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Doing FIRST in College
All across the nation colleges are starting back up, and freshman are beginning their college experience. I thought this might be an appropriate time to talk about becoming a robotics mentor as a college student...
I put a post up discussing some of my experiences, and recounting some of the advice I give to students beginning their college life: http://jvengineering.blogspot.com/20...n-college.html Those who know me, won't be surprised by anything there... ;) |
Re: Doing FIRST in College
Interesting post, I haven't witnessed this myself, but I know of one college student whose grades seriously dropped when he committed to too much FIRST.
Also, aren't there bigger/better/more challenging things to do in college, the BAJA competition is just one of them.... solar car... etc... |
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Yes preachy, but good advice. My own experience was to work my butt off with 18-hour class loads and 40-hour work weeks years 1-3, which meant my 6 hour last semester was a breeze (1 was a cleanup humanity) and I could easily mentor a team.
It makes sense that college mentors aren't great mentors in the teacher sense; however that totally ignores the ability for college mentors to show high school students new ways to learn things or even how mistakes are made by example. Generally speaking, college mentors are the closest-relatable mentors high school kids will have, so having someone to bridge the gap of the ages (a.k.a. knowledge paradox) may be useful. |
Re: Doing FIRST in College
Funny, I don't think John's musings are preachy at all. I think they are wise and it's very cool that he has shared his blog post here on CD.
I'm looking forward to reading the posts in this thread; bet it's going to be a great thread to find and reflect on down the road. The potential is definitely here. Thank you, John - Jane |
Re: Doing FIRST in College
Here's another thread on the subject, which reaches the same conclusion for only some of the same reasons: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=47004
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Re: Doing FIRST in College
I read this today after a few of the other mentoring threads, and I'm comfortable in choosing not to continue in FIRST (other than as a volunteer) this year and possibly next year. Its unfortunate, but I'd rather attempt a high GPA and a shot at good jobs than fulfilling a hobby.
Now, FSAE, that sounds like fun... Thanks JVN |
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I agree with John's point, good read.
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I am about to head off to college and I have read through a lot of the other thread on the subject and enjoyed this thread as well.
I know how busy college life can be, I (of course) know how demanding FIRST is, I just got an excellent job at a lab, and I intend to continue in my musical pursuits as well. That being said, I intend to (loosely) remain involved with both FIRST and my team. The one thing I am absolutely committed to doing is volunteering at my local regional. This is even easier for me than it is for most because my local regional is held on campus. As for my old team itself: I want to show up every now and then (maybe once a week) as a mentor. The team is struggling a little and I want to be able to support them. School will come far before any FIRST activities and I certainly wont try to spend more than a few hours a week there. |
Re: Doing FIRST in College
Great post, John
I am a freshman in college now and I think that you make a great point. Even with that I plan to stay involved with FIRST. NC State is hosting a regional kickoff and a regional and I will definitely be there. As for mentoring a team I am going to give it a shot. The last three years I was one of the leaders of my team and this past year attended about 33 of the 36 meeting we had. I noticed that most of our mentors weren't there everyday, most of them attending 3 maybe 4 meeting a week and half of those were on the weekends. I think that will work for me because I will still have time to study. One question that I haven't seen brought up in any of the other thread: Since the season take place in the spring, during most students 2nd semester of college, shouldn't they have time to adjust to college during the fall so they can do FIRST in the spring? |
Re: Doing FIRST in College
I'll mostly agree with John, but I'll pick at one of his points in particular:
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And just for those who haven't experienced working with a different team... Spoiler for Surprise:
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Re: Doing FIRST in College
Another thing I think is worth mentioning is that if you're planning or even thinking about mentoring while in college, you really should sit down with the mentors of that team and discuss what they expect from you. Just saying, "I'll show up when I can make the time" can be a big (and unintended) disservice to that team who is counting on you fulfilling your agreement.
Anyone have any experience like this? |
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But you make a very valid point that should really apply to all mentors regardless of attendance. |
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Hope this helps, Jason |
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There are lots of choices in college. The good new is that you can try different things and continue or change depending on how it goes.
2102 loves our college mentors. Both those from the community and returning team members. They and valuable and welcome on whatever schedule and commitment fits. We just reinforce that they are mentors now (not super members) so there role is support. One thing to think about is how "teaching" new skills and knowledge can help reinforce and integrate new learning. So mentoring can help college students lock in and advance THEIR learning. It also gives you quick feedback on what, in your first career, were good decisions, and what, might have modified knowing what you recently learned. |
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I'm probably going to end up saying few things in a lot of words. Fair warning. The succinct version is the obvious conclusion: Listen to JVN.
I was going to be the exception to the rule. I read that thread someone linked to. I knew that wouldn't be me. I'd already taken 2 college classes a year for two years. I was only on my team for a year, no one knows me as a real student anyway. FIRST couldn't get to me, I will do just fine. Nope. JVN's blog post is scarily accurate for my first year of college. While I didn't get a 13% on my Thermo midterm (that's next semester), to save my GPA I dropped below full load for a semester. That's a BIG DEAL, if you couldn't tell. You will potentially be faced with the choice between helping out a team of high schoolers and your own success, and you will face this choice before you even realize the consequences of your decision. I missed Calc classes, and didn't realize what I was doing until it was too late. I've been incredibly lucky with how some stuff worked out here, but I dodged a bullet and I KNOW it. Yes, that "could be you". It will be you if you think it won't. I thought it wouldn't be me. I'm saying this bluntly and not dancing around the subject because you need to hear it. It happens before you notice. At a time this year the leadership of the team I "mentored" was in question. At one time the thought in my mind was that I would take less of a load my sophomore year in order to better mentor that team. Read that sentence again. This is the kind of decision you will be immature enough to think is a good idea. If you're honestly mature enough to make these kind of decisions, you will do so well in college that you won't need this thread... On mentoring your own team. This will not work. Honestly, I am painting with wide brush strokes, but it's true. You will not be able to teach and inspire people on the same level as a professional mentor. The mentors and students already know you. You can't just change hats and expect it to work. There's really not much more to it than that. If you have a problem with this, I'll try and elaborate more... --- I feel it's important to note a few things that JVN didn't touch on directly, or at least in depth. Ask yourself at first why you want to mentor a robotics team. Mentoring, being a student... they're obviously not the same thing. Do you want to do it because you enjoy building a robot? Well, you're a mentor. Your job isn't primarily to build a robot. You have to want to be a robotics mentor because you want to MENTOR, not because you like the system you're mentoring in (though that helps!). If you TRULY see yourself wanting to use engineering to inspire students... then read everything I and JVN and everyone just said. But honestly, I think a lot of people that say they want to mentor in college, think about it before they even get there, and get ready to do that... I think a lot of you just want to be students some more, or "super students". There's plenty of programs for that. VRC has a College Challenge that's honestly really cool. Mini Baja. Formula SAE. Design / Build / Fly. (Fun fact: iCurtis and I go to the same college. He joined Design / Build / Fly instead of 2791, I did the opposite. He's graduating a year early, I have to hustle not to graduate a year late. I do not think this is a coincidence.) Anyway, my point is that I bet about 75% of FIRST students who want to be college mentors should really be doing cool stuff in college. The other thing I feel should be said that wasn't mentioned is that you do kind of have a "trial period". First semester freshman year is far easier than the rest, yes, BUT (and I say this very carefully) you can use it to gauge how able you would be to handle FIRST. If you falter from a perfect record, with lots of free time and never skipping class because you don't feel like it, maybe you can give it a try. If you don't, you are asking for disaster no matter how many times you tell yourself second semester will be different. If you are an idiot like I am, and decide to do it anyway, talk to the mentors on the team, or your advisor or trusted older friend at college. Have them watch for the warning signs, you skipping any classes or not studying for any tests. Have them let you know it's okay to miss a meeting; you can't be that important to the team as just a college student. If I set this up sooner rather than later, I would have done just fine mentoring Shaker. All of this being said, I fully plan to mentor 2791 again. Maybe this time I'll actually know enough to teach them something. But I'm not naive enough to think that I should skip classes for them, or that my role on the team is more important than a successful academic career. At least, I tell myself that now... I told myself that last semester too. ;) |
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I said this last fall: Quote:
There are so many neat things to do in college besides FIRST. Do something else! Meet cool people interested in the things you're really interested in. There's Formula SAE, Formula Hybrid, Design/Build/Fly, Solar Car Racing, AeroDesign, Steel Bridge, Concrete Canoe, MATE ROV, and the list goes on. Adam, Quote:
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FIRST isn't the problem, it's people being irresponsible (which I suppose is what John was getting at). I was pretty dead set on not doing FIRST when I came to my school, and evaluated (and went to...) all the clubs and activities that were available. None of them except FSAE had the combination of engineering challenge and competition that I desired, and FSAE was just not my thing. I determined the best mix of engineering exercise, leadership training, and just plain fun available to me was to mentor the local FIRST team. I still do a lot of design (and for local companies) for other clubs on request, but the FIRST team is what really gets my attention I admit, every once in a while I miss a class or skip a homework "for the team", but the absence of FIRST would not change that; if I were in some other program, I would occasionally do the same "for that team". Mentoring a FIRST team in college isn't bad; mentoring a FIRST team at great personal expense and/or exploring what other activities are available is. In my opinion, what's important in college (for engineering) is to learn the material, get respectable grades, and get some quality hands on design experience; the methods are up to the individual. |
Re: Doing FIRST in College
Chief Delphi is my main contact with the FIRST community these days. I don't mentor a team (none anywhere near); I only volunteer on spring break (if then); all that sort of thing.
Instead, I compete hard with the Aero Design team on campus. It's a different look at engineering, and it gets attention from employers. Robotics gets a bit more, but I can work with either one fluently. As for skipping class, there are 2 reasons that I do it. 1) I sleep in. Bad thing, I try not to do it, etc. 2) I have a school-sponsored activity that day (school policy is that professors can't punish you beyond your not being in class for the lecture if it's a school-sponsored activity). I don't skip homework (bad things happen, beyond grades slipping), but I might turn it in late if I have a school-sponsored activity like Aero Design and can talk the professor into letting me do that. (Failing that, I turn it in early.) What I do with FIRST/Aero Design, I do in my free time. (Admittedly, I try to structure my free time so that FIRST/Aero stuff gets priority...) |
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I guess this thread finally got me motivated to actually start posting.
I really agree with most of the comments in the thread but also I wanted to pass some of the advice I gave to the 294 graduating students in past year or so. First off JVN is right on. I am glad that he spent the time to make this post to highlight his experiences. As a mentor who only heard of FIRST when finishing my masters I could never be in the position that you graduating seniors are in. My recommendation to our students was similar to what has been recommended. Try new things, look for new clubs. Get involved with the college community. Get out of your comfort zone once and a while. Have fun! You only get to be an undergrad once! However the number one thing I stress is that you are going to college to better yourself. You or your parents are paying very good money to enable your future success. You need to remember that your primary occupation at this time is a student. This is what you are first and formost; make college your life. I know most of FIRST students are great people and are really giving and want to give back to the FIRST community. But for once I would say that you need to be selfish. You need to spend the time experiencing college and maxing out the amount you can gain from your college of choice. Mentoring can wait until you are ready... FIRST will still be here! In the end the choices are our own. I know I have made my mistakes and I know you students will make your own. In the end, I wish you all the best of luck! Study hard and enjoy the ride. |
Re: Doing FIRST in College
All of the mentors on team 125 are college students, or very recent college grads. I've seen dozens upon dozens of college mentors go through our team. Some are able to succeed right away (very very rarely) while most flounder for almost the entirety of their careers on the team. Very few are able to stick with the team through all 5 years (Northeastern is a 5 year school), but the few that do become very proficient mentors.
FIRST is tough on college students. In my opinion, FIRST is not designed for college students to have a very active role in it. Just like how you grow a lot (physically and emotionally) through high school, you do the same through college. A high school senior on the team, who has participated for the last 4 years is almost identical in experience to a college freshman joining a team in the fall. Literally only a couple of months of summer separate these two. To think some magic transformation will occur over those months is slightly ignorant in my opinion. The way our team operates, utilizing college mentors as pretty much the only mentor support, creates numerous obstacles we have to hurdle. At the end of the day, we are a successful FIRST team, that inspires our high school students and helps the community. However, it burns college students out left and right. Like I said above, some are able to get through the rough patches and develop into amazing mentors, but along the way there are many college mentors who burn themselves out. I agree with everything JVN said, but I also understand how tough it is to let go of something you really care about. My recommendation is to take at least 1 year off from FIRST if you truly insist on being a college mentor. Give yourself time to develop as a person and gain some know-how. Looking back on when I joined my FIRST team as a college freshman, I realize I had people telling me the same thing and I didn't really listen. I wish I would have because I think it could have really helped me in the long run. Good post JVN. -Brando |
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I'm not trying to be holier-than-thou and insist that everything I do in FIRST is in the selfless interest of Shaker's students, but I am in FIRST first and foremost to inspire them. |
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As someone who is heavily debating whether or not to become involved in FIRST in college, I've found a lot of interesting points in this thread, both for and against.
I've definitely got some thinking to do. |
Re: Doing FIRST in College
There are a lot of great points in this thread. I would like to add one that I haven't read yet.
You are possibly stealing opportunities from the High School Students. This is especially true if you are at the same team you just finished up with last year. If you were a senior leader last year, many of the younger students will still look to you for that leadership. This means they are not looking for this leadership from their seniors. Would you want to steal this opportunity? If you just graduated, and are dead set on helping FIRST, talk with the local Regional about helping them find sponsors and volunteer at the regional. Learning the other side of FIRST will make you an especially valuable mentor later on. |
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Maybe in a few years. |
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I participated in the Chem-E car challenge, sponsored by AIChE, and participated heavily in Formula SAE. Programs like these are the next logical step beyond FIRST in order to further develop professionally and technically. Off the top of my head: AIChE Chem-E car, FSAE, Baja SAE, Clean Snowmobile, Super-milage, Solar Car, FSAE-Hybrid, SAE Aero, and all of the IEEE contests... there are many more I am sure. I would encourage any FIRSTer going into college to take another plunge into the unknown and try a new challenge. What I learned in FRC served me very well in FSAE and Chem-E car, and what I learned in those programs is now serving me well as an FRC mentor. Quote:
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Especially coming out of Freshman year into your first co-op cycle, it's hard to differentiate yourself. You've all taken (more or less) the same classes up to that point, and few (basically none) of them are really specialized towards what you'd be doing specifically at any co-op position. I'm not saying that you should automatically mentor a team just to put it on your resume. Especially given that you already have FIRST experience from when you were in high school. But, having things to separate yourself from the crowd and the networking connections you make through FIRST can be very helpful in finding a desirable co-op. GPA is important, especially in terms of landing you an interview in the first place. But it's far from the only factor that weighs on an employers mind. |
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That being said, starting a new competition team seems like a challenge any active FIRST student could handle when getting to college. |
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-Brando |
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Thanks for the insight, Sean and Brandon.
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I was a founding member of Cooper's FSAE team my freshman year, and a founding member of the AIChE Chem-E car team my Sophmore year. Both teams were fairly low-budget for their respective competitions, yet very successful. I've found that fundraising for a college organization is much easier than fundraising for FIRST because of the alumni network, and most sponsors recognize colleges more so that high schools. Schools will also supply a good bit of money to professional organizations, like FSAE, by directly funding them or through purchasing equipment, paying for travel, etc. |
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However, that being said, my time as a mentor on 1646 during my time at Purdue was some of the most fun and rewarding experiences I've had on a robotics team as a mentor. The three Purdue teams are pretty unique because not only do you have your college and adult mentors from your own team but you also can lean on the other two Purdue teams for support. It's a great organization and I would definitely recommend getting involved. |
Re: Doing FIRST in College
Hmm...I am a second-year college student mentoring my local FRC team, so I suppose I should add my experiences from last year (my freshman year and first with this team).
First, I will note that yes, I ended up spending way too much time doing FRC things during my second semester. I wanted nothing more than to see my team succeed, so I worked as hard as possible toward that end. And yes, my grades during that semester were lower than they should have been. It's hard for me to completely blame FIRST for this, however; the ultimate reality is, despite my heavy involvement with FRC, I had the time to do my homework, and I had the time to go to class, but I didn't aways use that time appropriately. I was not mature enough to handle the time management necessary to do FRC and college at the same time. Second, I had (and still have) difficulty understanding my role on the team as a mentor rather than a student. I'm afraid that last year I did a bit too much of the engineering myself, because I wanted the team to do well, and in the stress of college + build season I temporarily forgot that FIRST isn't about the robots, but about the students (high school, that is). I also tried to take control of too many things at once; being very excited about my new opportunity for leadership I wanted to lead everything, which didn't go over well with the experienced professional mentors on the team who have been leading for years. On the other hand, mentoring the team last year was still an amazing experience. The students and I developed an amazing sense of community and friendship - almost family. I received several compliments from adult mentors that I was one of the greatest kinds of mentors the students could have, being so close to them in age and experience. I myself continued to learn about engineering and gain valuable technical skills; the team even allowed me and other college students to use the lab during the off-season to explore other engineering projects. It was an amazing experience - what I have come to know and love from FIRST. So, now starting my second year in college and with the team, I'm in a position where I can give a small bit of advice about last year, and I need a lot of advice for the years ahead. I'm glad this thread exists, as it has inspired me to think about myself, my college career, and how FIRST can best continue to benefit me. As others have said, the FIRST community is very generous, and as us recently-graduated students got so much out of the program, we immediately want to start giving back to it. But the reality is, college students are still growing. We are still gaining from the world around us, and we are not yet ready to give back as much. Just as a second grade student cannot teach first grade, a college freshman cannot mentor an FRC team in the same sense as a professional. That is not to say I'm convinced we don't have a place on FRC teams at all. Seeing as last year had some difficulties but also some strong points for me, I'm going to remain involved and give this year another chance. But I am certainly changing my perspective a bit. I'm joining the solar car team at my school, getting more involved in my academic studies, and making sure I get my priorities right this time: academics, work, and extracurricular activities at school will dominate my schedule, then FRC will fill in the gaps. And I'm definitely going to talk with some of the senior mentors on my team about my role and how I can better fit in. |
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