Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

MathWorks is developing a Simulink/MATLAB library to program FRC robots. This library is based on the WPILib C++ library, and allows teams to create and test robot control algorithms in an interactive graphical environment using block diagrams and state charts. We are currently looking for FRC teams that would be interested in beta-testing the library and giving us feedback. Eligible teams will get licenses for relevant MathWorks products at no charge.

In order to be eligible, an FRC team should:
1) Have prior experience with WPILib (either the C++ or Java interface).
2) Have access to the NI cRIO hardware and WindRiver Workbench software; more generally, you need to have all the software and tools necessary for using WPILib, along with a Windows XP system.
3) Have a mentor who has some experience with Simulink or Stateflow. This is not a strict requirement, but keep in mind that since the library is a beta version, there may be gaps in the functionality and documentation.

Beta-testing includes: Downloading and installing the necessary MathWorks products, developing Simulink models to control the robot, downloading compiled code to the NI CompactRIO, and evaluating the ease-of-use of the entire process.

If you are interested, contact Gautam Vallabha (gautam.vallabha@mathworks.com, 508-547-2008) or myself before July 30, 2010. We plan to have the beta version ready for distribution in late July.

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

does this involve proprietary and evil software?

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

MATLAB and Simulink are both created by The Mathworks, and are proprietary, but I wouldn't call them evil. MATLAB is one of my five favorite languages, and my go-to for simulation / optimization problems. Anyone in school for physics or engineering will likely learn MATLAB.

I'm not as big of a fan of Simulink (I really prefer LabVIEW's data flow model), but this is pretty exciting. I'm always happy to see new options, and The Mathworks does a really amazing job with just about everything I've used from them.

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

proprietary != evil.

Just because everything made by a company with an apple for a logo happens to be both proprietary and evil, does not mean everything that is proprietary is evil.

Sometimes proprietary software is actually good.

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

That's VERY cool. To me, Simulink is much easier to use than LabVIEW - too bad we don't have WPILib experience or we'd jump right in!

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

I consider every single byte of software that is not open source || proprietary as evil

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

Then start your own thread in chit chat to discuss that. This is not the place.

Matlab is one of those pieces of software I wish I knew better. I hope your beta test goes well.

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

Okay, so a few questions:

1.Is this going to be an option on the table for next year's competition? If so, will it replace labview, or just be another option?. If not, when are you looking at introducing it?

2.Is this purely a third-party product, or will it be part of the "official" FIRST software, like Java, C++, and labview are now?

3.Will this be able to compile code or use native libraries for processing-intesnsive operations(like java does now)? Or will we be limited to just the interpreted MATLAB/simulink code?

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

To answer your questions,

1. Yes, we are planning on having a version of the Simulink FRC Library ready for the 2011 season. It is not a replacement for LabVIEW; rather, it is an alternative graphical environment for designing robot control algorithms and generating code for them. The graphical notation can include state diagrams as well as signal flow diagrams, and is especially well suited for simulation and testing.

2. For the 2011 season, the Simulink FRC Library will be a third party product, available to any team who requests it from us. It will not be part of the official FIRST FRC kit for 2011.

3. The Simulink FRC Library can be used in two ways. (a) you can run the Simulink model (on your host computer) to simulate and test your algorithm. (b) you can generate C++ code from it which will be compiled, linked with the WPILib and native libraries, and downloaded to the NI CompactRIO. There is no interpreter or virtual machine involved; the generated code is straight C++ code that you can read and modify if you wish (though typically this would not be necessary). You can incorporate custom C++ code as well.

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

Last time I looked at Simulink C code generation (admittedly probably 20-odd years ago) it used double-precision floats for booleans. Has the code generator now been optimized for realtime embedded controllers?

~

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

Ether -

It sounds like it implemented political booleans, rather than engineering booleans: True, False, and nearly 2^64 shades of grey including whiter than white and blacker than black.

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

Greetings,

I would like to participate in the MATLAB/Simulink/Stateflow SW evaluation. Have used the SW as a university professor as well as in industry. Currently using the SW for embedded control of vehicle powertrain controls, conventional and hybrid applications for Chrysler.

Thanks

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

Aha. An intrinsic datatype to support fuzzy logic. :-)


~

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

Yes, it has been optimized. Real Time Workshop supports virtually all of the data types you need, whether they are floating point, fixed point, or boolean. Many current controls companies (like the one I work for) put auto-generated code from Simulink into production controllers. My previous company first put it into production in 2004, with good results.

As a side note, for the first three years of autonomous (2003-2005) my teams used Simulink to do all of our autonomous control. We auto-generated the code using TargetLink (a third party product from dSPACE). The microcontroller we used wasn't particularly powerful so we did it all in 16-bit fixed point types (with a few 32-bit calculations where we needed the extra accuracy). We even had Stateflow going to do the big-picture sequencing. That's when I first got the basic robot simulator going to test and debug the autonomous code. It really helped finding out where we had precision problems in the fixed point calculations.

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

Just curious: what kind of calculations did you have to make for which 16 bits of precision was not adequate?

~

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

What are the chances that we could get autogenerated Java code too? Not that it would be that hard to turn the autogenerated C++ into Java, but I'm greedy :) If necessary, I might be able to devote some time towards developing/testing Simulink->Java functionality.

I am a C/C++ guy myself first and foremost, but our team is committed to Java since that is where the bulk of our students' knowledge lies.

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

I don't remember - that was quite a while ago.

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

Like Chris Hibner's team, 599 has used simulation to model robot dynamics for complex functions like auto traction control, auto steering , pneumatic system dynamics and autonomous control logic. Although I use Simulink occasionally as a mentor, the kids haven't had the tools available to them. I think this would be a good start to motivating them.

I would really jump on this if Mathworks included the Virtual 3D modeling capability in the library. To me this is the main element missing in autonomous check out. There are many programs that can do this, by it is not worth the expense and training time to use them. If a simple virtual robot library that just used kinematics generated by SIMULINK (no force interactions) could be added it would go a long way to help visualizing robot behavior...ie , the next best thing to actual implementation. Perhaps later, boundary constraints could be added.

I think this is where Mathworks could buy into FIRST like NI to get their product introduced to kids earlier. I don't know if NI has this on their plate.

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

I don't want to crash this thread to talk about NI stuff, but it would be interesting to hear what sorts of simulation and control features would be most useful. Perhaps if you want to start a new thread to collect feature ideas...

Greg McKaskle

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

How much are we talking for this?

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

The initial version of the Simulink FRC library will not include Java code generation (It is our expectation that although you can look at and edit the generated code, most teams will not have to or want to). However, we welcome any attempts to extend the library; if you are interested in pursuing the idea of Simulink -> Java code generation for FRC, please contact gautam.vallabha@mathworks.com

The Simulink FRC Library (and any required MathWorks products) will be freely available for any FRC teams that request it from us.

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

Matlab and Simulink and everything else they mentioned is probably on the order of $10,000. That's a great donation!

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

Teams that are beta-testing the FRC Library for Simulink (and eventually, any FRC team that uses the library) will get access to a standard bundle of MathWorks products. This bundle includes Simulink 3D Animation (the virtual 3d environment). It does not come with 3D modeling components for FRC robots; however, you can build and view custom VRML worlds, or import VRML worlds built in some other application.

One problem with creating a virtual robot library is the sheer variety of FRC robot designs; also, how would the kinematics be calculated? I know some teams have looked at SimMechanics and SimDriveline. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on whether these products would be relevant/useful for your team.

Thanks,
Gautam

Gautam Vallabha
MathWorks

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

I would like to learn more about the FRC Library testing for Simulink. Are these libraries available right now? If not, when will they be available? Where are they going to be posted?

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

We are still developing the library. It is "available" in the sense that we are inviting teams to help us with beta-testing it. Once the beta-test is done, the goal is to have it ready by early fall, and we will probably announce it on these forums along with procedures for how FRC teams can get the library & related MathWorks products.

Feel free to send me an email if you have any questions.

Best regards,
Gautam

Gautam Vallabha
MathWorks

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

That's VERY cool. To me, Simulink is much easier to use than LabVIEW - too bad we don't have WPILib experience or we'd jump right in!

Re: Beta-Testers for new Simulink FRC Blockset Wanted
 

Great to hear.

I think a simple 4 wheel or 6 wheel robot that just integrates wheel speeds to get movement would suffice to test basic maneuvering scripts. Many of the engineering mentors can build the necessary dynamic models and make them available to others. Eventually, more complicated models with 3D modeling components could be added. Simple arms with a few joints can be easily modeled but ball harvesters etc would be problematic.



It would nice to have the forces modeled , especially wheel friction and dynamic loading but I think adding another modeling language would be a burden for most teams. However, if these programs were available, some clever teams could develop the dynamics of a basic 6 wheel robot and generate the simulink code from it for others to use on a parametric basis.