To go to Championships...or not....
 

so the dates have been released for Championships.... April 27-30 i believe.

Which happens to be the weekend before AP tests. 100% of our students take AP exams. A few take about 7 each year. Our mentors have finals that Monday. So....the idea has been thrown around in our group to attend 3 regionals without the intent to attend championships.

I was just curious on what peoples thoughts on that was? Are any other teams in the same situation?

And this is only thoughts, not saying this is our plan.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Well, from one GA Team to another, in the past, I would've jumped on the chance to go to nationals. In next year's case, nationals aren't exactly in our backyard, and a trip to St. Louis would meaning coming back Saturday afternoon at the latest. Which, in this case, means a day of rest before students began the exam sessions.

But there is no doubt that the splendor of championships is beyond that of any regional, and it'll be interesting to see if FIRST does something new in St. Louis.

With this said, our school takes AP testing very seriously, so I'm wondering if our school would even let our students go to nationals on these dates...

I would recommend if you are able to, and your students/their parents have no issues, then go for it. Try and get some studying done on the bus/plane. Implement a study session in the afternoon.

- Sunny

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

This is a big big red flag for me.

Jane

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Studying early is just a matter of being disciplined. If success on a test hinges on studying the material in the one or two days/nights just before the exam, then you haven't mastered the material. That doesn't mean that no one "survives" academically by cramming before exams; but it does mean that studying right before a test is not required.

Returning rested might mean missing out on enough of the fun to make the trip a poor choice, or might not.

Perhaps folks only travel if they do well on a practice exam (or in study hall sessions?) taken shortly before the trip?

Blake

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

You have a week between the Championship and the very first AP exam. I honestly don't think anyone needs to cram for tests for that long. If APs were the very next week, I would say no. but they'll have at least 8 days for the close - to - test intensive review. If they need more than 8 days, I have trouble believing they paid attention at all in class.

IMO 3 regionals is actually more detrimental to academic success, since unless you go 1-3-5 or 2-4-6 you will be doing back to back at least once.

Mentors having finals on Monday? That's rather different, and those are actual college classes. No way should they go.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

the Exam starts May 2, the Monday after Championships.......:ahh:

And yes, we will be having a meeting with the team parents, mentors, teachers, and school representatives to discuss if we can go.

Jane: Yea.....im 99.99% sure i wont be albe to attend. WAY too much at stake. Though i may be able to change my finals schedual. The dean of my school happens to love FIRST and be very involved. but even then.....professors dont like it when you are the ONLY one they have to make another exam for...

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

May be a week after the CMP (I am not sure aqbout the date) I will have my final exam in computer science that is one of the most important for me
hard decision!

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

SEVEN AP exams by one student? That just sounds excessive. I know this isn't a debate about the merits of AP tests, but how is it even possible for a student taking 7 AP exams (I assume that is probably more like 3-4 AP courses, with 3-4 exams being taken independently) to make a meaningful contribution to an extracurricular activity?

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

You'd be surprised. We've had kids who have done things like this and have been the backbones of either programming or mechanical.

Also, I don't know many people who study more than a few days for AP tests, especially if they put in the effort during the course of the year. Your kids should be fine.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

I have a tough time sympathizing, what I'm hearing is you and your students have the foresight 9 months ahead of time to identify the issue. Why not just prepare ahead of time.

I took a good deal of APs in high school, it wasn't very difficult to prepare ahead of time; AP classes/tests aren't nearly as hard as people make them out to be (or useful as they're said to be for that matter).

Let the kids make an adult decision, they're adult enough to take more than a full course-load of college classes after all.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

I have Bagrut tests (The ticket to the university in Israel):
Math
Phisycs
Computer Science
Hebrew
Citizenship
English
History

FIRST gets you out of school for 3-5 months, it is hard to study when FIRST is on your mind, but I will pass it.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

While that would be ideal (for students to make their own decisions), that really isn't going to happen.

As for seven APs-one girl on our team will be taking AP Bio, Euro, both Englishes, BC Calc, and if she decides to, Environmental Science. All of these would be prepped by a class except for Environmental Science. She's also part of the leadership, as well as a coxswain on the crew team. So yes, it is possible, and she does contribute a lot to her extracurriculars by prepping a lot during the summer.

The problem is not that we need the time to cram. It would mostly be to alleviate nervousness and rest up before the tests. To balance that goal with the stress and time that Championships takes up? I don't totally know how we would manage that. St. Louis is at least a ten-hour drive from Atlanta, and even if we fly, which would probably be more expensive, we'd still be tired.

And that's just pre-college exams. Our mentors' exams are for graduating college, and in one case, heading off to med school. So-pretty important stuff.

What is everyone else thinking about tests and championships? I know some people said they have standardized tests that weekend that would have to be made up?

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

That's why I said let the kids make an adult decision; the team goes, and if a kid can't handle doing both, he will have to choose one or the other (I would assume that means the student chooses to miss champs).

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

My concern is not the study time, it is the rest time. If you are traveling and don't get back home until late Saturday or Sunday morning (or even Sunday afternoon or evening) it will be hard to get your rest schedule back on track by Monday morning. I think that Chemistry, Enviro, Comp Sci and Spanish would be the most affected. Those are the Monday and Tuesday exams. I am sure that if we qualify for the Championships we will have to discuss this issue, as I am sure other teams will. Thanks for bringing it up.

Then again, as a personal matter this is an easier weekend for me, since it does not fall on the weekend of our big home track meet, which is also by far our biggest fund raiser for the track team. It is in the middle of the quarter for Ohio State, so it shouldn't be a problem for our mentors.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

I think if a student is taking AP classes because they chose to get a deeper education (rather than being prodded into looking good for colleges) they would be fine going to the Championship barring a Monday exam. For me personally, RPI pushed its exams back so I have a good 2 week window. I will go if 2791 goes, and if not I'll probably end up at Vex.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Actual debate on one of my college teams: For competition, do we go to Texas for finals, or California for spring break (lots of profs like to give tests right before spring break, especially during our 2-day travel window)?

Knowing that there is a conflict coming up, or a potential conflict coming up, means that plans can be made to mitigate the damage, if any, that that would cause. Even if your team is one of those teams that will only go to the Championship if they qualify, you should discuss this now.

Why now and not when (if) you qualify? Let's assume that you do not qualify first. You've had a discussion about what you want to do in the case of qualifying, which covers topics like time management and studying ahead--not a bad discussion to have anyway. Now, let's assume that you do qualify. Instead of trying to figure out who can and can't go due to tests and what-have-you in the 3 days you get, you know that, say, 5 students won't be able to go, 10 students will definitely be able to go, and 4 students are questionable right from the get-go, and can plan accordingly.

My personal opinion is that if you think it's not a good idea for your team for whatever reason, don't do it. Lack of studying for finals and APs would probably qualify as a good reason not to go to the Championship.

Bonus idea: Don't go to a third competition at all, and save the money for a) a second robot to practice with, b) postseason events, c) next year's registration, d) next year's championship, e) seed money for a big fundraiser (assuming that the school district or sponsoring organization will allow you to save the money, of course).

Now, about that dilemma I opened with: The decision the Aero Design team (who had that question) reached was CA for spring break, partly because we didn't want to have to make up finals, and partly because the weather would probably be better (and partly because we'd be on spring break as soon as we got done with the competition). Note that mid-semester tests are a little bit easier to make up than finals at SDSM&T, so that played a little bit of a role.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

:confused: Check the dates. VEX World Championships are on the same weekend. :-(

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Our team constantly battles championships and exams, but more so on the college level. The last 5 years the championships have fallen either on the week of final exams, or the week before final exams. Obviously this is tough on the mentors because they either need to make up the exam, or study in a very short amount of time.

However, I can't recall a single mentor in the past 5 years who didn't go to the Championship because of finals, and as far as I know everyone did okay on their exams.

It's been said here, but I'd like to reiterate. Particularly in AP classes, you are learning for an entire year for one test. Most likely you've taken countless practice exams in addition to the usual class work that needs to be completed. Hopefully your hard work over the course of the year has allowed you to approach the days leading to the AP exam with a sense of confidence and relaxedness. However, attending or not attending championships is something that is completely up to you and your team. What works for one team, may not work for another.

-Brando

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

As a mentor I attended a regional the weekend before I took the FE exam (IIRC) and I found it very nice to focus on something else for a bit. It should just be an incentive to get your studying done early, because no one crams for exams anyway :D

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

For the past three years, the date of Battlecry@WPI has been around the time of AP exams (either the weekend before or between AP exam weeks, I believe). It's a great event and my team loved attending it when these events did not conflict, but we decided it was not feasible for our team to attend on the years it did conflict. Maybe it's not quite the same as the Championship, but don't feel that you need to go to the Championship if it's going to put undue stress on your students and/or your mentors. Their academic habits and successes are important to their futures.

While the AP exams are a big deal, the thing that worries me even more is that the mentors also have their college final exams. (I'm also shocked that they're the first week of May- ours are always the third or fourth week of May.) Between robotics and math team competitions, I missed a lot of school in high school during the spring, but it was no big deal. I was a motivated student and I stayed on top of the work fairly easily. College is a different story- I work even harder, but missing even one day of classes can be detrimental to understanding the material in that class, and professors are not as easy going about making work up. (Example: Last fall I missed one day of a lab class while representing MIT at the SWE National Conference, and my professor refused to let me make up the work because I "was not taking school seriously by putting my extracurriculars first". (Side note: I disagree with her about this; I think in the long run my interactions that day with women practicing engineering will be more valuable than the four hours I would have spent in that lab class.)) Maybe not everyone is like me; maybe your mentors are superheros at succeeding in their college courses and have no problem missing classes, or maybe their professors are more lenient in allowing make-up work or rescheduling exams. Still, I think missing two or three days of classes the week before your final exams is nothing to laugh at. The Championship is great, and I really wish I could have been there for the past two years, but I know I made the right decision for me by going to class and watching the webcast on Friday afternoon and Saturday after class. You have to make the right decision for your whole team, with the input of your whole team. Maybe you can do it this year, maybe you can't.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

For the college students - Sometimes (and I stress "sometimes") the professors will be willing to give you an exam on a different day given large enough notice. Since you know the dates of Championships already, speak with them the first day of class to see what your options are.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

I heartily agree with this. If you talk to your professors early, you have a much better chance of getting things to come out the way you want them to. This is good advice for high school kids too. Everyone appreciates advance notice. Lisa is correct as well that some professors will not care that you asked early, and you may have to bend to their will.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

IB students, heads up: IB exams also start that Monday (May 2nd).

As my psych teacher said this year at our IB review session: If you don't know it by now it doesn't matter anyways.

Yes, rest and studying are important, but if you didn't know it the weekend before the test anyways...

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Speaking from my own experience:

I have been in the IB Diploma program for the last two years. At the end of the second year in the program, students are required to test in their six subjects – each subject has a minimum of two “papers” or exams, and can have as many as three papers. These exams take place throughout the entire month of May (I seated 15 papers totaling 24.5 hours of testing/writing).

This last year, my team attended two regionals and CMP. During the entire build and competition seasons I found myself thoroughly involved with FIRST (I was my team’s captain), as well as thoroughly involved studying. Managing my time was a struggle; but in the end I was able to manage it (unfortunately, the combination of the two caused me to lose a LOT of sleep).

I will be the first to admit that IB, FIRST and sleep do not go hand-in-hand as far as time management is concerned. Although I had two weeks in between CMP and my first exam, I was able to prepare myself sufficiently throughout the school year to take my exams and score well on all of my exams. It is a stretch for students to take on higher-level curricula (such as AP and IB) and be heavily involved with FIRST and manage to perform well on their exams. Ultimately, it is the students’ decision to find the time to prepare adequately for their exams – if this means that they can’t attend CMP, so be it. Ultimately, the final answer should come from the students’ parents/legal guardians as to whether they feel comfortable with their child(ren) going off to something such as CMP, or even a regional, knowing that the students also need to be prepared for their exams.

IMHO: although FIRST is a great program, it should not come before a student’s academic achievements; but rather, it should prove to foster their desire to learn and achieve more.

In the end, what your team decides to do is not for us to decide. If students are able to prepare properly for their exams and attend CMP, that’s great; if they can’t, it’s not the end of the world. I will admit, though, that it does not seem wise for any mentors with finals which clash with CMP to attend CMP.

-Rob.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Yeah, IB is the bigger concern on our team. Remember that if APs are the only/main tests that your school offers, that CollegeBoard offers late APs (as well as "Outstanding" aka late late APs) for conflicts. A discussion well ahead of time with CollegeBoard may help alleviate some of the conflicts with the championship.

As for IB, I really don't have any idea. With APs and IBs, 2nd year IB students are averaging 10 exams a year, and they're hitting the Outstanding APs even without FIRST events...

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

I've always been able to take exams early if I've needed to. Never later, but I must admit it was very nice to get the exams over and done with to enjoy whatever I was going to (usually an FSAE event).

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

I've always been able to reschedule exams if needed, given a school-sponsored activity. It's really easy if you have 2 or 3 people who need to take the same exam at a different time than everybody else--I've had that a few times for Aero Design. Sometimes it'll be early and sometimes late, depending on professor. It'll almost always be a different exam, though.

Non-school-sponsored activities, though, are not as easy to work around.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

With IB there is no option to take the test on another date. Its a now-or-never deal.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Tips for taking an exam:

• If it's open-book, spend an hour to get organized: know where to find information.
• If it's closed-book, memorize for it starting an hour ahead of time.
• If it's math or science based, there isn't much you can do if you don't already understand the concepts already. Hence, memorizing the nuances is your best bet. Don't spend more than an hour on it.
• Focus when studying; do not get distracted. A great pair of noise canceling headphones may help. Bose headphones & Pandora are my personal secret to doing my best work in short amounts of time.
• Take the exam on an empty (but settled) stomach.
• Bring small amounts of sugar as brain food and healthy snacks for in between exams.
• If a student honestly expects to pass any of 7 consecutive AP exams in addition to being apart of a robotics team, why do we even question the ability to study? Let the overachievers achieve in their own way. Maybe they're destined for greatness, or maybe they're destined to suddenly realize their limitations.

Ergo, the team should attend the championships. The effects last longer and are further reaching than worrying about an exam. In the absence of extenuating circumstances, even a [bachelor's level*] college exam that takes more than a few hours to prepare for is an exam for a class the student should fail due to lack of understanding. FIRST should not count as an extenuating circumstance.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

This is an important point. Many high achieving students, skating by without studying a day in their life, will hit a brick wall when the material is finally hard enough to catch up with them. This has happened to so many people I know in college. If you think a student is careening toward that brick wall in high school, I would recommend that someone "talk some sense into them" to avoid being a victim of their own perfectionism, rather than assuming that because they are intelligent enough to get away with it before that they don't need your help. This may be a key situation to seriously consider disallowing or strongly discouraging a student from attending the Championship.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

... That is with the exception of: a war in your respective testing region (country/city etc); a natural disaster (earthquake/hurricane/tornado etc); or if you're in an unstable health condition (ie. you're in the ER because you got run over by a car on the way to your exam) ...
You can't be late to an exam, either, as IB has strict policies regarding when you may begin the testing process - to within a 30-ish minute long period of time (all exams are taken on the same exact day at the same regional time all over the world, so IB is very particular about when an exam may start in a given te zone)

As far as students' abilities to sit multiple higher-level high school exams and attend CMP: if a student is committed to their studies throughout the course of the entire year, then I should think they'd be capable of attending an event such as CMP without suffering any adverse issues taking their exams (with maybe the issue of falling asleep during the exam - I was exhausted after I got back...)
EricH brought up the point of seeing how many students would be able to go to a competition given that exams are so close... I mentioned to my parents yesterday about how close CMP is to exams for he 2011 season and they told me that if I were to have had my exams so soon after a competition they would not allow me to attend. If there are not enough students allowed to attend the competition based upon the pretext that exams are so close (or any other reason), it would seem sensible to decide not to attend CMP... If not enough students can go to participate as a competing team, then it's not worth doing... That doesn't mean, however, that a small group could not attend just for the experience and for the conference.
-Rob.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

The exams that need to be done during the week of May 2nd are:
For everyone's information

Monday: AM Chemistry AND Environmental Science
(if you have both you can reschedule one or the other....)

PM Psychology

Tuesday: AM Computer Science A AND Spanish (see above)

PM Art History

Wednesday AM Calculus AB and BC

PM Chinese

Thursday AM English Lit and Composition

PM Japanese AND Latin

Friday AM German AND US History

PM European History and Studio Art

Note: Early testing or testing at times other than those published by the College Board are not permitted under any circumstances.
Coordinators should order late-testing exams for students who would like to take exams that are scheduled for the same time.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Other considerations:

1. How will jet lag affect you? Coming from CA, our team had its sleep schedule turned upside down, and wasn't acclimated to either time zone. Result: insomnia & exhaustion for several test takers, resulting in poor scores. (Pro tip: disallow texting near the "edges of the night", as it does weird things to both the texters but and their roomies.)

2. If part of the team attends, how will that will the missing pieces affect the rest of the team? One year, our head programmer, head mechanical person, and head driver couldn't attend. Even though the team had the numbers to "be a team", the absence of key personnel tipped the scales so that even those students who had planned to go eventually decided not to.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Other considerations...

If you don't go to the Championship Event, the terrorists win.

.:p

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

We had an interesting discussion about this at our the executive mentor group last night. We basically came to the conclusion that this is a decision best left up to the student and his family.

Being an AP teacher myself AND the coach of the team... I can see a variety of issues here. I understand that college finals can be an issue but in the end, as much as I enjoy having college mentors around, I am reminded that this is a high school program and that is what this dilemma should be focused on.

College finals and other activities have always been an issue with FIRST in regionals and in finals.

For the high school student it is easy for me to cop out and say
"If you don't know it by now you won't learn it in the last 2-3 days"
I am not sure that for some finals that this is a correct statement.

I teach both AP Physics and AP Environmental Science and these tests are dominated by ideas and the application of them... more so in physics and APES....

For classes that have much to be memorized... for instance AP History...
I can see this being an issue... a last minute cram session might add a few points.... I am not really sure about this... although in the scheme of everything a late night cram session is ONLY good for the test... it will never really add to your learning...

Learning takes time... and has to be nurtured over weeks and weeks of lecture, projects, labs, papers, study and reading....
This is what I am really after... as a teacher...

So the idea that the last few days are critical for the test really doesn't hold much water for me... although some study sessions are certainly valuable for the test.

So I see the real issue here... the exhaustion that always comes with the Championships.... I do think that this is really just an issue for tests taken on the first day.... or perhaps the first two days.... depending on when you get back...

I believe that on our team I will be discussing this issue with students and parents....

My own opinion is that perhaps a student could go to the Championships and leave on Saturday night and then be rested enough to be able to do well on a Monday test with a full Sunday to rest...

Another option might be to go for just Wed-Friday and take an early flight back home...

Being an AP Environmental Science teacher... I do suggest something else..a partial solution...
I will volunteer to lead a study session for the APES test for anyone that wants to attend...AT the championships.... it might be fun.... it could certainly be interesting....

Maybe we could find an AP Chem teacher and an AP Psychology teacher to do something similar....
If we could perhaps find a room at the championships to do this... I think it might, at least. be a partial solution to all those seniors out their that have been waiting to go to Championships their entire FIRST career....

Anyone interested in this?
I am thinking about 90 minutes somewhere.... student discussions... study groups.... lecture.... whatever we want....

????

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

The AP world and US History tests are surprisingly pretty easy when you pay attention in class. Most of the subject matter deals with common ideals and topics during certain time periods, so the tests leave much for the student to infer and answer appropriately. To be honest, I did only pay attention in AP World but did not study and received a 4 (for my standards that is good enough).

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

If it's just one student, you're probably OK. If it's a large group, make sure it's the latest possible flight out--you never know when something unexpected (like, you know, winning the Championship) will come up. Or get the earliest possible flight on Sunday (short sleep Saturday night + airplane sleep + resting on Sunday).

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Or go to IRI instead.

Shorter speeches, better entertainment, and tougher competition. An all around great value. :D

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Don't forget you have to qualify first :P

I say this mostly because a small portion of my team has wanted to do this for awhile. We have to remind them that we need to prove ourselves to get there, unlike the real Championship.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Isn't AP Government usually on Monday morning?

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

As a student who does take what some consider to be "excessive" amounts of AP tests, this doesn't strike me as a problem. Any student taking that many AP tests is either highly motivated and should do well regardless based on hard work and paying attention in class throughout the year, or else that student simply doesn't belong in that many AP classes and should scale it back quite a bit. I did exceptionally well on all 4 of my APs this year while making widespread contributions as a leader on my team. Simply put, "Where there is a will, there is a way." And given the choice, I would not miss the championship experience for the world.

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US Gov is the 2nd week on Tuesday morning....Comp Gov same day afternoon


Here is the info on Government from AP 2011

Tuesday,May 10 AM United States Government and Politics

PM Comparative Government and Politics

The other data is from the AP Exam date list from College Board website

http://professionals.collegeboard.co...ates/next-year

:)

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

I'm a little surprised that the whole team hasn't been looked at during this discussion:
- the college mentors
- the high school students
- the parents who may or may not support the team but will also be stressing because of the pressures/decisions met with added pressures for their children and for the team.

If everyone is carrying the weight of stress/pressure due to the academic schedule - magnified by the competition and travel involved at Championship level - that could make for an intense season before even attending Kick Off. If not carefully monitored and planned, setting very clear priorities that support the health and safety of the team and its individuals, it could become the straw that broke the camel's back. My question would be - why go through that, compromising the tests and the team's competitive edge?

Just some thoughts.

Jane

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

I've shown this topic to my team, and I have been thinking about it for a while. Finally, here are my two cents:

I only took one exam this year, APUSH. Studying for that was without a doubt one of the most stressful experiences for me ever, partially due to what I was juggling along with it. Now, I have a lot of trouble focusing when studying, and I know not every kid needs to study like I do. But I know for me, just to get that four took hours upon days to do.

Preparing for Championships was probably the other high stress point for me this year. We were preparing our first every CCA presentation, getting travel logistics done, finishing some last minute touches on our robot, scouting, you name it, there was an issue. Don't get me wrong, it is always the most fun I have throughout the entire year, but a lot goes into it.

I've thought about what I would have to do this year when it comes to putting these together, and to be honest I'm having trouble simply picturing it. I'm taking two classes and maybe three exams this year, a lot more than last year. Moreover, since Championships are in a different location this year, a lot of the more standard travel procedures our team has down will have to be relooked at, adding more pressure for that. This is just what's on my mind before we even know what the bloody game is.

I'm guilty of having the world's worst study habits, but even I am uneasy about missing study time. I love Champs more than anything else in the world, anything. But whether or not I would go personally...I really will be thinking about it, and I'm probably going to be coach next year.

Students, please don't take this lightly. I know I sound like a parent here, but I'm worried. What would be nice is if FIRST gave some more information about why they did this. I mean, they had to know about this.

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So I just remembered I actually did take an AP class once... :eek: Just one class I couldn't just take at my local college.

Anyway, I don't really get why people hype the AP tests as something particularly petrifying or something that you need to spend months and months obsessing over. They're basically a final exam but you know exactly what material can be on it due to the regulated curriculum. By no means am I saying "oh just don't worry about it it's no big deal" but really, if you do well in school, you're doing well on AP. A college course it is not, despite the intent of the program.

I have always felt the AP's test-centric studying routines and general culture promoted an anti-educational method of class taking that doesn't serve you well at all in the future. Having your life, education, and knowledge revolve around a big folded piece of paper that determines whether or not you'll get to skip a class at college, maybe, is taking an AP for the wrong reasons. If you spent the year actually learning material, you'll do fine.

And on that note, I think any student mature enough to actually learn the material of a class is mature enough to make their own decisions, and doesn't need a warning from me or anyone else on the internet about what should be completely obvious to them. Similarly, the people that don't get it and cram at the end are the people that will ignore anything I suggest to them anyway.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Kelsey,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but many of the things you listed are logistical items that can and should be delegated by a student if he or she feels the need to study more. In fact, things like travel, in my opinion, should be handled more by parents/advisors/coaches anyway. Students generally don't need that kind of load on their shoulders on top of AP classes. If you are doing something critically important on the team instead of preparing for an AP exam that you know you need to prepare for, or even cutting study time in half in order to work on both, then you must reassess your priorities and focus on school. Delegate your work to students, and especially mentors who are there to help you, who don't have other academic burdens. Your career right now is considered "student," robotics is simply an "activity." Career > Activity/Hobby. For those students who take FIRST way too seriously, they may sometimes let it interfere with being a student first, something that I personally really frown upon. Take FRC and FIRST a little less seriously, its just a game. A lot of kids find their niche in FRC and become very attached to it, but sometimes some of these students really need a reality adjustment and a reminder that currently, their priority in life should really be grades, GPA's, friends, and family. There's always time later on for passions like FRC.

Again, I'm one of the people that does not find difficulty in choosing priorities, if need be. But it does have to be said that if you do know that you need to study, then simply delegate your role on the team and let your mentors know that you will need help or a break from the team during exam week and the week prior.

+$0.02 Just one insomniac's opinion.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

If you're smart enough to really place out of a college class, the AP exam will be a breeze, and, even if you could get a 4 or 5 on an AP exam, you'll still want to take the classes again in college to get an easy A and to reinforce your academic fundamentals.

Also...

FIRST championships are usually a once- or twice-in-a-lifetime event for most students, and if your team has the ability to go, you should. School is important, but it's just an AP exam, and it should not prevent your team from participating in something as exhilarating, enjoyable, and unique as a FIRST championship.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

For some people using the AP credit in college may be the right move, however I personally am extremely grateful I chose not to. It gave me a chance to get used to a college schedule while learning material I was already familiar with. It allowed me to really get acclimated to the atmosphere of college classes. Many students I knew struggled with the first few classes and I would guess only about 40-50% of the students that started as engineers in my class freshman year graduated with me.

Like I said it may not be right for everyone, but its something to consider once your heading towards college.

EDIT: For clarity, I am referring to classes that are in your direct curriculum. So for engineers, calculus, physics, chemistry etc.

-Brando

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Classes I could have done without in college as an Electrical Engineer at Georgia Tech:

• Psychology (the epitome of a chaotic cycle of conundrums that are never solved )
• U.S. History (it happened one way in high school; it still happened the same way in college)
• U.S. Government (Too centric on historical implications on current law; If I wanted to become lawyer I wouldn't have chosen EE)
• World Literature (True, I'm a terrible communicator in many respects -- but 1,000 years of historical literature in 3 months cannot fix that)
• Calculus I (was everything I learned in [non-AP] high school Calculus)

That's an entire semester of credits! Oh the things I could have done with an extra three months of time during college (perhaps studied abroad in Lorraine, France)! I would have much rather taken an AP Exam and exempted out of those classes (bear in mind that I've been really good at Math since a very young age, so YMMV).

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

That sounds like a very unfortunate curriculum, clearly a repeat of HS, which was not my experience at all. I also had the fortunate circumstance of being taught Chemistry 101 and Calculus I and II by the chairs of those respective departments, who were very rigorous professors and definitely expanded outside of the AP topic coverage. My humanities classes covered subjects not typically available in HS classes, so they were at least new material, and we were allowed a choice of several topics for almost every semester, including fun topics like "the history of technology".

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Georgia Tech is bound by the Georgia Board of Regent's "Liberal Arts" clause, meaning that even the most technical of colleges in GA must conform to the set curricula of the State. The tradeoff is that for Georgia residents with a B or better GPA, tuition is free. Those classes only applied to the first 2 years anyways; the latter half of college was at least an order of magnitude more interesting (and difficult).

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

That is a good reason :D

One of my best professors went to Georgia Tech, Scott Bondi, but I digress...

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

I agree that most AP exams are breeze-like for those who should really be receiving the credit. I actually slept quite a bit during the AP Gov exam and got a 5. (Napped in Calc too, if I recall correctly.) However, I can't say I was a big fan of re-taking courses I could skip.

Like JesseK, I've found there are many more interesting opportunities in college to pursue in that time. The year's-worth of credits I came in with (and the ~8 extra I take a semester) have given me a lot of very interesting flexibility--several STEM & non-STEM minors/certs and great study abroad opportunities, even with an ROTC, robotics and band. Just something to think about.

There's a balance between how fast you want to go and how much (and well) you want to get done [s(t)=int(v(t) dt)]. It's different for everyone, but it's definitely worth considering. Then again, honors composition was one of the best college courses I've taken, so I'm pretty glad my school won't take AP credit for it. YMMV

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

I understand your point, but can you afford to pay (in both money and time) to take a class when you have already received credit for it?

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

He has a valid point, many of my peers who placed out of calc and physics classes got ahead for a quarter, then quickly very behind when they found their "college level physics/calc/etc..." didn't really prepare them for college level.

It's "cheaper" to take a class you don't need and pass it then fail the next and have to retake it.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

I haven't really seen this discussed yet in this thread, but in my opinion High School and especially extracurriculars are not only about the knowledge that you gain, but the memories and experiences that you have the opportunity to have. The Championship event is always a memorable one. You get to meet (most) all the people you read about here, see old friends, and see some of the best matches of the regular competition season. But moreso for this next year the championship event is sure to be even better than ever! It's the 20th Anniversary of FIRST and will also be host in a new city that seems to be very excited about this new partnership.

Obviously you need to take into account the academic effects and stresses it would cause, but I think you should also look at the positives of attending.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

I was thinking the much same thing, earlier this week. So you skip over most of your general education or breadth requirements or some of your basic math/science courses at the cost of getting hit with your sophomore classes earlier. (And I don't think it's just at SDSM&T that the freshmen who complain about homework are told, "just wait until next year, freshman--you don't know how easy you have it"!) If you can't handle the sudden slam of homework, made worse by not being used to the routine and taking "easy" classes while still high school, then testing out of them, then maybe the AP wasn't such a great idea.

I know that I probably couldn't have handled that. I actually retook both Calc 1 and Calc 2, in that order, because I wanted to a) raise my grade in both and b) make sure I knew the material thoroughly. (Unexpected bonuses: got the book for Calc 3 by taking them and confused a professor at the start of the school year.) At the same time, I took a full load of general education courses to help get into the rhythm of college life. It helped a bit.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

For some schools/majors/courses, your AP credit might be accepted and be enough (which means do take the exams seriously!), but this isn't true for all courses. The best bet is probably to talk to your advisor to get their advice on which classes you should probably retake, and which ones you don't need to. I say this because going against my advisor's and MIT's advice about which math course to take my freshman fall was probably my biggest academic mistake in college thus far - learn from my mistakes.

(MIT's advice for incoming freshmen is that if you got a 4 or a 5 on the BC Calc exam, you should skip single-variable calculus and go straight into multi-variable calculus. I was qualified to get the credit, but figured MIT is really hard, and maybe I didn't actually know the material as well as I thought I did. I went against the advice of MIT and my freshman advisor, and signed up for an accelerated course that reviewed single-variable and then taught all of multi-variable before the spring semester. It was a mistake- I was bored out of my mind during the review, and got nothing out of it. Then when multi-variable came around, it was all new material an accelerated pace which was just a little too much for me to handle. I would have learned the material better if I took their advice and went straight into multi-variable and learned it at a normal pace. Also, the A I got in single-variable didn't even count for anything... our first semester grades are hidden.)

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

to revive a thread......anyone having issues with significant numbers of team members not attending championships because of the AP exams? It is not all about the studying, more about the level of exhaustion and make up work in other classes that have some concerned. Just curious about other's experiences.

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

Given we are going to a "late" FRC regional this year and we have some students going to the VRC championships the following week, we negotiated with our principal that we would only go to Championships if we managed to win our Regional.

Otherwise our April would look like:
Week #1: Regional
Week #2: VRC Championship
Week #3: Spring Break
Week #4: FRC Championship

Our principal wasn't really happy about the missed class time prospects

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

And then there is Neil....:D

Re: To go to Championships...or not....
 

At my original high school, there was a hardwired policy that if you missed 15 days of school (excused or unexcused), you were considered absent for that semester and would receive an "I" in all of your classes because you had missed enough school to be considered absent. One of my friends skied competitively, and hit that 15 day limit. He was also the valedictorian... so that policy got bent a little bit. Missing class time isn't always the end of the world.

$500 in AP fees are saving me $50,000 in college tuition... I'm firmly in the "take the credit" camp.