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Using A PS3 With The cRio
Whos down? :yikes: Think of all the power you have in your hands. Boot up linux and take charge of the SPUs on the PS3, will be the bomb. Why would you need it you ask? :rolleyes: Autonomous, See the DARPA Cars, they have like 10-20 PC in the trunk. Its $300 so its under the $400 rule and a lot more potential than Arduino or other tiny things. You see where I am going with this? You will have a bad boy of a robot next year if you fully utilize the autonomous perception, logic and have it run on a PS3. Yes sure the PS3 can not control motors itself (Its illegal too BTW) so it communicates with the cRio using an ethernet cable and the sensors with USB bridged by Arduino and cameras just directly connected by USB. Its genius, My goal would be to utilize a PS3 with Fully Autonomous control next year. My dreams get bigger and bigger...
Resources: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/po..._articles.html http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/vi...e_by=Tutorials http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/po...ab1/index.html http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/po...3-1/index.html http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/po...3-1/index.html http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/po...3-2/index.html http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/vi...&Go.x=0&Go.y=0 I made this thread because this forum seems to die off after the competition... Keep the fire burning |
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Sorry to rain on your parade but Sony just disabled the Other OS option for the PS3.
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Also I have 4 USB ports and emotion engine chip but its the Japanese launch PS3, so never updating it.. |
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What about the motor that is used for the bluray drive?
There are 2 reasons why that would be illegal 1 - Motor not in the KOP 2 - Motor not controlled by the cRIO, victor, jaguar, or spike and if there is a hard drive (not solid state), then that is illegal for the same reasons |
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I really am annoyed by the super strict rules that FIRST has... It annoys and pisses me off little by little every day... |
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I Updated anyways thinking I would never use that option anyways... |
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Using the PS3 is an interesting concept. I wonder if this could work out. |
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It'd take a lot of modification, far more than the usefulness it would provide.
Stuff it has: Hard drive Blu-Ray drive (biggest plus) Large number of processor and graphics cores Stuff you would have to take out Blu-Ray Drive Hard Drive Cooling fans on CPU/GPU's (although these can be replaced with KOP fans) What you would get in software if you did all of this: A ridiculous amount of processing power. There is legitimately no way to use all of this on a robot, even with several camera's worth of vision processing. Plus the nVidia GPU cores would do hardly anything. You could use the GPU cores to generate a virtual model of your bot (in real time) with the sensor data vs actual (ghost model vs real model), and even probably a virtual playing field, even with no optimization at all, and not come close to running out of power (but this would take you forever to code) What can you use on your robot, realistically? Vision. That's about it. You can already do just about everything else on the cRio. A PS3 would be way-overkill for the problem (vision). Look at the problem and find the simplest solution. Don't look at a solution and try to find a problem to solve with it. The simplest solution used to be the CMUcam. It worked well. The simplest solution still involves a co-processor (there's just not enough power in the cRio to reliably process vision data), just not one as big as the PS3. About the FIRST rules: They are there for a reason. PWM/Spike outputs from cRio: This is for safety. They can always disable your robot if it is out of control. No wireless: They don't want a spectator in the stands driving the robot. Motors: Exact same power per robot. You can't have more mechanical power then the other guy. It is perfectly legal to have a co-processor as long as it does not drive outputs. This is for safety, it's not FIRST being super-strict. Although one has to wonder how a motor in a Blu-Ray drive would cause a safety issue, one also has to wonder why you would ever need a Blu-Ray drive. Same for the hard drive, the vibrations/impacts sustained during play probably wouldn't be good for it anyway. Edit: After re-reading your original post, I see that you are still bent on fully autonomous. Do you know why DARPA robots have 10 computers? Did you also know that many have far fewer (1-2)? Have you ever heard of IGVC? They run an autonomous ground-vehicle competition in grass fields, with robots roughly the size of ours, and use 1-2 computers per robot. Most of that goes into vision. The cRio is capable enough to handle the navigation and state-machines if it has the vision data processed separately. On a FIRST field, the navigation is purely 2d, so that simplifies things greatly. Then, its just up to having a co-processor reading the images, and determing data such as the distance forward, horizontal, and angle and feeding it to the cRio to navigate on. I completely agree that you need more processing to work with images, but the PS3 may not be the correct answer. |
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I would use a small single-core PC and connect it only to the camera (usb) and Ethernet to the cRio. Nothing else.
Here are its primary tasks: Get image and find shapes Relate shapes to objects Determine angle of shapes and position in space Filter objects that are invalid (e.g. too far away or whatnot) Send remaining array of objects to cRio Many platforms can do that. The cRio can too, but that takes too much power away from everything else. |
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edit: lets do some math: R = 8 bit B = 8 bit G = 8 bit Therefore RGB pixel = 24 bit Lets use 800 * 600 resolution 480,000 pixels in 1 image Thats 11,520,000 bits per image Or 1.37329102 megabytes per image And lets say we are taking 60 pics per second: 82.3974612 MBs per second Now image 4 cameras 329.589845 MBs per second usage in the ram. Thats is alot of memory just for imaging. Yes you can argue you should compress it better or have better memory management, I am merely trying to prove a point. You need a lot of juice |
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I was assuming 320x240 at 10fps, since that is reasonably fast and low power. I was assuming 2 cams max.
You don't really need 4 cameras. What could you do with all of that? |
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one of the cameras would be pointing towards the ceiling, with a reflective cone over it. This would allow for omnidirectional vision. This camera would be useful for most tasks ie navigation, collision avoidance the second camera would be on a pan / tilt gimble. This would be used for finer details that the omni camera couldn't pick up. a use for this would be the vision target this year, use this camera to line up the bot exactly |
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Edit: Major flaw, what class controls the ethernet? I tried looking through the Axis Camera class (the most obvious way to find it) I could not find it... |
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There should be enough throughput in whatever medium that you are communicating with the cRio to send two floating point numbers (the pan -1 to 1, and the tilit -1 to 1). ex: processed data, pan servo val, tilt servo val this shouldn't be a problem because you are already communicating with the cRio, right? |
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' edit: I know how to use the serial, just want to use ethernet, 1gb of info per second? I can just let that go |
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and are you going to use axis 206 (and its replacement) cameras on the coprocessor? if so, look up mjpeg. that is the protocol on which they send the images over ethernet |
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Do you have a camera in mind?
Most USB cameras that I have seen have been primarily webcams, and don't have very good resolution, or high framerate. Edit: As far as communication over ethernet to the cRio goes, implementation details can be found by looking through the 2CAN driver source. That can be found at Firstforge. Firstforge 2CAN repository Login is required |
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Found that, may be will only need 2 |
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here is a tutorial for an omni directional camera: http://dasl.mem.drexel.edu/Hing/tuto...ew_omnicam.htm |
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Considering that the PS3 will have to be hooked up to the control board with a 20 amp breaker slot, this has just become a power-usuage problem. I imagine that it may be possible if the breaker was dipped in liquid nitrogen prior to the match, in order to cheat the power use, but I don't think it would last long, and there would also have to be a regulator to give it the proper juice (one that can handle extreme voltage drops common on the robots).
Edit: apparently the PS3's newer models use far less than I expected, even after upgrades, but 60 watts does not seem like a logical figure. |
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Me too. The battery should easily handle the PS3's load, but the problem is giving the PS3 power without inverting the current (I'm working under the assumption that we can only regulate, not invert or overvolt). A regulator would have to be either built or purchased which handles the DC, as the stock PSU would only handle AC.
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I haven't found a rule that would prohibit it, and if it is not prohibited it can be done. As far as the DC PSU goes, there are ATX connectors for 12v DC power supplies, assuming the PS3 uses a regular power supply. |
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One rule says that you can't alter the power pathways. I'm not sure what that means exactly, though...
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And as far as the part that says "(including the power pathways to other sensors or circuits)", the PSU and the PS3 would all be the same "custom circuit" because the PS3 can't be used without the PSU. |
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The Beagleboard has all kind of access to TI's video & audio CODECs under Linux. With the OMAP 3530 on the Beagleboard, you've even got a TI C6X DSP. This is one of the reasons for my low-cost Linux-based robot solution thread. But, if you hold off until next month, the Beagleboard XM will be out and it's got an Ethernet onboard. The standard Beagleboard only has USB and serial interfaces unless you want to pony up for a Zippy board. Realistically, I'd give serious consideration to one of the Gumstix Overo boards. They're based on the same OMAP processor and have more I/O options including an Ethernet via the Tobi add-on board. Check out my Linux thread for more ideas:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=85510 HTH, Mike |
Re: Using A PS3 With The cRio
https://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib...3Apr09_pub.pdf
Start Reading, its very long The first couple pages are a ton of info... My mind is overwhelmed |
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