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-   -   pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85728)

548swimmer 08-05-2010 23:51

pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 

Dave McLaughlin 08-05-2010 23:54

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
I would recommend powering all of the wheels that will be in contact with the ground, including the Omni wheels. In addition to that, are you planning on using the custom traction wheels shown in this model? If so, do the spokes require 3D contouring?

548swimmer 08-05-2010 23:58

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave McLaughlin (Post 961095)
I would recommend powering all of the wheels that will be in contact with the ground, including the Omni wheels. In addition to that, are you planning on using the custom traction wheels shown in this model? If so, do the spokes require 3D contouring?

I'm not sure how to power the omni's when they're in a suspension. We may use the custom wheels, the spokes are flat, no fillet's into the rim.

Eugene Fang 09-05-2010 01:03

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 548swimmer (Post 961098)
I'm not sure how to power the omni's when they're in a suspension. We may use the custom wheels, the spokes are flat, no fillet's into the rim.

What, may I ask, is the point of the suspension?

kgzak 09-05-2010 01:21

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
could you possibly design a suspension that could keep a chain tensioned? Possible have it move around a point that would have the chain stay tensioned as it goes up and down?

Or could you have a chain tensioner that keeps a chain tensioned by use of springs and have the springs that hold the chain tensioned be easier to compress/expand than the spring or whatever you are using to make the wheels have suspension.

I am trying to design a suspension for our robot next year but the wheels would be powered in one way or another I don't see a point in having a suspension if you are not going to power the wheels. What is the reason behind having a suspension on unpowered wheels?

gyaniv 09-05-2010 01:30

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Why exactly do you need suspension?
Wouldn't it be much easier to lower the center wheels by about 1/8" and power the other wheels with chain? or just going flat 6WD?

548swimmer 09-05-2010 01:46

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
The suspension is there to improve handling, much like a rocker, only smoother.

I was thinking about widening the carriage for the suspension and putting a dual sprocket with a bearing on the dead axle that is the pivot point. Then run chain to the omni.

Eugene Fang 09-05-2010 01:51

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 548swimmer (Post 961112)
The suspension is there to improve handling, much like a rocker, only smoother.

I was thinking about widening the carriage for the suspension and putting a dual sprocket with a bearing on the dead axle that is the pivot point. Then run chain to the omni.

The point of using omnis is to avoid needing to "rock." I don't get how it would be smoother to have it rock AND have omnis.

And if you want it to rock, why don't you just drop the center and forget about the suspension?

If you want to still have the suspension, you could either do what you suggested or make the suspension go up and down along an arc with radius equal to the distance between the front and middle wheels, so the chain has a constant distance.

sanddrag 09-05-2010 01:54

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 548swimmer (Post 961112)
The suspension is there to improve handling

Have you encountered a deficiency in the handling of a rigid (non suspended) drive?

548swimmer 09-05-2010 02:00

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EugeneF (Post 961113)
The point of using omnis is to avoid needing to "rock." I don't get how it would be smoother to have it rock AND have omnis.

And if you want it to rock, why don't you just drop the center and forget about the suspension?

If you want to still have the suspension, you could either do what you suggested or make the suspension go up and down along an arc with radius equal to the distance between the front and middle wheels, so the chain has a constant distance.

How can I make the carriages pivot around the center axel?

There is currently no rock at rest. Once you begin moving the suspension absorbs any jarring movements like sudden stops or turns, making it handle more smoothly.

Eugene Fang 09-05-2010 02:08

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 548swimmer (Post 961115)
There is currently no rock at rest. Once you begin moving the suspension absorbs any jarring movements like sudden stops or turns, making it handle more smoothly.

As sanddrag said, have you had any problems with a rigid drive? How much are you planning to have it rock? Too little rock and it would be practically the same as a rigid drive, and too much rock might affect accuracy of manipulating the game object due to uncontrollable front/back rocking.

Don't get me wrong, I think your idea is really cool. It's just the matter of seeing if all the effort to get it to work is worth it, and if the benefits are true benefits.

Eugene Fang 09-05-2010 02:11

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 548swimmer (Post 961115)
How can I make the carriages pivot around the center axel?

I don't know if this would work structurally, but you could cut slots and make a block that rides in the slot.

The other option would to be have a long arm pivoting on the center axle, but that might be too heavy/bulky for practicality.

548swimmer 09-05-2010 02:16

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EugeneF (Post 961116)
As sanddrag said, have you had any problems with a rigid drive? How much are you planning to have it rock? Too little rock and it would be practically the same as a rigid drive, and too much rock might affect accuracy of manipulating the game object due to uncontrollable front/back rocking.

Don't get me wrong, I think your idea is really cool. It's just the matter of seeing if all the effort to get it to work is worth it, and if the benefits are true benefits.

We haven't had any issues with handling, but why not investagate this in the off season.

With springs tensioning the suspension, it will rock only as far as it needs to. Using a diff. eq. we can figure out the specs on the spring. Ideally, at rest, the spring keeps the wheels exactaly level. Once the robot starts moving and the CG "shifts" the springs will expand cushioning any sudden blow (like a rapid acceleration). Additionally, if this robot starts to get flipped, all wheels can stay on the ground providing some traction. The front ones would lift off the most, increasing the Fn on the rear and center


That still leaves the problem of chain runs though. I'm not sure a slot would have low enough friction, plus the exterior has to be smooth for the bumpers.

EricH 09-05-2010 02:56

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
How about this: Run the chain so that it is long enough to handle the longest dimension, and stick a couple of McMaster part 5896K1 in there as tensioners. That should help keep the chain tensioned correctly, if you don't have too big of difference between longest and shortest chain runs.

548swimmer 09-05-2010 03:04

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 961121)
How about this: Run the chain so that it is long enough to handle the longest dimension, and stick a couple of McMaster part 5896K1 in there as tensioners. That should help keep the chain tensioned correctly, if you don't have too big of difference between longest and shortest chain runs.

We use 25 chain though, so that won't work. I guess we could always make our own...

Do you have any experience with whether or not these fall out or how they work? I don't see how they could tension in a situation like this.

EricH 09-05-2010 03:08

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Not these--they go in the chain, and don't contact the robot frame at all. Should be negligible effect on the suspension.

548swimmer 09-05-2010 03:19

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 961123)
Not these--they go in the chain, and don't contact the robot frame at all. Should be negligible effect on the suspension.

Yeah, I realized that after I posted. How would these work in this situation? If they tension, how do you get them in? Do they allow for the variable chain lengths?

Edoc'sil 09-05-2010 11:10

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Forget the suspension if you are not doing two things:

Driving over rough terrain like the bumps
Powering all wheels


You speak of a "smother ride" and I really do not understand what it will benifit you. If you are concerned about your electronics mount them on a foam surface, or some other kind of protection. If you don't want to jostle the rest of your bot, well, almost all of the jostling comes from collisions, not deceleration from turning and stopping.

Also if your bot cam into any kind of pushing match it would distinctly be in the featherweight class. Not only will the omnis make it so that you well be easily spun, the 4 useless wheels will give you significantly pushing power. On your v1 thread you mentioned that you mechanical guy said he could put 75% of the weight in the center. I do not see how that is possible when you don't know what next years challenge is.


Here is one way to keep the chains in tensioned

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47595136@N03/4592232432/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47595136@N03/4591612471/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47595136@N03/4591612485/

Power the middle wheel run chain to the other axles, and then add a suspension to the angled bars with closed pneumatics.

548swimmer 09-05-2010 11:21

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Edoc'sil (Post 961143)
Forget the suspension if you are not doing two things:

Driving over rough terrain like the bumps
Powering all wheels


You speak of a "smother ride" and I really do not understand what it will benifit you. If you are concerned about your electronics mount them on a foam surface, or some other kind of protection. If you don't want to jostle the rest of your bot, well, almost all of the jostling comes from collisions, not deceleration from turning and stopping.

Also if your bot cam into any kind of pushing match it would distinctly be in the featherweight class. Not only will the omnis make it so that you well be easily spun, the 4 useless wheels will give you significantly pushing power. On your v1 thread you mentioned that you mechanical guy said he could put 75% of the weight in the center. I do not see how that is possible when you don't know what next years challenge is.


Here is one way to keep the chains in tensioned

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47595136@N03/4592232432/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47595136@N03/4591612471/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47595136@N03/4591612485/

Power the middle wheel run chain to the other axles, and then add a suspension to the angled bars with closed pneumatics.

I do want to power the omni's I'm just not sure of the best way to go about this. I like your idea of running pneumatics as shock's, but many members of my team have something against them, so it will be a battle to get them incorporated. I was hoping it would be possible to use springs for the suspension because they add less complexity and weight.

As for the weight distribution, that 75% was assuming the CG was in fact in the geometric center of the robot, and it usually is pretty close to that.

This whole concept may never get built. This is just to inspire the younger designers that I'm training over the summer and to provide us with a jumping off point for next year's challenge. If there is a surface feature like a large washboard or uneven, low steps going up to some important game piece, the suspension will be useful.

Edoc'sil 09-05-2010 12:11

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Your team doesn't like pneumatics? That makes life harder. The same idea works with springs, they just may wear out and cannot be adjusted.

548swimmer 09-05-2010 12:13

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Edoc'sil (Post 961154)
Your team doesn't like pneumatics? That makes life harder. The same idea works with springs, they just may wear out and cannot be adjusted.

Yeah, they might be okay with a closed system, but I know they don't like adding compressors. That's why I'm currently using springs.

Any ideas on how I could tension the chains in the current configuration?

Edoc'sil 09-05-2010 12:33

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
It seems foolish to throw away a useful tool.


And simply no, I do not see a good way to tension it like you have it set up now, mainly do to the fact that springs in a tensioner will allow chains to slip.

Something like this could be converted into that tensioner from mcmaster mentioned earlier. I have never used this style to tension, I have no idea how they work. http://www.mcmaster.com/#sprockets/=70knoq


The link isnt working here is the pn 6793K19

548swimmer 09-05-2010 12:47

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Edoc'sil (Post 961158)
It seems foolish to throw away a useful tool.


And simply no, I do not see a good way to tension it like you have it set up now, mainly do to the fact that springs in a tensioner will allow chains to slip.

Something like this could be converted into that tensioner from mcmaster mentioned earlier. I have never used this style to tension, I have no idea how they work. http://www.mcmaster.com/#sprockets/=70knoq


The link isnt working here is the pn 6793K19

Wouldn't an active chain tensioning system work? So there would be two pieces of nylon with machined slits for the chain to pass through them. They could be hooked together with springs about 75% as strong as the springs on the suspension. As the suspension traveled, the springs on the tensioners would take up the slack generated by the travel. This might work better with an idler sprocket in between, but I'm not sure.

LLogan 09-05-2010 14:54

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 548swimmer (Post 961119)
We haven't had any issues with handling, but why not investagate this in the off season.

With springs tensioning the suspension, it will rock only as far as it needs to. Using a diff. eq. we can figure out the specs on the spring. Ideally, at rest, the spring keeps the wheels exactaly level. Once the robot starts moving and the CG "shifts" the springs will expand cushioning any sudden blow (like a rapid acceleration). Additionally, if this robot starts to get flipped, all wheels can stay on the ground providing some traction.The front ones would lift off the most, increasing the Fn on the rear and center


That still leaves the problem of chain runs though. I'm not sure a slot would have low enough friction, plus the exterior has to be smooth for the bumpers.

The bolded part does not entirely make sense for what you want to do. There is absolutely no point in keeping all the wheels exactly level if only the center ones are driven. Your rear wheels will not be driven, so it's quite useless to increase the normal force on them. In fact, it's detrimental because you're decreasing the normal force that is on the center wheels.

I am unsure of why you are so set on a suspension.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edoc'sil
Forget the suspension if you are not doing two things:

Driving over rough terrain like the bumps
Powering all wheels

The whole point of a suspension is to make sure that the normal force is distributed as evenly as possible. Doing this is only advantageous when each wheel is powered, seeing as your tractive force is based on the sum of the forces of friction and thus the normal forces.

My advice: a suspension is not worth the hassle (and relatively useless) unless you are powering all wheels, or going over a surface that is not flat. To compensate for the sudden stops and starts, perhaps you could try to scale the acceleration and turning to your discretion through programming.

548swimmer 09-05-2010 15:15

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LLogan (Post 961176)
The bolded part does not entirely make sense for what you want to do. There is absolutely no point in keeping all the wheels exactly level if only the center ones are driven. Your rear wheels will not be driven, so it's quite useless to increase the normal force on them. In fact, it's detrimental because you're decreasing the normal force that is on the center wheels.

I am unsure of why you are so set on a suspension.



The whole point of a suspension is to make sure that the normal force is distributed as evenly as possible. Doing this is only advantageous when each wheel is powered, seeing as your tractive force is based on the sum of the forces of friction and thus the normal forces.

My advice: a suspension is not worth the hassle (and relatively useless) unless you are powering all wheels, or going over a surface that is not flat. To compensate for the sudden stops and starts, perhaps you could try to scale the acceleration and turning to your discretion through programming.

I just found a way to drive the wheels, keep the suspension, and tension the chains all at once :D. I'm currently rendering it, and will post it once it's done. This is just in case we don't have a flat surface next year. If we do, it'll most likely get nixed.

kgzak 09-05-2010 15:24

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
I personally like the suspension even if we have a flat surface. Last year the field was flat but at nationals we kept having issues with one or two wheels not touching the ground because of our pick up mechanism which had to touch the ground. There were bumps in the actual field which caused our pickup to touch the ground but our front two wheels did not. I am designing a suspension so this does not happen to us agian. We were using 4 Wheel Drive which is different but the idea is still the same. My design will be for mecanum.

548swimmer 09-05-2010 15:34

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kgzak (Post 961180)
I personally like the suspension even if we have a flat surface. Last year the field was flat but at nationals we kept having issues with one or two wheels not touching the ground because of our pick up mechanism which had to touch the ground. There were bumps in the actual field which caused our pickup to touch the ground but our front two wheels did not. I am designing a suspension so this does not happen to us agian. We were using 4 Wheel Drive which is different but the idea is still the same. My design will be for mecanum.

I'm not sure if you're interested, but what I did to solve the solution may be applicable to you guys too. Feel free to be inspired by it.

kgzak 09-05-2010 15:38

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 548swimmer (Post 961181)
I'm not sure if you're interested, but what I did to solve the solution may be applicable to you guys too. Feel free to be inspired by it.

Well I was going to have the motor move on the suspension as well but your idea might be better.

548swimmer 09-05-2010 15:44

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kgzak (Post 961182)
Well I was going to have the motor move on the suspension as well but your idea might be better.

I'm not sure with mecanums, cause you need one motor/wheel, and mine is designed for all of the wheels on one side to spin the same way.

kgzak 09-05-2010 15:50

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 548swimmer (Post 961183)
I'm not sure with mecanums, cause you need one motor/wheel, and mine is designed for all of the wheels on one side to spin the same way.

Yes but I could use the same concept. I would like to keep the motors stationary and that would make the suspension be able to be lighter.

EricH 09-05-2010 22:17

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 548swimmer (Post 961124)
Yeah, I realized that after I posted. How would these work in this situation? If they tension, how do you get them in? Do they allow for the variable chain lengths?

Note that they're rubber. You put them into the chain like a sprocket. If you're careful about it, you can arrange for them to be slightly compressed (which you couldn't do with a normal sprocket) when the suspension is at "neutral" position (where it would normally be while sitting there, and the longest distance/flattest chain). Then it would force the chain to "shorten" when it got the chance, like when the suspension moved.

Hawiian Cadder 09-05-2010 22:19

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
woah, if that only weighs 30 lbs then something is wrong, a cim in a 1-12 bane bots gear box weighs 12 lbs, there is no way 2 cims and the whole rest of that is under 6 lbs:ahh: :ahh:

548swimmer 09-05-2010 22:25

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawiian Cadder (Post 961268)
woah, if that only weighs 30 lbs then something is wrong, a cim in a 1-12 bane bots gear box weighs 12 lbs, there is no way 2 cims and the whole rest of that is under 6 lbs:ahh: :ahh:

I'll check my materials tomorrow. Thanks for catching that.

There is also a new post with the tensioning solution for you guys to look at.

Jack Jones 09-05-2010 23:30

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

I'm not sure how to power the omni's when they're in a suspension.
Lengthen the omni wheel swing arms and pivot them on the center drive axels. That way the distance between centers remains constant as the arms rotate. Use slot mounted dead axels on the omnis to tension the chains.

Confucius say: Man who think physics is religion must sit in own pew. ;)

548swimmer 09-05-2010 23:40

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jones (Post 961289)
Lengthen the omni wheel swing arms and pivot them on the center drive axels. That way the distance between centers remains constant as the arms rotate. Use slot mounted dead axels on the omnis to tension the chains.

Confucius say: Man who think physics is religion must sit in own pew. ;)

Physics explains more than Christianity, but let's not get into that.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/35715?

Already got the tensioning down. I prayed to the physics gods, and they answered!!

sdcantrell56 10-05-2010 00:26

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jones (Post 961289)
Lengthen the omni wheel swing arms and pivot them on the center drive axels. That way the distance between centers remains constant as the arms rotate. Use slot mounted dead axels on the omnis to tension the chains.

Confucius say: Man who think physics is religion must sit in own pew. ;)

Better yet, remove the suspension as it is a solution to a nonexistent problem and greatly complicates things as well as adds more points of failure. There is a lot to be said for simple well thought out designs. Look at any drivetrain from 254/968 for inspiration

548swimmer 10-05-2010 00:33

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/35715?

548swimmer 10-05-2010 00:34

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sdcantrell56 (Post 961300)
Better yet, remove the suspension as it is a solution to a nonexistent problem and greatly complicates things as well as adds more points of failure. There is a lot to be said for simple well thought out designs. Look at any drivetrain from 254/968 for inspiration

I got everything working smoothly in the latest version. Check it out.

548swimmer 10-05-2010 00:35

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jones (Post 961289)
Lengthen the omni wheel swing arms and pivot them on the center drive axels. That way the distance between centers remains constant as the arms rotate. Use slot mounted dead axels on the omnis to tension the chains.

Confucius say: Man who think physics is religion must sit in own pew. ;)

There is no good way for 2 arms to mount on one axle evenly though.

Jack Jones 10-05-2010 06:26

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 548swimmer (Post 961305)
There is no good way for 2 arms to mount on one axle evenly though.

If you say so.

548swimmer 10-05-2010 11:01

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jones (Post 961319)
If you say so.

I do not see a goo way to accomplish this. If you have any ideas as to how this would work, please let me know because I am eager to expand my knowledge.

EricH 10-05-2010 21:16

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
You could do a dovetail mount. It would take some machining, but it would probably work. Something like the image below (= is the axle).

__ __
=| ||=|| |=

548swimmer 10-05-2010 22:24

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 961478)
You could do a dovetail mount. It would take some machining, but it would probably work. Something like the image below (= is the axle).

__ __
=| ||=|| |=

I'm not sure how a dovetail mount would work here. Could you do a quick mock-up in mspaint or an equivalent? I also believe I solved he problem with v2.1. Thanks for the idea, I can't wait till I fully understand it!

EricH 10-05-2010 23:29

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
*curses at VB's not putting spaces in right*

If you've ever seen a dovetail joint, it should be fairly simple to figure out. Look at a standard door hinge; that's a fairly common dovetail application. Now replace the pin with an axle, and the screw plates with swing arms. You'd need to change the geometry and check the stresses, but that's pretty simple to do.

548swimmer 10-05-2010 23:45

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 961512)
*curses at VB's not putting spaces in right*

If you've ever seen a dovetail joint, it should be fairly simple to figure out. Look at a standard door hinge; that's a fairly common dovetail application. Now replace the pin with an axle, and the screw plates with swing arms. You'd need to change the geometry and check the stresses, but that's pretty simple to do.

Door hinges aren't dovetails, are they? I always thought dovetails looked like this:

/_\ or \_/-\_/-\_/ with the dashed part cutout and bottom line at the top

EricH 10-05-2010 23:48

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 548swimmer (Post 961516)
Door hinges aren't dovetails, are they? I always thought dovetails looked like this:

/_\ or \_/-\_/-\_/ with the dashed part cutout and bottom line at the top

It can go either way, straight or angled. I think the technical term for a straight dovetail is a mortise and tenon.

Either way, I was referring to the door hinge style.

548swimmer 10-05-2010 23:58

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 961517)
It can go either way, straight or angled. I think the technical term for a straight dovetail is a mortise and tenon.

Either way, I was referring to the door hinge style.

Alright, now I'm more confused...

So I would make a tenion joint between the carriage and the shaft? That doesn't make sense... Or between the carriage and the side plate?

I think a better graphic would help the most honestly, I don't want to place any extra work on you though, but if you could I'd love to see your way of fixing this problem.

EricH 11-05-2010 01:13

Re: pic: Prototype Drivetrain v2
 
Door hinge is still the best description I can come up with.

For modeling, take a door hinge and replace the plates with arms of the length you'd need. Replace the pin with the axle.

Note that some geometry would probably need to be changed to accommodate robot dimensions and stress.


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