No, it is not stupid. It is an attempt to solve a real problem that students face. Instead of calling the administration stupid work with them to set realistic bounds.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I disagree there needs to be bounds set at all.

If the students other activites are not suffering, why would we limit their potential?

That's the policy we take. They know that school comes first. The more responsible students don't need to be told that. The other ones get a very stern counciling session should their grades slip at all.

How do kids develop personal responsibility if we shield them from making any bad decisions? Many people learn more from mistakes than they do from being told.

I see this as a step toward nannyism that the school shouldn't be taking. Where are their parents? The mentors? It's not a school's responsibility to manage these kids outside of school.

In fact, if no one on your team had their grades slip substantially, then I would argue that this is an answer that is in search of a problem.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Problem? I saw nothing in the first post that said that student performance dropped. I see no reason to fix something that isn't broken. If you try to, well, stupid is an accurate word. If there was a problem with students sleeping in class, skipping class, getting worse grades (even if they are not bad) than the policy has some meat on its bones.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

does your school do grade checks? our school does and any robotics sudent earing less than a C in any class gets banned from excued ansences for trips, and less than a D gets you barred from meetings until the grades are up.

that way, if you are spending too much time on robotics not doing HW, you get a lame grade and get barred. trust me, it is a good incentive.

maybe you could try our system?

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

For the team it may not be a problem but this policy is across the board and it IS a problem for many high schoolers. Now, perhaps the team may get an exception made but calling the policy stupid is a good way of pissing off the people you need to help you.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I put about 240 hours at school, and about another 50 outside of school. I would say see if you can set the bar at 250, you can't really put in much more then that. Or if the do keep it lower be a little creative (or subtractive) when i comes to logging in your hours where ever they are recorded. It is easier to agree with an idiot and do what you want behind his back, then it is to explain to him why he is an idiot.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Alrighty, the policy is not stupid, the implementation is stupid.

I mean, like almost everyone in the thread, if the students can maintain their performance in classes, why penalize them at all?

In robotics, we have a rule that if your grade drops below a 75, which is a D, then you can't attend after school meetings. It's logical. But putting a cap on the involvement of some of the students on the team who are doing everything right is wrong.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

My mother is a high school chemistry teacher, and mentors a team. If a teacher tells her that a student is being delinquent, they have to rectify the situation before they can work on the robot. I've even seen her force a student to finish late homework during a build session and turn it in to her before they can go work on the robot. I think it is effective largely because my mom can embarrass anyone. ((<3 Mom))

I think this type of restriction is much more effective than a time limit. I think working on the robot can be a very tasty carrot, and being kicked out after a number of hours can be an arbitrary stick.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I easily spent 200+ hours in the shop during build when I was a student; I'd have to see if any of my time logs are still around my house for an exactish number. Others spent more time.

Now, where the administration is coming from: They have a policy that limits time on extracurriculars. You guys are exceptions for now. Policies don't like exceptions as a general rule. So, they're working on limiting the exception. They're probably also a little concerned about health, grades, etc.

There is also a valid reason to limit time in the shop: You need time for family, homework, sleep, etc., regardless of whether you think you do or not. My college recently implemented a policy on their engineering teams: Nobody in the lab between 2AM and 7:30AM, or something like that. This was to keep us all sane. Could it be bent? Yes, near competition. But only if you were doing well in school, health, etc., and weren't doing it regularly. Teams are actually more relaxed now, and doing better work.

What I would suggest is offer a counter-proposal: Lab open 3-7 on school nights (6:30 is good, but see if you can get an extra half-hour to clean up), open to 10 on weekends, don't restrict student time yet (emphasis on yet, because we'd like to get a fairer estimate of time). Track every student's time in the lab for this year. Time off-site designing and programming and such like doesn't count, but it would be a good idea to monitor that also. At the end of the next build cycle, total up the hours and come up with an average and a grand total. Round up to the nearest 25 for ease of tracking, and set that as the base limit. Do not count time working on homework in the lab--homework is important and not robotics stuff. (And if a student is being unproductive, i.e. messing around, count that time not at all.)

Request variances at the start of the school year based on how many students are reported on the team; that is, we know it takes about this many man-hours to complete a robot, we have this many students available, therefore, this is how many hours a given student can be expected to put in. Repeat the time-gathering every year to get better data; for example, a one year you might build a kitbot and the next year you might build unobtainabot that takes 10x as many hours to build, and a straight time-log won't show that.

Also, propose exceptions/extensions that can be applied for: if a lot of help is needed to finish on time, the team should be able to request extra open time, not to go beyond midnight on any given night, for up to two weeks in February. Students should be able to request up to two individual 50-hour extensions towards any time limit provided that they are in good standing. This is to help the robot do well at competition, and thereby show the school favorably. ;) (Robot not do so well at competition, school/sponsors might not look quite so great.)

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Not that I agree with the implementation of a hard limit, but it worries me that all the posters in this thread think the only two things to be juggled are robotics and school. Every teenager should strive to have a well balanced lifestyle that has time for socializing, exercise, school and a variety of extracurricular activities. There are far too many students in FIRST who only focus school and robotics, and for lack of a better characterization are socially deficient.

I'm not saying a hard cap on robotics hours is the answer (at least half of the 1114 students would blow past the 200 hours by week 4), but I think we need to remember that there's much more to a healthy lifestyle than just FIRST and school.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

This probably isn't what you want to hear, but:

I think it all depends on what you want to do. In 2008 we built a robot that could probably compete with the Space Shuttle for most complicated system ever built. [video] I spent about 170ish hours at the school... and I was only around for 3 weeks of build! The core students and mentors (12ish) also averaged 40+ hours. Our two lead mentors were somewhere north of that. In short, we built a totally sweet robot, but we totally burned out our team.

In 2009, we only met 3 times a week for 4 hours for the first 3 weeks, 4 times a week for weeks 4-5, and daily during week 6. We put in significantly fewer hours, yet we were *more* competitive than we were in 2008!

Limits are not bad things, after all "Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion." :)

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Agreed, our #1 student in terms of hours (and I mean just some KILLER hours), is also our student with the highest GPA. He got a B once, in AP Euro, but for a technical kid that aint bad.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

My team personally didn't put much time into the robot, because some of the elements weren't done until the regional, which would explain our bad performance. I'd estimate about 100 hours.

Personally, I think the restriction is a bit pointless, ratdude's idea makes sense. You could try telling admin that you have grade restrictions in place if you try his idea, and see if they give you some leeway.


Thaine

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

And as one of those students who has focused just on school and robotics (this was the first season that I focused on other things, such as a job and friends, too. Still a bit over-constrained, but that's a different problem entirely), I mostly agree with this. I don't believe that I've become socially deficient, but it does take a huge toll both physically and psychologically. There are plenty of people who can attest that I've had many late nights, crammed many projects and papers in at the last minute, have broken down in tears because of stress, and have had extreme bouts of pessimism over the past three years, particularly in the winter months. My grades suffered. And it really sucks. It's also a hard trap to get out of, which is why I haven't escaped yet. You would think that being sick for three consecutive months would convince me to never do it again, but it doesn't work like that.

A hard cap could do some people (like myself) a lot of good, and prevent what's happened to me from happening to others, but it's not for everyone. We have a minimum requirement for hours, but the only reward for racking up that many hours is getting to travel with the team (we assumed that parents wouldn't want to drive their kids 6 hours up to Traverse City if they could just as easily have gotten a ride with the team). Minimums are good, maximums...not always. There will never be a policy that will work good for everyone. I think that we can all see where the administration is coming from, and it may be a drastic difference from what you're used to, but you'll have to adjust to them. If you can prove to the school that your team is mature enough to handle the change respectfully and understandably, maybe in a few years you'll be able to convince them to allow your team a little more flexibility in hours.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Agreed. Though many of us categorize our time by "at Robotics" and "anywhere else", we need to keep in mind that there are a myriad of other situations calling our attention. I've learned that the hard way this past build season.

I managed to actually spend more hours with robotics this year despite having a job and an increased workload at school. It was effective; I was able to help both divisions of our team with countless projects, while still logging a ton of shop hours and fulfilling my specific responsibilities as a manager on our team (every so often). Furthermore, I maintained an A+ average in all my classes (which were all honors courses).

To do this, something had to give. Unfortunately, I sacrificed time with my family during those six weeks. I was off to school at 8am, off to work at 4PM, then back to school until 11, 12, sometimes 1am. There was even a stint this year where I spent 35-38 hours straight (can't quite remember, it's a bit of a blur) at the school with a few mentors and teammates. Inevitably however, my relationship with my family began to turn sour. I would come home after being gone for 12 hours, completely exhausted and often times frustrated, and my family was forced to deal with my foul state of mind. Even my own mother came to me and asked whether I was using drugs or drinking, because she simply could not explain how I had changed so much. Of course I was doing neither, but nonetheless, it speaks to the drastic transformation I had gone through because of the stress.

My priorities weren't straight: robotics came before anything. Frankly, though I don't endorse the idea, I will admit that with a cap on my hours I would have probably helped my state of mind and being.

Be mindful of all the factors that a teen should worry about. School, family and friends require just as much attention as getting your competition robot assembled, the difference being that your teammates cannot fix/repair your relationships.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Time caps are limiting. In the real world, you work however long it takes until your project gets done by the deadline.
But, one thing no one mentioned that surprises me: Work smarter, not harder.
If you can't shake this ban, then (I'm about to sound cruel) live with it [/cruel]. Do what you can when you can. If you can't build for the first hour, write chairman's, get homework done, CAD... Do whatever you can do without loud-noised tools. At the school we work at, we can't work (with power tools) until a mentor shows up. That can be up to an hour and a half after the students get there. What do we do in the meantime? Homework, I set up the welding booth, we get stuff out of storage, we get team input on important things, we eat...

Also, I have to echo that it can't be a bad thing. If I'm missing a single assignment during build, my parents don't let me attend meetings. I let everything else go during robotics: I eat/sleep poorly. My friends can't wait till after my first regional. I couldn't have a job because there was no way I could work around it. My parents (and friends and teachers) would LOVE to see this put into effect.

I'm not saying I'd be thrilled to have this put in effect with my team, but I'm saying that it might just be a hurdle. You're gunna have to jump.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I've been thinking about starting a thread proposing a FIRST 'enforced' cap on work hours during buildseason. I'm a big believer (although not always a follower) on the idea of balance in life. As several has stated, having an unbalanced life (or 6 weeks) for FIRST and school is not healthy. I've heard stories/rumors of teams working past midnight on school nights and working over 40 hours a week (on top of school/job). I do not see how students can come close to the recommened 8 hours of sleep a night and complete their homework and fulfill their social needs. It is just not healthy.

What is the causes teams to work soo long and hard? I think it has to do building a competitive robot and competing with the elite teams. I suspect that the time committment has increased throughout the years. In order to compete with the elite teams that spend a ton of time working, you also have to spend a ton of time working. Those elite teams, who want to keep their edge, work harder and longer. Eventually, everyone is working an unhealthy amount.

Why not cap the amount of time to, say, 30 hours a week and no later than 10PM on school nights? Will students be less inspired? Will fewer mentors get burned out and thus stay with the program longer? FIRST already gives us restrictions to the size and weight of the robot, why not restrict how long we can work on the robot? I believe the NCAA has limits the amount of time football teams can practice, so the practice is not unheard of. Additionally, atleast in Wisconsin, minors cannot work more than some limit of hours per week or past some hour on school nights, during the school year.


I'm not sure if I would support a rule that limits the amount of time a team can work on a robot, but I think it certainly has its advantages; mainly it is more healthy for the students, probably will not result in less-inspiration, and will increase the likelyhood of mentors sticking with FIRST.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I am not sure 14-18 year old students should be allowed to make that decision. It is the same reason we 'shield' them from cigarettes and alcohol. I'm not sure they are experienced enough to make those decisions.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Team 341 only has 27 build hours per week over 5 days per week. This works for us and hopefully can work for you. Its important that everyone stays healthy and happy. We manage to stay competitive by following a few simple ideas. Just an FYI, we build in a high school wood shop with simple tools and create a robot (and twin) that is 95% student built every year, so this can be done by anyone.

Here are a few suggestions:
* More team members, better trained for less hours per person
People often ask why our team is so large, the answer is build season

* Organize your team and divide the labor tasks in the fall
Students can practice their given task in a low pressure environment in Sept - Dec.

* Plan and design very, very carefully before you build
You can erase pencil, but its really hard to erase aluminum

* Parallel building is hard but productive
If you can find a partner school or a local company try it.
We work with our regional tech school, North Montco Technical Career Center

* Have at least one, if not two mandatory days off.
You will be more, not less productive

* We do not work past 11 PM
For safety and sanity reasons, I feel that it is dangerous to work too late into the night.
It makes for great stories, but actually puts everyone at risk for a serious accident

When we first instituted these work restrictions many years ago, many coaches and students resisted the notion.
But I promise you that the restrictions will make you work harder and smarter and give everyone some much needed rest.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Though it is popular opinion, this school policy of barring people from working on the robot is ridiculous. You should suggest the common "gradecheck" for a student. If the student keeps up with their work they should be able to work on the robot. Just my 2 cents.

We kids should be allowed to manage our own time to an extent.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

i will add, in addition to the grade restrictions i said earlier, we also have fridays off (unless we are in a crunch) and sundays are optional. 6pm-9pm weeknights other than friday, 10am-4pm saturady, 1pm-4/5pm sunday (opt.).

for me though, robotics is my social life during build season. i could lathe parts, solder circuits, weld frames, etc. forever... maybe i'm too weird :goofy:

now, our team is not as big as say, 217, 341, etc. we just don't have the interest (most consider us dweebs at the former corn field known as Harrison High school). this year had some hope, as we got a couple of people not in the usual robotics crowd involved.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I would tend to disagree again.

I raise my 4, 7, and 9 year old children the same way. If their room isn't clean, they don't get to go to their friends. If they haven't done their homework, they don't get to watch TV. They've learned they have responsibilities and the penalty for not taking care of those responsibilities is to not get to go do 'the fun stuff'.

Flunking a test, or even letting a grade slip a bit in highschool isn't the end of the world. It is, however, a great way to drive the point home. It's also a great way to bring a little perspective into their world: I've seen kids break down into tears when they got a C... that just isn't right.

The key is to teach them decision making skills that will allow them to make the right choices. Shielding them from making the small unimportant mistakes like flunking a test or falling asleep and doing poorly on an assignment really doesn't teach them anything.

Let them be kids and make mistakes. Just try to stop them from trying cigarettes and alcohol before the end of highschool. Let me know how that goes :yikes:

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Time off from the shop is not a bad thing. AT ALL.

Every year, some of our most unsolvable technical problems get solved while I am at the store, talking on the phone or online one-on-one with other mentors or students, or in the shower (which, I'm convinced, is where Einstein must have figured out general relativity).

Al posted our schedule, and though we certainly add to it as the deadline nears, having scheduled days off forces you to gather your thoughts. You can walk into your shop the next day with a plan and you can use those hours 3x more effectively than you would have otherwise.

Sometimes stepping away from the machine (whether to do some CAD designing or just to spend time with your wife) is the right answer.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I think it is important to know what the priorities are in order to set some restrictions. For us this is the order of importance for our students.
1. Family commitments and what ever parents have decided.
2. School, no leeway here. If your grades are falling, you don't work, you don't travel, you don't drive the robot.
3. Other things that make life worth living.
4. Robotics.

With that said, during the build, students are required to attend Monday night meetings, 5:30-8:30 PM for attendance, team info, contact with the lead teachers and whatever the subteams have planned. Sub teams have at least one other night during the week and students are sent packing at 8:30PM. Friday is date night for adults and students so no meetings. Saturday is generally all day but we expect students to bring homework so they have something to do when not working. Sundays are generally for church and family with some optional time at the playing field. The Saturday before ship is usually a long day but students must leave before curfew if they drive and whatever time the parents have set. Midnight is a hard out for anyone that isn't required to leave earlier. Sunday before ship is a pre-ship party/scrimmage with as many other teams can make it during the day. Typically students are asked to sign up for shifts to help setup and start matches, continue with matches and helping other teams, and cleanup. Five or six is the hard out on that day because the rest of us are dead at that point.
The greatest number of errors, safety related injuries, breakage of parts all occur when people are overworked. Going home helps the robot, the team and your grades.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

If the issue is about grades, then there should be a policy limiting work if your grades are bad (to not punish people who have no grade issue). If the issue is the members having a well balanced life, they should be allowed to determine how they spend their time when it comes to extra cirricular vs social. That is NOT something that school administrators should try control.

I'm biased, I put a ton of work into the team and wouldn't survive on a limit. But I don't really see where a cap is a good idea when put up against some other options.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

There's a lot of promise in this statement. Identifying where your team can work to improve and become more efficient. It is also reflective of a mature approach to helping resolve some of the concerns regarding the new limits on time. There are teams all over the world who deal with time limits and constraints that they haven't imposed on themselves. Receiving the KoP later than other teams - weather that impacts on the build - problems that arise with which the team must contend with. Having a system developed and in place to deal with situations and emergencies that arise - is good practice. Having to develop the system for the situation or emergency that is impacting the team during the build, is difficult but has a huge learning curve that comes with it. Your team can spend time now addressing how you will manage the time next season. You view the new plan as one of limitations and restrictions but what if you look at it as opportunity to develop in areas of time management and organization? You could write down your timeline, showing how build has progressed during the 6 week build period in the past. Then develop a new timeline projecting how it will work in the upcoming season. Make notes and then schedule an appointment with your administrator to talk about and discuss the impact on the build for the team. This would help develop communications between the team and the administration and it would also reflect the maturity of the team leadership in dealing with change. The cup is half full.

Jane

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Agreed! Most if not all MAYHEM students do not show up to every single meeting and miss 1-2 per week out of 6 at the least. Many of us have work (I have two jobs), prior commitments with our Churches such as youth group and other activities, school, and just about every student will go skiing at least once per week. I don't know how some kids can get up in the morning, go to school, then to robotics right after school, home, homework, bed, repeat for 6+ weeks. Part of me thinks this schedule is what causes burnouts in week 5 when all kids have been doing is school and robotics non-stop. Especially teams who meet 7 days a week (we take Sundays off).

I would agree that you should try to get more hours/available time from this decision, but remember that they should have a balance outside of FRC like they do for the other 46 weeks of the year, like spending time with your family. Good luck!

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I had always heard that he was sitting on a bus, but agree that the shower seems very conducive to idea generation.

As per the topic at hand. The issue your team is now dealing with is just another thing that is very "real world" about this program. In my wife's previous job, she was limited to 40 hours per week due to budgetary issues, with zero exceptions. She was not permitted to work without being clocked in or to work from home. She is in the hotel event planning business, which is most definitely NOT a 9-5 job. Those in her department not on an hour count average more than 50 hours a week. She had to learn to manage her time more wisely and (as has been mentioned earlier in this thread) "work smarter".

We run our team more like a team than a club. We expect the same level of dedication as the football, swim, or basketball team expects from its members. With that said, the mentors all fully support having "well-rounded" students. We had athletes, musicians, Eagle Scouts, members of regional church youth planning groups, etc, on this year's team. I've always said that high school is the time to do a lot of activities and college is the time to focus on one and become very dedicated to it.

Work with your school to set reasonable boundaries. If they are dead-set on 200 hours, you'll just need to learn to deal with that. 3.5 hours / day (3 - 6:30 for you) x 5 days / week x 6 weeks = 105 hours. This gives you 95 hours to play with on weekends. Assuming 6 weekends, this is more than 15 hours / weekend. This isn't an impossible request. Had they said you had 50 hours, then yes, protest your heart out. But 200 hours doesn't seem to be that bad.

Each team is different and forced to learn what is going to work best for them. That which does not kill you will only make you stronger. Learn from this opportunity. Good luck.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Most of our members don't log anywhere near 200+ hours in the build season, but our captains and core members are typically around 200 or so hours. I know I logged over 200 hours this season, all while taking university courses and commuting between home, the university, and robotics. I didn't miss a single build time (although I had to leave early a couple times) and my grades stayed the same.

It's definitely manageable to log a lot of hours, but I understand why the school might want to set a limit. 500 hours in 6 weeks averages almost 12 hours per day. When you factor in (approximately) 6-7 hours for school 5 days per week, that leaves only 5-6 hours for homework, sleeping, and everything else. It's awesome that there are people who are this committed to robotics, but at that point, I would start worrying about their health.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I put in a lot of time in high school. I used to stay until 2am some weeknights. There were some overnights when preparing for pre-ship events. I was also taking a full load of AP classes, working and playing varsity basketball. So I had a lot to do but somehow (lots of Mountain Dew) I got it all done successfully.
Honestly, I think I wouldn't have learned as much if someone had capped my hours. I certainly wouldn't know about time or project management.

The team I graduated from no longer has as insane hours. Now meetings end before 11pm. The team has grown so the work is more spread out. Overall, they meet for fewer hours but are still a successful team, in fact they could be considered even more successful now.
This was done by doing work outside of meetings and making the team more efficient. There are lots of emails and other communication messages so that everyone knows what needs to get done before the meeting starts. CAD has also become very important and helps save design time.

With every team I work with, Fridays and Sundays are off unless something horrible has happened then we might meet for a few hours on Friday.

I think it would be difficult to meet with those times because of them availability of mentors. It might also be hard if the students need to work on things after school. My teams meet from about 5-9 but students can come early to work on homework, eat, CAD, etc.

I'm surprised to say that based on the average number of hours we would be able to function with those limits. However, I know that without the people who went over the average then the team wouldn't be as successful.
21 students worked an average of 15 hours during the pre-season. 9 mentors worked an average of 28 hours. There were 12 pre-season meetings. This time includes work done outside of meetings for students but not for mentors. The reason the mentors have a higher average is because some of the students only came to a meeting or two.
17 students worked an average of 85 hours during the build season. 15 mentors worked an average of 72 hours during the build season. The students worked an average of 40 hours after the robot shipped. The mentors worked an average of 29 hours after the robot shipped. This time includes work done outside of meetings for students but not for mentors.
I think I need to re-run these numbers because they seem low.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

As someone who is starting to get into this whole "real world" thing, I can tell you that's simply not true. There are countless situations in the real world where time caps are in place for many reasons. Labor laws, union regulations, funding issues, work site availability, and contract stipulations are all very frequent reasons for why time limits exist in the real world. Collin gave an example of one situation just a couple posts ago.

Time caps are part of the real world, and the team may very well have to find a way to work with them. 200 hours isn't a terribly small amount of time. Based on some scratch paper calculations and my fuzzy memory, I doubt I spent much more than 200 hours in any particular build season I've been involved in. And I know that the average student on my teams definitely doesn't spend more than 200 hours.
If you feel you need more time, work to try and raise the cap. But it will likely be much easier to make exceptions for individual students rather than the team as a whole. Especially if the key students who need to spend more time also have great grades.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Exactly. Another example is with government contracts - legally, you are obligated to log every hour spent working the contract so you can bill the government (to prevent anti-competitive situations where a company low-balls a bid in order to win it and then has employees work unrecorded hours to execute).

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

As someone who is in a significantly different "real world" I can say your mileage may vary. Some industries have labor laws or funding limits that limit your amount of time. My company has neither of these. I know people who have left the building at 4 am and been back at 8 am the next day. It isn't normal but the job must get done. But that is not normal. It is usually because of an emergency (server explodes) or because they broke something. Or it could just be because they have nothing better to do.

In FIRST though you don't get fined when your robot doesn't work at 100% by week 3 of the build season. There is absolutely no reason to kill yourselves. Remember, this is supposed to be fun.

As for the specific number. 200 hrs in 6 weeks works out to 33 hrs a week. I don't know about your school but I know that is a crazy amount of time if you add it onto the 35-40 hrs/ week of school. How do your mentors even spend that much time there? I know that the thought of spending 30+ hrs a week in addition to the 40+ (sometimes as high as 60) I work in a week would kill me.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

If I was in your situation I would bring up statistics of people from your school on the robotics team and not on the robotics team and prove to the administration that robotics hours don't hurt grades. I personally always did better in school during the second term because robotics forced me to become more organized.

We have problems with our teacher not wanting to be in the lab enough and have 2 meetings a week for the first 3 weeks. One thing we try to do to make up for this lack of time is meet up at someone's house on days when we don't have meetings and discuss our plans for the next couple of days and do everything we can do outside of the lab.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Ok I re-ran the numbers so it is no longer based on averages. My smaller team would be able to meet the 200 hour restriction but it would require more students to step up to help balance the work load. It would also require more of the design, awards, etc to be done outside of team meetings. So 200 hours is definitely possible not only for the build season but for the whole season if your team is organized and on the smaller side.

My larger team would not be able to do this. My larger team has a website group, animation group, course group, and video group unlike my smaller team. The other subgroups are also bigger on this team so the team is able to accomplish more (as far as complex designs, team outreach, etc).

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

the most (recorded) hours put into the robot by any of our members was 104. i say recorded, because i know i put in a lot that i just didn't clock in for. but to get to the point, i think that you could easily fit within the new restraints. we did fairly well, and are always improving. we just work every year on working more efficiantly.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

As the Head Coach & Mentor of the team (1540) facing these restrictions, a little background might be in order.

Our team is based at a small top-tier private school, Catlin Gabel in Portland, OR, with 280 students in the entire high school. We had 25 students on our team this season. Therefore, when robotics is in full swing the impact on students and thus the minds of the faculty is big. Students are required to log at least 50 hours in the fall and 50 during build season to be on the team. The average for build season was 120hrs, median 108hrs. One student logged 350+ hrs, another around 300. All the rest were below 200.

Our robot is entirely student designed and built. I say this as a way of underlining the fact that the students know that if they don't get something done, the mentors aren't going to fill in the gaps. That can lead to some excessive hours for those deeply invested.

Our school doesn't have grades in the normal sense. There are written comments on each student's performance at various intervals throughout the year. They then synthesize a letter grade for colleges at the end of the year.

This school is incredibly intense, with 100% going on to college, often to Ivy league schools. The normal homework load on a given night is 4-6 hours. Every class is basically AP, though we don't call it that. The students sometimes negotiate extensions for big assignments that happen during build season.

Our team has just finished up our sixth year. This year there were complaints from the faculty that robotics was having too big an impact on the academic performance of several of our students. That triggered a review of the program and hence the caps being discussed.

The caps would be:
200 hours max per student IN THE LAB. What they do outside of the lab is their business.

3:00-6:30pm on school nights in the lab. Open until 10:00pm on non-school nights.

Saturdays 10:00am-10:00pm

Holidays 10:00am-6:30pm

Sundays 10:00am-6:30pm near ship, otherwise closed.


While I wasn't a fan of artifical caps when they were first brought up, I've come to see them as just another constraint that must be balanced, just like performance, weight, time, expense, etc. What I do like about it is it forces the team to develop a broader set of base skills so that more of the team gets involved in the time consuming parts of the robot's design and construction.

Thanks for all your thoughtful comments so far! Keep them coming.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

To me, it sounds like the other extracurricular activities got wind that the robotics team wasn't being regulated and complained to the administration. At least, that sounds like the way it would go down in my school if there was a hour restriction on extracurriculars. But that's a pessimistic view.

Being optimistic, its nice that the school is concerned that students are spending a lot of time. If "your team "forced" students to be there for unreasonable amounts of hours in order to be considered on the team" (which I'm definitely not saying your team does! I totally wouldn't believe that!) then having restrictions would be good. But the student can leave at any time -- they don't need some sort of policy to "back them up". Besides, so Jim Bob logs the total allotted XX hours already on monday or tuesday...now he has the whole rest of the week to go sit on his butt at home? So like almost everyone else has said, just thank the administration for their concern and try to reason with them using facts such as "students get their homework done before they come to robotics" or "every member on the team has at least a B-" or whatever can apply to your team -- and if the student is starting to do poorly, then its up to them to make the right decision to leave and go study, afterall, this is high school, right? As someone else said, schools need to stop holding student's hands with regards to everything.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

When I was a student in the past I would put in 250-300 hours per build season, or 40-50+ hours a week. Many of us at that work output level sacrificed health and/or grades to do it.

This last season, as a coach, out team had more restricted hours including no work on Sundays, and the most dedicated students on our relatively small team put in a little under 200 hours. I think that a 200 hour limit is not unreasonable (admit it, your health and/or grades suffer at a 300hour/season work output).

A time cap will help you keep your sanity and work more effectively. How many of those 300 hours were high-productivity hours? A cut-back in hours might actually improve your teams overall productivity by allowing for things like relaxation, real meals, and sleep.

Good luck. :cool:

Edit: having read your mentor's post it seems as if the time cap won't severely impact your team's overall performance. I think you'll do just fine.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Then the caps are a good idea.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

i am not sure where some of you are getting time spent.

Here is what I would consider a super MAXIMUM number of hours for six weeks...
I will state that this is TOO MUCH TIME to spend on any activity....

Five days a week 5 PM to 10 PM - 125 hours
Saturday 9 -9 12 hours - 72 hours
Sunday 9-9 12 hours - 72 hours

Max time 269 hours

This is pretty close to the 250 hour threshold.

i think this is really too much anyway....

Our schedule is 3 hours per night Monday through Thursday
and Saturday 9 to 4
This adds up to 114 hours per student...

We don't meet after school we meet each night from 6 until 9...
We sometimes add a Sunday or a Friday at the end of the season and occasionally we go until 10 the last 2 weeks.... this might add in another 40 hours or so .... but that is still something around 150 hours.


Those of you that are spending 300 hours plus...???? How do you do that?
The max schedule I have shown above is too much time.... it leaves no time for academics. or any other family life. If you figure that in six weeks the total time available is 1008 hours.... figure on sleeping at least 6 hours a night...252 hours 7 hours a day in school 210 hours.... 1. 5 hours a day to eat...110 hours...
1 hour per day for prep/shower/body functions..... 42 hours... this adds up to 614 hours... which leaves 394 hours...
If you spend 300 hours on robotics that leaves you exactly 94 hours for other things... or free/study/play time of 2.23 hours per day ...

of course you can cut out hours of sleep... but that will end up causing bigger problems...


I decided for our team that we would not come in on Sundays.... not for religious reasons but just to give everyone a day with the family and to get ready for classes for the next week...

We also have a "study table/ study hall" that goes from 3:30 PM to 5:00 PM every day we have a meeting during the week. This makes those normally unproductive hours immediately after school into a time that students can work academically. We do this as a team and studying together helps build a sense of team unity. At 5:00 many students eat together too... and then come back for the 6 oclock meeting. Every Wednesday parents provide a meal before the meeting and every Saturday a meal is brought in for lunch...

We meet in the evenings so we can get mentors to the meetings...

So I would be concerned as to what would count as hours at robotics?

For us we have a balance of somewhere around 150 hours of lab/shop/computer etc time directly devoted to team business... and we have another 40 hours or so of supervised study time...

Even after all of this that is less than 200 hours...

I don't think that schools need to institutionalize this however.... every team should figure out what is right for them... academics come first... I can't speak for family issues... but of course those must precede anything....

Our policy is if you can't maintain your grades you need to cut back until you do....

I am not sure what everyone is so worried about...

If you put in more than 250 hours of REAL time in robotics something is wrong...

I used to coach regular sports and a typical schedule would be about 3 hours a day in practice.
maybe 6 hours on Saturday....

this would give about 21 hours a week or 126 hours per six weeks....and that seemed like a lot!!


I am not sure how individual students can achieve more than 300 hours in the six weeks of build.
(I know it is a little more than 6 weeks ... 6 weeks and 2.5 days or so.... actually...)

that is averaging 50 hours a week... or over 7 hours per day working on the robot.

this seems to be extreme to me...

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I must heartily disagree. Why haven't the concerned faculty of the students whose grades have slipped contacted the parents?

Why aren't the parental responsibilities even mentioned here?

Why are we relying on the school faculty to make rules like this, rather than relying on good decision making and bringing the parents into the equation?

This is a 'hot button' issue for me, where instead of going the route of addressing the problem, a broad over-reaching general rule is put in place that could very likely affect people whom don't have an actual problem. I would MUCH rather set up a system where the faculty sends a letter home and to the mentor of the team letting them know of the issue so it can be handled individually.

For reference, we meet Monday for 4 hours, Wednesday for 4 hours, Thursday for 4 hours, and Saturday for 8. That's 20 hours a week for 5 or 6 weeks. Students are constantly reminded that if they have homework, that comes first, and we have a room next door where they can go DO their homework then come back to robotics when they've finished.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

My business is the exception to every rule. Although not a normal occurrence, TV has some pretty screwy hours. I normally work 6AM-2PM but that can change anytime including to an overnight shift the same day. When working big shows, I have started the day at 5 AM and been late for work the next day because I was still at the previous job. A typical Soundstage shoot day will begin at 7 or 8 with unloading of the band trucks, setting equipment on stage and audio setup. Rehearsal begins at 1PM, dinner 5 or 6 PM, tape at 8 PM. If the band is prepared and there is no need to restart, or record multiple takes, we will finish between 9 and 10PM and start packing the band to get them on the road. We will leave the place about 1 AM on a good night and I will be back at 6AM. If the band takes a long time, it might be midnight before we start packing the band. We are a union house and the contract provides for these hours with penalties, of course. Commercial shoots are sometimes pretty weird as well. If the product is brand new, has a hard release date and the marketing people want things just right, I have seen 50 carpenters building a set over the Labor Day weekend followed by four 16 hour days in a row to finish the shooting.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I like Tom's line of thinking, with regards to personal and parental responsibility, but I am ok with oversight as well.

I tend to side though with the school on this one. For instance the A/Bs you could have had are now D's (which can be improved to a B/Cs, but you will not get the A/Bs. Once the grades have slipped, and the student is kicked off the team (academic probation), it seems like a double whammy where a soft limit could have been in place. (Better learn to write a funny song to get into MIT.)

Maybe a good compromise would be to establish hours in a reasonable manner with a discussion. Instead of a hard limit, have several soft limits. If you exceed X hours a week, a call will go to your parents to verify that they are engaged in what is going on. If you excede Y hours in a month, an email will be sent to your teachers asking about your performance.

I like math so let's look at it from some numbers:

7x24=168 hrs/week. Assume students are in school 8am-3pm= 7hrsx5=35hrs. Assume 1hr for prep (shower and travel)=5-15 (10 avg.), Assume 7 hrs of sleep average=49
168-35-10-49 = 74 hours of available time. Throw in 1 hour of homework each night and you are down to 69 total hours per week for life outside of school and sleeping. So far we have not included the 3 T's of being a Teenager (TV, Tech (games or texting), and Talking on the phone).

We will call this 69 hours "life" as it is the timeframe where most students would say having a "life" happens.

For a 6 week period:
60 = 10/week which is typically a part time job like bagging groceries or a paper route. You are not around enough to understand how to run the store, but enough to do a meaningful job well. 10/69=14% of "life"
90 = 15/week Still part-time. Not a critical roll, but similar to game and practice schedule for many sports. This is roughly our "minimum" involvement on 33. 15/69=22% of "life"
120 = 20/week As Tom showed, this is a pretty involved student that could/should be able to be quite involved. This could be 4x3hour meetings plus 8 hours on Saturday. This seems like a pretty good goal for someone engaged. 20/69=29% of "life"
150 = 25/week This could be 4x4hour meetings plus 9 hours on Saturday. This is more inline with our "mentor" schedule. We will likely end up putting in more time, but this is typically what we have scheduled. 25/69=36% of "life"
180 = 30/week 30/69=43% of "life"
210 = 35/week many 40/week employees with paid breaks/lunch end up doing about this number of hours as a "Full-time employee". 35/69=51% of "life" (yes over 1/2 of your "life" is FRC for this timeframe)
240 = 40/week "Full-time" employee 40/69=58% of "life"
300 = 50/week average. Likely comes from a 40/week schedule and lots of for a few of the weeks. 50/69=72% of "life"
360 = 60/week 60/69=87% of "life" Your family and friends forget who you are.

210 seems like a reasonable "soft limit" for people to get concerned and start calling teachers/parents. Probably shouldn't be a hard limit, but definitely something to take note of.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Honestly, if your team members can't keep up their grades during season, they just shouldn't be on the team. Limiting the number of hours the team spends building the robot is not the solution to the problem. I know that my team generally spends about 400 hours working on the robot during the first six weeks and another 400 leading up to Championships. As one of those "integral team members" who have to stay longer, I know that it can get difficult. But it is humanly possible to get good grades, even straight A's in AP and college courses, while still putting in upwards of 800 hours of work over the semester. With regular grade checks over the build season and strict adherence to UIL rules (you fail a class, you're not on the team), your team should be able to excel in school and still build an amazing robot without limited work hours.

As a final note, you may want to let your administrators know that getting B's and C's while participating in FIRST robotics allows you to learn more and better prepares you for the future than getting straight A's and not participating in any sort of robotics (or other extracurricular activities).

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Doesn't do much for college scholarships though. Several schools can give full rides to those with good ACT/SAT scores and 4.0 grade point. Doesn't happen if grades slip down. If cutting back a few hours makes a difference, saving several thousands of dollars should be a concern also. Just my .02.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

You're right, you can certainly put in all of the hours and still be a successful student and team member. But at what cost?

The limit would help people who don't have (or have lost) a sense of balance in their life. They're the people who spend 80% of their time working on robotics, 20% on school, and everything else seems to fall by the wayside. The difficult part is that it's often times hard to tell that you're spending too much time as it happens.

Do I support a hard limit? No, not a sweeping one. However, I do believe that it should be at the discretion of leadership, certainly including team mentors, to impose a limit on students. There isn't one solution for every team, but if each team takes regulation into their own hands then the situation could certainly be alleviated.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Yup, I missed a significantly higher scholarship bracket because my grades were too low. Grades matter. Grades matter a lot.

I will, however, agree that while it is possible to get good grades while putting in 200+ hours it is a stupid thing to do. If you are working 400hrs in 6 weeks you are doing something wrong. Perhaps you need to scale back on what you want to do or perhaps you need to delegate more. Either way, 400 hrs is ridiculous.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Grades do matter but they are definitely not the most important thing. Frankly a ton of kids leave high school with a 4.0 GPA. Having high grades doesn't make a person special, however, the leadership skills and the experiences that can be gained through the FIRST program definitely can. While job hunting having FIRST on my resume gathered much more attention than my GPA. I found that a lot of the younger recruiters were FIRSTers themselves.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Having a cap known to all up front has an advantage in resource planning. The team won't be able to assume that a few ultra dedicated members are going to save the day by dedicating their lives and grades to the effort. If you know the cavalry isn't going to come, you teach everyone how to ride a horse and shoot a gun.

Just monitoring semester grades isn't enough. Since the build season is only six weeks, the effects of weeks of minimal sleep and sloppy homework might not be apparent until you're well into the build season. There's no mechanism at most schools to officially report grade drops over such a short period of time. It would have to be up to the teachers to feed back individual assignment results in some sort informal manner.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

No, not the most important thing they are not something that can be ignored. For me it made the difference between not paying anything for college and 8-10 grand a year. Because I slacked off and thought grades weren't important. Yes extracurriculars are important but having a ton of them and poor grades just shows an utter lack of time management skills. Realize though, we are talking about two different things now. College scholarships and job applications are drastically different things.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I would venture to guess that build season for FRC impacts the other classes that the students on teams attend. Attention-wise, grade-wise, study-wise, attendance-wise. What the cap would (hopefully) do would be to provide an opportunity for the students on the team to bring a little bit of balance into their tight schedules, allowing for some semblance of sanity and attention to courses and schedules outside the realm of build.

I'm not convinced that the majority of teenagers who have access to so many methods of social communication and networking at their fingertips, use wise judgment in time management regarding balancing their studies and build and the other aspects of their lives such as family life and extracurriculars. It's asking a lot for not only the students but also for the mentors - to use wise judgment in finding the balance and in role modeling that balance.

Jane

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I'll take my dream job over a scholarship any day of the week. I'm just saying in five years when you look back at what you
have achieved, your grade on that calc test isn't going to matter. Your efforts are better spent on things that will matter. I'm
not saying to bomb that calc test but its better to keep a healthy perspective on the things that matter in life rather than fretting
over losing a 4.0 gpa.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

For our team we have a special Academics Mentor Coach... she is vital to the team as she keeps an eye on the current grade as well as any tendancies that a student is exhibiting... Is their work suffering?
Did an A student drop to an A- student or a B student...What assignments are coming?
This is a big job and before this year it was difficult to achieve...

In years past we always had a few students that would lose eligibility on the team...
This year we maintained eligibility for 100% of the team members.

This was due to this system and our team study sessions that occurred every day we had an evening meeting.

It takes diligence by both mentors/coaches and students to make sure that academics are taken care of.

I agree that having FIRST on a resume is important... however... if you don't maintain grades and keep your GPA up.... the admissions people won't even be looking at those resumes....

I think we all know that students ( or anyone for that matter) will always do things that are more interesting and stimulating to them... The trap some students fall into is that robotics is so much fun... and in many cases.... it seems more relevant....more real life....so they devote themselves to it. Unfortunately many high school classes don't seem to have the same relevance...depending on your teacher...

Nothing wrong with this... but they need to have balance...
Family, Academics and Robotics... all need that balance.

It takes a lot of work to do this... it simply can't be done by instituting a "rule" that you can't spend more than XXX hours....for some students.... 10 hours a week would be too much...
for others ... it could be more.... or less...

Everyone needs to be involved... coaches, mentors, parents AND students....
It takes a village to raise a robotics student...

Please excuse that reference to a cliched phrase... but it actually does fit...

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

First off, how do we know they didn't contact the parents?

I agree with your general opinion that it should be a matter of personal (and parental) responsibility. However, that hasn't succeeded to this point, as some students have been adversely impacted by the time they put in, and weren;t able to handle the responsibility given to them or balancing FIRST and the rest of their life. Rather than having this continue, sometimes it is the responsibility of the school to step in and try and ensure that these failures don't happen. Especially a selective private school with a history and reputation to uphold (such as the one in question).

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Blanket policies for all students because a handful can't handle robotics? I'd like to think educational policies should be more individualized than that.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Balance is important. Not all parts of your life necessarily need to have the face focus during all periods of time, but some overall balance should be maintained. It's incredibly different to find this balance- it's something you have to continually work at throughout your whole life.

Balance does fall in a different place for everyone, however, many people have trouble recognizing when they have lost control things, both as high school students and later on in life. It's understandable that if students' grades are starting to suffer, the school administration would like to place reasonable limits on how much time they can devote to robotics. Spending 300-400 hours in the shop over the course of a 6-week period is getting excessive, and probably unnecessary. One of my friends mentioned to me recently that work is like a gas- it expands to fill the amount of time you have to do it. I find that this can often be true. Try to keep things in perspective- is logging 300 hours during build season really necessary or healthy? Try to be more efficient- use the time you do have in the shop wisely, and remember that you need to leave time focus on other things in life too.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

What clubs, student organizations, and athletic teams do you know of that have more individualized policies?

We have to also keep in mind that FIRST teams in schools are a good thing, not a bad thing. We should hope to keep the welcome mat out and firmly in place rather than wear out that welcome. It's up to the team to do its part to work with their school and keep it positive and working towards a support network of faculty and administrators helping the team succeed.

Jane

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I come from smaller schools so my experience is different, but generally when academic performance falls, administration may encourage / make students drop clubs until their grades rebound, even if they're not at probationary levels. Teams I've been on also do grade checks and at the very least talk with students when these things happen, possibly encouraging students to miss meetings to make up for work.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

The school in question is only 280 students, so the capability for individualized education is definitely there (and seems to exist based on the posts from 1540). But that doesn't mean you throw all regulations out the window, either. It was mentioned that all extracurriculars had caps, and robotics had somehow managed to avoid them previously.

It's most likely possible to grant individual exceptions to the rule in the right scenario, but to not have the rule to begin with because you're going to make individual judgments eliminates the impetus to budget your time beforehand.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

We are getting ready to begin our third year and the amount of hours students are putting into Robotics is very concerning to me. Most importantly, safety. Either driving late at night or being careless with equipment because of lack of sleep.

I am the parent of two kids playing high school basketball. Which takes place for the first half of our build season. Our robotics kids put in three to five times as many hours than my kids do their high school teams.

I think it is totally crazy to see this much time being spent building a robot. I do not think it was the intent of FIRST to have students devote this many hours building a robot. Not during a school year.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

What's the problem? "Oh Johnny is a straight A student, but he stays up late at night and works really hard for his grades. We should stop it. It's not fair to students who don't work hard and get poor grades." That's a bunch of hooey.

My next question is how is this going to be enforced? Will the school hire spies to watch what people are doing when they're out of school? Or will they put software that shuts down your computer when you fire up Netbeans after x amount of hours coding?

And what's wrong with being obsessed with a problem? What if Bill Gates had been told to stop spending so much time at his high school's computer lab coding? Or Edison to stop staying up all night working away? Or Dean Kamen to stop thinking about the Segway? So what kind of message does this send to students? "Homework is important, but you can only spend a small amount of time on it. What's more important is that you have fun, and enjoy life".

Yeah - like that's the kind of attitude we really need right now.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

The level of effort that some students expend is not for every student. I managed to do FRC, race varsity alpine for my HS (during the entire FRC season), and get good grades. It was an enormous amount of work, but I started to find out where my limits were both mentally and physically, which is probably one of the most valuable things I've ever learned and most definitely contributed to my success in college.

I find no fault with someone who devotes a large (even excessive) amount of time to pursuing what they are passionate about.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I feel that the students/parents need to control this issue. In 2010, I did FRC, was on the Varisty swim team, and was in band (a good 4 hours outside of school a week). My grades actualy IMPROVED during the season. Granted I am not on a school team, so I don't have the same issues that others do, but to me, if the student wants to put in 2, 3, 400 hours of work on a robot, and can get good grades, there is nothing wrong with that.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I wholeheartedly agree with this view. Robotics provided me with utterly invaluable skills for college--and, I strongly suspect, for the rest of my life. Responsibility, teamwork, leadership, organization, communication... and a host of basic technical skills. Near the top, though, is definitely time management. (2 years as captain-manager and mechanical lead, 500-600hrs/season, above a 4.0, with Air Force Auxiliary and marching band will do that.)

In college, I have 20 credits/semester with a 3.9 in honors engineering, plus Air Force ROTC, band, and 200hrs/build season with a 7hr round-trip commute. I've had friends with half the commitments really screw themselves over for want of those HS skills and experiences. (The irony? I wouldn't have graduated high school if not for robotics. It put me on track--gave me something to live for.)

Far be it from me to begrudge a student that opportunity. Is everyone ready for it? No. Can one always tell? Building up slowly and getting to know people helps, but no, it can't be perfect. I'll do everything in my power to help a dedicated student understand their limits as painlessly as possible, but sometimes you've got to hit them on your own. That trial-by-fire was the single most important step in my education--in my life--to date. No one could have carried me through that, and in retrospect, I wouldn't have wanted them to. Wonder if they knew that at the time. ;)

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

When the problem you are obsessed with (robotics) isn't your most pressing issue, then something is wrong. School and having a balanced healthy life is more important than an after-school robotics club.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I think that is often the hope and the intent. :) It is very very rewarding to see when it happens - which is not always.

Jane

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

First off, sorry for the delayed response. I had to remember what the heck I was talking about nearly 4 months ago...

No one ever mentioned homework so I am not sure where this is coming from.

Actually, obsession is not healthy. There is a lot of joking about how people are "overdosed on FIRST" but for the most part we need to lead normal lives. Diversifying our interests is good for the human mind and schools should encourage students to take part in many activities and discourage one activity from consuming an inordinate amount of a student's time. Actually, I do think that schools should make it clear to teachers and students that part of high school is also about what happens outside the classroom setting.

The attitude that you catch more bees with honey than with vinegar? Actually, yes it is. Statements about how it is not enforceable or how it is "stupid" don't mean anything when the people in charge think of your team as a bunch of "petulant little snots" and decide to teach you a lesson. I don't often get along with people but I know that when I want something I have to give something in return.

If I want an exception to a policy that I feel is overly restrictive I need to make a valid case. I need to start off with acknowledging that the intent of the policy is sound but the implementation conflicts with our goals (which the school presumably agrees with). Then you need to outline how you have a series of policies in place that adhere with the intent of the policy. Finally you need to prove that your policies were effective the following year. This will help you in the future should you find yourself in conflict again.

The other alternative which I see employed is to resort to attacking the person. Saying the administrators are "misguided, power hungry, control freaks who smell of hamster dung" is sure to NOT work.*


Furthermore, the school has decided to implement this policy. We can debate if it is needed (personally, I feel it is a noble goal but I disagree with it) until the pigs blow up but that won't make any difference. Instead perhaps this discussion should move towards how teams have helped teach students proper time management skills. Perhaps also we should look at what we, as mentors, can do to help students become more balanced.


*Do not ask for more details on how I know this...

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Whoa...This thread was dead for..like...months. Nice resurrection.

Anyway, my team just needs to put in some more effort, like at the level of near-fanaticism. Hopefully, we have a sufficiently insane team to pull that off. :)


Thaine

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I found my limits in H.S. I fell behind in schoolwork, pretty drastically in some cases, and I had several extracurriculars. Long story short, I had to cut back and add some discipline. This included showing up to class when the instructor knew, from seeing me at the L.A. Regional on practice day, that I had a robotics competition on a class day, and would have given an excused absence. (I was also late getting to the event the next day, due to a different class.)

I know from that experience that I can't juggle more than about 3-4 major projects at any given time. Back then, it was school, robotics, and Scouts that stayed; sports and the school yearbook fell by the wayside. In college, I quit playing with the soccer club after 2 seasons, not because I wasn't playing but because I needed more schoolwork time (and another team--Aero Design--was taking more and more time).

Now, someone else might think "3-4 projects/activities? That's nothing! I do twice that in the offseason!" I remind you who may think that that you are not me and I am not you. That's probably a good thing, otherwise we wouldn't be able to come up with different crazy designs to do the same thing...

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Make no mistake- being a member of a FIRST team requires an incredible amount of responsibility and maturity. Those are two factors that our team stresses at every possible opportunity. We haven't had a problem with it yet, but if we notice that a student is looking like they need a break, we will send them home.

I would highly encourage you to either talk directly with your team's mentors or get involved with the team yourself. If your team doesn't look out for students as much as it should, start changing that. No one should operate equipment without mentor supervision either, so the mentors should take notice if a student is trying to work a machine while overworked.

Luckily, all of the members on our team know their limits. Students don't show up when they have projects to finish or when they need a break. The students who are the most committed to the project and have the time to spare have also always been the ones who know how long they can work effectively and when they need to throw in the towel and get some sleep. As I said before, the best way to help your team is to get involved.

The "how will they stop us" defense never works, and is a poor stance to take. Most school districts do have plenty of ways of enforcing this. Detention and suspension are always possible, and the district can stop students from going on field trips (with the team or classes) amongst many other punishments.

This is exactly what high school is for, and exactly what I did as well.
Anyone who has been near a serious marching band or winter drumline knows how much dedication that takes. I managed to spend 4 years with robotics and drumline constantly clashing. For 6 weeks I was often at school from 7am to 10pm, simply walking from one activity to another. The most extreme case was the night before ship this year, when I didn't get home until 4am. I graduated with an 11.3 (yea, we use the 12-point scale) GPA. It was difficult, but a little bit of planning on my part made it possible.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

First, and quite tangentially, I see that SouthCarolinaRo has negative rep for this statement. I find that appalling - this parent obviously has valid concerns for his or her children, and would benefit from an open and positive-to-neutral discourse about the situation, not negative reputation points (I know, they're just dots, but they still carry a connotation).

Back to the point - I do not know how your children's robotics team is run, I can only go from the experience of my team and conversations I've had with teams around me. Athletic teams have mandatory meetings and practices, both in and out of the season. If a player misses a practice, he or she may not start/play in the next game.
However, robotics is different. If a student, or that student's parents, feel that too much time is being used in this one endeavor, that student absolutely has the right to "miss practice" once in a while. I expect Varsity CyberCards to be at >80% of team functions, and Junior Varsity members to be at >60%. Realistically, most kids are here for everything, but if they need to take some time for schoolwork/job/other activities, we all understand.
Talk to your team's head mentor or lead teacher, see if you can work out a compromise. If you say your children have to be home by 8pm, or can only be there 5 days a week, I'm sure the team leaders would be receptive to your concerns.
Regarding your last paragraph, it is important to realize the purpose of FIRST is not simply to build a robot. The intent of FIRST is to "inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership." (taken from usfirst.org) As long as the goal is being met, the time being spent on that goal is completely irrelevant.
In FIRST, as with everything else, people get out of it what they put into it.
Regarding the timing of build season, there isn't really a 4-month period anywhere else in the year where all the things the happen in a FIRST season can happen. If it was held during the summer, the program would die. I've been bitten by the FIRST bug just about as hard as anybody, but I wouldn't be willing to give up my summer family time for it.
As has been said before, sometimes boundaries need to be set, limitations should not be exceeded haphazardly, and sometimes those are deeply individual and personal things.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

This topic has been a discussion inside our team for a while since we have had students and mentors put 400+ hours in from 1 Jan through our final regional. (I'm one of them). We've talked about putting hour limits down but presently our view is:

1) School comes first. We follow up on all of the kids with their teachers at school to make sure they are keeping up with their class work. We also follow up on behavior issues and if the school suspends a roboteer for bad behavior we also follow their lead.

2) Family wishes come next. If a parent says "little Foster can only work 4 hours a week" then it's 4 hours. We work with the parents to understand what we are doing and what their requirements are. Siri is putting the final touches on a guide that spells out what the work schedule looks like. In most cases we are comfortable with about a 20 hour per week commitment.

We do have late build sessions at the end of the build cycle and sometimes parents are not happy about coming out late to get roboteers. We will organize transportation for them with the parents permission.

3) Health. If a roboteer is sick or exhausted we will send them home. We are very aware that some are burning the candle at both ends. To the best of our ability we monitor food and beverage intake to make sure that people are eating and drinking.

4) Other activities. At one level it's not my problem. I'm not going to go to another activity mentor (like band) and go "Hey I have an issue with the time that you require". And when those mentors come to me to complain I'm going to tell them that they need to work it out with the student. At another level I am going to check in with the student and make sure they are doing the things that are important to them and that we are not pressuring them to work for us.

There will be ranges in how many hours get put in and where. Two years ago one of the roboteers was interested in electrical and only electrical. He came in for 2 design / planning sessions and during the three build nights for electrical and did nothing but that. He was happy, we were happy and so everyone was happy with the experience. Total time was about 30 hours.

And then there is Siri and she did work crazy hours her junior and senior years along with her freshman year at school. (At some level I'd like to be 1/2 as energetic and organized as she is.) Other students that have gone away to school (or going away) have said that they want to be mentors and we gently push them to go to college and focus on that. We gently pushed on Siri but as you can tell from her note we had limited success.

So in summary "It is what it is" - roboteers and mentors will try to work the hours they want. As long as they are keeping the other balls in the air (School, family, health) then I'm good with their hours. You only get out of life what you put into it. When there is a problem we will step in and try to get things back on track.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Warning: This is more about alumni mentor hours than HS students'.

I appreciate the push, though. In fact, I also gently push our graduates towards college and tell them to get settled before even considering robotics. (Which I did indeed do, not participating basically at all fall semester. And now I'm about to break 1000 hours since kickoff. Anyway...) I talk to them about their grades and commitments too. Most think it's a little weird, but it works. If they're going to come back, I'd rather it be in spite of me rather than because my example. It shows they really want to be here (also, that we're patently insane), and they're doing it entirely of their own volition. The way I see it, everything from there on is their problem, though I'll of course try to help if they ask. This is my basic philosophy with the HS kids too (though with less "grow up" than I offer the alumni), along with the overruling points Foster explained.

Personally, I'm just a ridiculously stubborn person to get rid of. Foster should really know this by now. :P

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I feel that although the 200 hours rule may seem like not enough , when you do the math, it really isn't that bad...

If you say you're pulling in 400 hours in the robotics lab (meaning, not counting work at home). Even if you work all seven days of the week, you're still pulling in 9.5 hours PER DAY!!!! 9.5 hours of robotics everyday, plus 7 hours of school, and there's only 7.5 hours left in the day....Not to be rude or anything, but thats a little much.....

As captain I put in more time than any other students on my team. I can say that I usually put in about 4 hours of solid work at home per week, plus the 4 hours Mon-Thurs, 6ish hours Friday, and 7 Saturday. Not counting at home work time, thats only 174 hours, and even that is a LOT of hours. A Typical 9-5 work day would clock in at 240 hours in the six weeks

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Oh Andrew, I was waiting for your reply. :)

Actually Andrew, homework was mentioned in the initial post. But we'll get back to this later.

As to the "straw man" argument, let's examine what you said.

User rtfgnow said:
To which you responded with:
I'm assuming that the problem you're talking about here, "" is about students not getting enough sleep or their performance dropping. My "Johnnie example" describes an edge case or scenario where a student who works hard for their grades by studying and on homework (I'm one of those BTW) would be hurt by this new rule. In summary you cried, "but they don't know their limits" and I responded with "so what?". That brings me to my next point.

Limits. We all have them. Right now on my team many of our members participate on crew which gets pretty intense during the second half of the season. Since we were a rookie team last year many of the students didn't realize the commitment level they would need to give for robotics. However, our team coaches (and one parent very involved with the school's crew team) made sure to communicate any scheduling conflicts and help team members make the right choices as to what to do when there was no way of avoiding a conflict.

For some members they had to choose one or the other (our team is actually pretty intense - we're not the type where you can show up one day a week and call yourself a member), but that was a really great experience for them. They learned what their limits were.

Now I thought it was interesting to see a parent's perspective on the forum:

Yeah, that's an issue. Assuming that you're not like many parents - easily worried ;) - then you should talk to the student/mentor.

Fantastic! I'd also bet they have three to five times as much fun at a competition.

I'm honestly offended by that statement. To many kids, including myself, robotics is the greatest thing that ever happened to them during high school, so spending hours working on a problem isn't crazy at all. Also, the kids spending the "crazy amount of time" working on the robot are making a choice to do so. So either they enjoy torturing themselves, or they are actually engaged and thinking about something important and interesting.

It really seems to me that our culture is on this crusade against greatness and exceptionalism. You either have to be a singer or football player to be great. You can't have a desire to build things, invent, create, or make more money than you ever dreamed of without getting attacked by someone who thinks you need balance in your life or to "tone it down". Why is it that we all have to be mediocre so we don't offend anyone?

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

As the team facing these restrictions, one of the other things we'll be doing this season is moving from a paper log, where everyone self-records their time, to a biometric timeclock like these.

Having solid data about how much people are really in the lab has become more important than it used to be. As people have mentioned, 200 true hours in the lab over a six week build season is really quite a lot.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

From the Original Post:
Something that is not often considered by students is the idea of legal supervision. It seems that the "lab" in question must be owned by the school. It must therefore be supervised by someone who can be legally responsible for students - usually a teacher. Some schools require that an administrator and/or custodial staff must be present on a campus if students are present. Even if students are ready, willing and able to spend late hours in the lab, that doesn't mean that the schools faculty, administration and/or support staff are. There may be other reasons that such limits are in place beyond student grades.

If your school allows students to be in a classroom without supervision, they must have very, very good lawyers, because they are risking a lawsuit. Add a "shop" or "lab" into the mix and it only gets worse. All it takes is a slip and a grieving parent to end a program. This gets more likely the later the hours are and the more tired/overworked everyone is.

Work within the limits and see what you can accomplish. Work with your school administration and share your concerns, but first be sure to look at the situation from their point of view.

Perhaps this is what the 2011 season is about for your team. As has been observed time and time again - if you think this about robots - you're missing the point.

-Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

It is, or is it? and that is what this discussion is about. (and you forgot those 18 hour weekends) In a four month period can you do 400 hours? I'll speak to my case of working, being a VEX mentor and being an FRC mentor. The time commitment is huge. I spend a good 1/4 of my time in emails, ordering parts and doing updates to the web site to keep people informed. And in some ways it matches what happens on a big project launch. So I spend 'spare time' doing robot team stuff.

It's never been about the robots. But the robots make an interesting misdirection that we all use. So its ALL about the robots. :rolleyes:

Over 30% of my time is ordering parts, driving for parts, updating websites, dealing with emails and putting together required paperwork. Next time your robot club meets, stand up and go "Hey who is the NEMO (Non Engineering Mentor) and what do you do?" And when they go through the 100's of tasks that happen behind the scenes try not to be surprised that the engineering part of a FIRST robot is less than 1/2 of the things that go on.

Oh yea I forgot, reading and posting on CD, thats a good 10 hours a week, but thats another thread.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I couldnt tell you how many hours me or my teammates put into the robots, however I think our team has a wonderful system of dealing with grades, which I think the hour limit may have been put for fear of Homework neglect

Grades: You MUST have a C+ [about 79%] or better to participate, and either a high B- or better [84+%] to go on trips depending on how far and how long we are leaving for. If you drop below the participation grade you must go to study hall and get your grade up to come back, or we assume you think Robotics is not worth the efforts to be in. [If you dont come to study hall when your grade drops and/or dont get your grades up in a time period to be decided by the coach you get kicked]

It works really well... After starting this, our avg team GPA came up almost .5! Its a huge difference than before when during build season when all our grades got ignored and dropped far below what collages would look for.

Yes, robotics is a good thing, a good way to learn, and a good thing on applacations for Collage and work, but grades are far more important than saying "I was in robotics and neglected my grades..." on collage Apps.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

While this thread has meandered through many good topics throughout its 80 posts, it's important to remember the original context. From the very first post:

Putting in 400 hours of work over 6 weeks is 2.5x more time per week then 400 hours over 4 months. It was also specified as being in lab time, so you can presume that there was more time spent out of lab. Lastly, it was specified as student(s). Presumably, less people need to worry about your workload then a student.

Given the constraints of the original poster, I find those hours to be excessive, like the person you quoted. Changing the constraints to the way you stated them is much more reasonable, but isn't what we were asked to consider.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

My team is literally student led in every way we have 1 mentor who helps with the mechanics, a team member who graduated but helps with programming, a teacher advisor who only attends tournaments, and a few other mentors who show up on weekends sometimes.

The reason for our lack of mentors is that, after a management change at the company my dad (our coach and primary mentor) works for he has been unable to commit to anywhere near as much time as before. to compound this problem, we already had our long time mentor from JPL go to work for a different company and has been only able to attend practices on the weekends.

If my school(s) put limits on the time I could put in during the season I really think that it would not do me (~4.5 GPA) or the team any good. My brother and I put in countless hours during the season. On our team the more experience team members (like myself and other group leaders) end up assuming a mentor-like role at practices. As a result our experienced members will end up putting in 3-4 hr. a night during the school week at build sessions and additional 8-10 hr. a day on weekends. I also have to handle all of the CAD for my team and end up putting in anywhere from 40-100 hrs. in on my own time to CAD up the robot. My brother the team president has to plan out the meetings and any other team event on top of handling sponsors and the registration stuff. In the last week those student leaders will end up putting in about 150 hrs. as we finalize the robot.

If a time limit were imposed on my team it would likely decapitate the leadership and would either cause the team to collapse (which we are already in danger of) or we would have to just ignore the restriction (which wouldn't be that hard for us considering I live at our build site, my house). I don't know how many other teams have a situation similar to ours but if it were to happen to my team the likely result would be no team.

my estimates for the hours put in on our team are:
Me ---- 500+ hr. (I only have school 3 hours a day for most of the season.)
my brother, and VP ---- 400 hr. each
Other team leaders (8 members) ---- 250+ hr.
Regular team members (10 members) ---- 100+ hr.
Club members (15 members) ---- 40 hr.
A large number of the hours for our team members come in the last 4-5 days of the build when we usually have a 4 day weekend and meetings run 15-20 hr. a day for some members.

I think a wiser and more effective solution would be to maintain a minimum GPA like you would on a sports team. That way the team leaders, who I can say that on my team all have high grades, can still lead the team.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

Maybe the school would be willing to work on a system like this:
A average: 500 hours / 6 weeks
B average: 400 hours / 6 weeks
C average: 200 hours / 6 weeks
D average: 100 hours / 6 weeks

Though, it's important to note that FIRST is the kind of program that brings relevance back to school for the talented kids who've just given up.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

While requiring a certain GPA in order to qualify for the team would be fine at most schools (we don't have letter grades as such) with only a six week build season a student can destroy their standing in a class before that reality is apparent to the team, parents or the administration. By the time the grades come out at the end of the semester it's too late to do anything about it.

In the past I've told teachers and parents to keep me in the loop if they notice a student is having problems. That works only sporadically, though.

The course workload at our school got so intense a few years ago that the administration instituted a school-wide effort to restrict the amount of homework a particular class can require per week, the amount of practice time a sports coach can require, etc. Until this coming year robotics has not been subject to these limits because the time you put in is voluntary once you exceed our 50hr per build season requirement. This new 200 hrs-in-the-lab circuit breaker is consistent with this idea of not letting one class or activity completely block out everything else in a student's life. Note this limit doesn't include time at home working on robotics, competitions, outreach events, etc.

I'm keeping an open mind about it.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

On RUSH we had grade reports we had to have our teachers sign every week. I know you don't have grades in the traditional sense but would having teachers sign off that a student is performing adequately in their class be an acceptable method for determining if they are keeping up?

Also, while I disagree with the principle of telling students that they cannot spend more time doing X than a certain amount I have to say I like the concept of this policy. Perhaps the 200 hr hard cap could be relaxed a little but overall it doesn't seem like the sort of knee jerk reaction some school policies feel like. Additionally, it sounds like the school administration is really in touch with the needs of their students and would be willing to work with you should this policy be shown to have a negative affect on the program.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

On team 418 we also are a student run and built team and we set two limits. 1st is that our students are passing all their subjects. This should be met during both build season and when we travel to competitions and is non-negotiable. 2nd is a minimum number of hours to be eligable to travel with the team. This is a minimum of 90 hours and is broken down into two catagories (a) service to the team & (b) fundraising. The service to the team is a minimum of 60 hours and can be credited as build, design, website, technical writing or any other service to the team. The fundraising is hours spent directly working on fundraising. Socliciting sponsors, stadium cleanups, car bashes, you name it.

We have many team members that exceed the minimum, some that just barely make it and some that we miss at competition. But as long as they keep their priorities straight and manage their time well we have never, nor has the school ever imposed a maximum number of hours a student could work. Parents always have that option. For the record, we typically work 3:30 - 6:00 Monday - Thursday and Saturday morning. We do not meet on Fridays or Sundays.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

The weekly sign off idea might be a good one if the 200hr cap doesn't work for us this season. It's a lot of paperwork but would be a good alternative.

I do like one aspect about the cap being known upfront... that student leaders need to learn delegation skills and make sure other members in their departments are fully trained so they can take over more of the load.

Our team has a very full fall schedule building multiple robots for a pre-season game, the BunnyBot Competition. We use this as a training time for new members or those switching departments. It takes on new importance with the new time caps as it's our best opportunity to make sure everyone can contribute fully during the build season.

Re: Limits on Team Hours
 

I attend a Middle College High School, meaning I take 4 high school classes and up to 11 units of college courses per semester. Our school requires us to get progress reports (indicating our current grade, attendance, performance relative to rest of class, and other comments) from our college professors every few weeks in order to make sure that we maintain acceptable grades and do not fall behind. A similar system may be used for monitoring students grades during the build season instead of having students maintain a GPA if that is not available.