Non-treaded wheels?
 

Annoyed after years of replacing treads that fall off, I've decided that there has to be a better way.

Does anyone know where I could find some "traction" wheels that do not have plaction-style treads? And that would also be easy to interface with AndyMark products(sprockets, etc..)

I've heard of colson wheels, but I also heard that they are not the easiest to use "out of the box"?

Preferrably non-pnuematic...
Thanks;)

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

http://www.andymark.biz/am-0420.html
You could try doubling, or even tripling these wheels together.

Maybe you should look at more effective ways of attaching the tread? The issue with getting a non-removable treaded wheel is that when the tread wears out the whole wheel is useless.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

We at AndyMark are working on a new tread-attachment method, using conveyor belt lacing hardware. Here is a sneak peek. Later this summer, this method will be in place for all AndyMark Plaction Wheels.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

I didn't mean non-removable exactly, I was pretty much referring to the am-KIT wheels,

I guess what I was wanting is a solid rubber type wheel like those but with stickier material?

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

Neither link seems to work. :(

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

If you throw out Colsons, I'd probably recommend some kind of polyurethane rubber wheel or something. Before FIRST I used to do a lot of tinkering with inline skate and scooter wheels, which had a lot of the same requirements as an FRC wheel with regards to shock loading, tread wear, traction, etc. They certainly would not work "out of the box", but you could probably get a company to install an aluminum core with a hex bore or a bolt pattern for you.

Not that I've used them on an FRC robot or anything, so no guarantees, but it's an idea I've wanted to try for a little while.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

Do you have access to any machining? I would try machining off the regular rubber tread, make a mold, and cast your own tread onto the plastic wheels. There are plenty of cheap rubber casting kits around. Try slotting (in cross-hatched patterns) or knurling the surface of the plastic wheel (with the tread gone) so that the cast-on tread gets a good, solid bite.

A buddy of mine in college made a great casting setup by machining the wheel's lug pattern into a plate, then boring out a two-part block (with the two halves already bolted together) to the tread diameter he wanted, then he bolted the blocks to the plate.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

Robot Market Place has several options. I have not used them, just pointing out they are there.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

An ancient FRC trick: Take a Skyway wheel (similar to the AM KOP wheels of the current day), grind or sand off most of the tread, then screw on belting that is similar to the AM belting strips. When you need to replace said belting, unscrew the screws and grab a fresh piece of tread.

It's not exactly common for this setup to fall off mid-match--if one end comes loose, you will notice pretty quickly.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

It's just like chain tensioning. If done correct the first time, you will not have any issues.

One of the main reasons that the tread has the ability to be taken on and off is reuse. You can reuse the wheels for as many competitions and years as you would like, just replace the tread.

Not so bad? These are shinny.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

Hmm, how well do those colson wheels work?
CoF?

Has anyone ever taken one of the kit wheels and cut a tread pattern into it?

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

Your treads fall off?

We've never had that problem and have been using belted wheels for 4 out of the last 5 years.

Are you using large head rivets?
Do you rivet too close to the end of the tread?

I'm curious what your failure method actually is.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

During build season we used 1/8th and 3/16th steel rivets, then during ship day and the FL regional the every single tread came off at least once, when one would fall off we would switch it out with a new tread and new rivets, the 3/16th rivets were large head.

The failure would happen when one of the ends would come loose then take the rest with it. Each end had two rivets, in between each spoke would also have two. Most of the time the rivets did not come out, the tread just tore a hole in the rubber around the rivet.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

This is odd. Do you use washers with your rivets?

We've never had tread really come off, just get so used that it was garbage. Our team also switched to blue nitrile tread and we haven't replaced the tread from our 2008 or 2010 robot. We have always used 1/8" aluminum Rivets.

I think the key is making sure to use rivets with washers so your rivet doesn't bore through the tread. Also making sure tread is cut to the correct length helps.

-RC

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

Might have also drilled the holes one size to large?

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

We have in the past. It works great until the edges of the pattern wear off, which happens fairly quickly.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

How much does the lacing protrude? Would there be any risk of violating, for example:--Ryan

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

True, I know that we did this for a couple of rivet holes and the rivets would just pop out freely.

-RC

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

I don't think so, but it's possible.
Finally after I had replaced all of them I put some 3M-2part epoxy on the ends of each, that held them for the remainder of the regional.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

I've seen a lot of teams rivet too much. Two rivets side by side in 1" is not necessary, we've gotten away with 1 rivet centered on the 1" face on each end. If you "cut" the tread too much with holes, it gets weak and wants to start to break apart at the hole.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

This sounds like the holes through the tread may have been too big. They need to be a very tight fit so you can barely get the rivet through it. The woven foundation of the conveyor belt tread is very tough and will not tear through if the hole is tight enough. And yes, large-head rivets are better. Our swerve drive put severe strain on our treads this year, but we have never had a single tread come loose when properly riveted.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

So how would these work with the "no metal on carpet" rule? Assuming that it stays that is.

ChrisH

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

The application process suggests that some of the tread is ground away so that the metal lacing does not stick above the tread. The lacing has smooth edges and does not help in gaining any traction. The sole purpose is to lace the ends of the tread together.

In my opinion, rule R08, is not a "no metal on carpet rule". I have heard that some inspectors call it as such, and they are incorrect (again, in my opinion). Rule R08 is there to not allow "traction devices" that are metal, to assist with gaining traction to a system.

In the little bit of area where these laces touch the ground, I predict that there is LESS traction than there would be if there was no lacing. These are smooth, rounded metal hardware items.

I hope this helps. If there are inspectors out there who believe that R08 is a "no metal on carpet" rule only, then maybe we need a whole 'nother thread to discuss this.

Andy B.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

And thus grounding wires are legal, but still, the tread is a traction device. Couldn't the laces be considered a surface feature of, or an attachment on, the tread?

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

My team screws the conveyor belting from McMaster onto the AM KOP wheels. We have found this to be a relatively cheap and simple alternative to plaction wheels.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

Well, it sort of is: "Traction devices shall not have surface features such as metal, sandpaper, hard plastic studs, cleats, or other attachments."

On the other hand, the rule is clumsily written on several levels (e.g. "shall not" isn't necessarily an imperative), it hasn't been (uniformly) enforced that way for practical reasons, and there's no point in phrasing it that way (because metal isn't inherently unsuitable for use on carpet).

That's one rule I'd especially like to have a kick at fixing, because it's been an annoyance for several years.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

I agree, it definitely needs to be fixed.

The intent of this rule, if I understand it correctly, is to not allow metal treads, as on TechnoKats and Wildstang robots in 2002. Also, it is aimed at not allowing file cards, which were also made famous by Team Hammond in 2002, and then copied by many teams that same year.

Maybe this rule can be scrutinized to death so that no metal can ever touch the carpet, but I seriously think that is not the intent. As a member of one of the teams listed above who had something on their robot which resulted in this rule, I would hope to understand the intent.

What surprises me is that well-meaning people look at this rule and automatically think that it's a "no metal on carpet rule".

I will start a new thread. Sorry for hi-jacking this one.

Andy

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

have you ever tried skyway wheels
you can get them here
http://skywaywheels.com/products_002.htm
:D

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

I actually like the current set up quite a bit.

Why?

Because I'm able to remove the rivets, then yank the tread out without removing the wheels to split them apart (our wheels were captured on both sides this year).

While the conveyor alligator clips would certainly work, I'd like it even better if it was a small metal detail screwed into the wheel with 2 screws that had teeth on either side that pinch it against the plastic.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

We have also used plaction wheels, but after replacing the treads multiple times we drilled a couple of holes and riveted it. (Along with some contact cement) it works like a charm, treads never fell off again.

Re: Non-treaded wheels?
 

This is odd. It does sound like possibly too many rivets (as others have said). If you're talking about plaction wheels, we started out just pre-stapleing the ends together and slipping them over the disassembled wheels. These preformed just fine (no detrimental slipping or anything), but to avoid complete disassembly we started using a 4 screw method. Shown here, we've yet to have any problems with them. Might be worth a try. If you decide to and still have problems, feel free to drop me a PM. There might be a deeper issue here (though I have no idea what as of yet).