Use of pop-rivets?
 

Hey, guys. Just wondering how many of your teams out there use pop rivets extensively (or at all) Looking at other bots, i noticed other teams dont use them nearly as much as we do. Just seeing what everyone else does, im not build team, so im not really involved with why we do what we do in some regards.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

We really only use them on IFI wheels. Other than that, we really don't. We've found that replacing a rivet takes longer than a bolt, and rivets aren't quite as forgiving when replacing.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

I know a few people who will argue you to the death on that one.

If you want to see rivets, check out a 1501,217,148,33 machine

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

We like to use them with sheet metal and lexan portions of our robot. It's easy to drill them out if we need to replace the hardware. As you know, they're quick and easy to install and rivets won't rattle loose like screws do.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

We use lots of rivets, as we do a lot with sheet metal. Lots.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

We used pop rivets this year for our wheel mounts, and they worked fine for us.

Edit: The mounts were bolted on, we riveted additional supports on

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

Sorry I should have elaborated. My team uses 1/16" thick 1"x1" aluminum tubing in most of our applications (we haven't quite reached a point where we use sheet metal). Our style of robot building works well with bolts, and I don't really see us changing (unless we start using sheet metal more extensively).

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

They're really useful for little things like spacers, lexan, etc.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

In the past two years the only reason we've used pop rivets for is to rivet strips of wegetop to aluminum tube, to make rollers

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

We didn't use rivets much this year, but that was almost our entire hardware for Lunacy. Our robot that year was pretty much just 1/8" and 1/16" stock metals (angle, tube, etc.) and they work really well. Replacing them (which we rarely had to do) was pretty quick and easy.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

My old team used them in 2009 for mounting our bumpers and to build a camera mount/Lexan cover support. You can see them here, in the CAD model from that year.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

My team uses rivets almost exclusively on our robot. I can't think of any system on the 'bot in which you wouldn't find a single rivet.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

This year we did not have a lot as we used 80-20 which required special fasteners, but in previous years they were used in most of the robot. They are nice because they are light, but use too many of a large size and you might as well use a bolt and they need to be drilled out. Overall they are better than bolts and highly recommend them on most parts unless you want a strong connection that will not break and stay in place under extreme forces.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

What kind of spacer would you secure with a rivet?

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

We use pop rivets of varying sizes everywhere. Only items which must use a bolt (such as an axle) get screw threads, everything else is a rivet.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

They were really thin lexan ones on the base--they weren't secured solely with rivets. Rivets simply helped in holding down the middle.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

Wanna race?? You unbolt and rebolt a screw, while I drill and re-pop a rivet...we will see who wins

Seriously though, rivets are very easy to remove/replace.

-Brando

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

I've heard this tossed around forever, and yes, drilling out a rivet and reriveting with a drill is fast... compared to a bolt with hand tools.

When the bolt is allowed to be removed with a drill (we have have ballpoint hex bits in nearly every size, along with a couple handrills with clutches, and a 6", 12", 18" and 24" extension... Not to mention 90% of the bolts on the bot use the exact same hex/wrench size), it gets a lot more even. I'd almost even lean towards a bolt winning; we can remove bolts in obscure buried places where no rivet could be drilled out.

That being said, I LOVE rivets. I just wanted to throw the counterargument out there.

I feel there is no right method and right answer, it's all about using the appropriate item in the appropriate place.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

Take a look at 1501 from especially this year and you'll see the great use of rivets.

We use them for tread mostly. We also find them very useful when you want to attach something at the edge of the robot dimensions.

I also see rivets very often in every day places especially on the nyc subway, they are everywhere.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

We used 3/16" and !/8" pop rivets extensively on major frame components this year. The frame was put together first with bolts to get the alignment just right, then we replaced each bolt with a rivet. We also used washers to give the rivets some extra holding power.

We also used aluminum bolts with standoffs for the drive modules.

We never had any problem with rivets, and they are quite easy to drill out and replace if the need should arise.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

It depends on the robot design. It's not a trademark design item for us like it is for some teams, but on robots involving sheet metal (mainly 2007 and 2010 for us), there will be lots of rivets.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

In the past 6 years Team 1501 has used over 10,000 rivets.
Last years robot had over 2000 rivets :ahh:
To say we know rivets would be an understatement.
We use a method called Monocoque (french for "One Skin"). Most of our robots do NOT hanve an internal structure. It is all bent aluminum. We use mostly .040" sheets. We have used T6 aluminum before also.
Anyone want to learn Monocoque? If so, e-mail me and I will get you a CD on how to do it.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

We've used a mix of bolts (mainly 1/4-20 with a few 3/8-16 for axles) and pop-rivets in the past with decent success. 2009 was probably our most riveted robot, where we used rivets to construct most of our upper structure.

If we ever manage to get a pneumatic rivet gun we'll probably switch almost exclusively to rivets.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

A bit off topic, but does anybody know a good supplier for aluminum bolts? Mcmaster is the only place that sells them that I can find, but they are almost 50cents a bolt and only offer a few sizes. Just by using them on our wheels this year, they save more weight than you might think. Thanks!

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

your local hardware store should have what you need... we used home depot or lowes for all of that

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

1756 used a lot of them this year for our paneling. They were a pain, though. I didn't like them because they didn't hold very well, and we seemed to be replacing them frequently. They were more convenient than metal rivets most of the time.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

This year we used long heavy-duty ones to attach our pivot plates (crab drive) and do some non-structural work on our kicker. We've grown away from using them for wheel treads in favor of Plactions. Mostly we're not shy about using them when it fits, but we don't go crazy with it.

I haven't found a really solid supplier. Home Depot's got some, Grainger's got a few (though cheap is probably not the word for them).

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

Does anyone know of a good source for prefabricated aluminum L brackets and gussets drilled out for a 3/16" rivet? Sure we can continue to make them ourselves and, I guess with a jig, it would go pretty fast. If they were off the shelf somewhere though that would be temping.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

A bit off topic, but does anybody know a good supplier for aluminum bolts? Mcmaster is the only place that sells them that I can find, but they are almost 50cents a bolt and only offer a few sizes. Just by using them on our wheels this year, they save more weight than you might think. Thanks!

Mcmaster has a good supply of 1/4" 20 hex bolts that are not unreasonable. Lengths range from 1/2" to at least 4" and you can get longer but they won't be fully threaded. Once you go over that size they get a bit pricey, but 1/4" is plenty big for most fastening applications. That's our standard size bolt.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

i don't mean to sound critical but why would you want to use an aluminum bolt?
Aluminum isn't terribly good in shear....

Why not just drop down to a smaller size bolt if you want to reduce weight? #10 bolts are just a little over 1/2 the weight of 1/4 bolt... aluminum bolts in the same sizes would be about 33% of the weight of steel....but would have substantially less strength than the #10 steel bolts

We rarely use an 1/4 X 20 bolts on our robot... the biggest size we use is 10-24..

compare the weight of a 1/4 -20 bolt and a 10-24 bolt... you might find that that the 10-24 is a better alternative.

Compare the Clamp load of a 1/4# grade 8 bolt to a #10 grade 8 bolt and you will find that the #10 has about the 1550 lbs of clamp load and and a dry assembly torque of nearly 60 in lbs...
!/4" grade 8 bolts have the same clamp load and a dry assembly torque of a little over twice that..(140 in lbs)... if you go to #10 - 32 bolts you go up to 1800 lbs in clamp load and go to nearly 70 in lbs in dry torque...


Our team uses a number of different types of fasteners... we are gradually changing over to more blind rivet applications as we transition away from weldments to sheet metal construction.

The key to the use of fasteners, in my opinion, is two fold.

One ... use the right one for the job....
Two ... try to limit the types of bolted fasteners (IE try to standardize on your robot...)

To those that are concerned with speed of removal and replacement... either powered or unpowered...

Most of the time...you only have to have access to ONE side of a connection to place or remove a blind (pop) rivet.... any bolt will require access to the other side...to remove the nut...
Of course the easier method would be to install a screw...but this requires an initial drilling and tapping operation...screws are always the easiest fasteners to remove and replace ....

I will happily race anyone to remove and replace 10 bolts vs 10 rivets...
Rivets will win hands down...and always leave a consistent torque application...

There are MANY different types of blind rivets... look into the types... review your options...
do the homework...


i have mentioned this before but it bears repeating...
Do you know what they call 1.5 million rivets flying in formation?



A Boeing 747


:)

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

I would like to see some comparisons of bolts to rivets. Like shear force and clamp load. Also a pros and cons list.

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

Who would have thought a thread about pop rivets would yield 30 replies and stay near the top of recent activity for 2 days? These are some serious robot nerds!
:)

Re: Use of pop-rivets?
 

My biggest concern with pop rivits is that when they are drilled out in a hurry sometimes people are not as careful as they should be with the chips. Can you tell I'm an electrical guy?